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Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW


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10 hours ago, Adarsh Sant said:

How many of those 13 were 6th overall or higher picks?

 

I'm not saying Virtanen is a bust and has no chance at the NHL.

 

I'm saying Virtanen is a bust for 6th overall standards. He still has a decent shot at the NHL either way.

 

Common, he is still a teenager!  Shane Doan was a complete flop till his early to mid 20's.  Same with Bertuzzi, Lucic etc.  Its the same as people saying Petterson is a second liner.  If the guy was 20lbs heavier he would have been 1rst overall.  But because no one watched him over the year he was a bad pick as much as Virtanen is a bust.  

 

I will eat crow if Virt isn't a solid 2nd liner in 2-4 years

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4 hours ago, TheYjUstMaKeYoUwooZy said:

 

Common, he is still a teenager!  Shane Doan was a complete flop till his early to mid 20's.

To be fair, Jake isn't a teenager anymore. He's 20 and turning 21 this summer.

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If he was going to put a serious offensive game together, I think he would have done it by now.... at least against AHL defenders.   Even that hasn't happened.

 

Jake looks destined to be a 3rd liner to grind out his career.  I'm not saying a light bulb might not turn on in his head - I just find it unlikely.

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2 minutes ago, kloubek said:

If he was going to put a serious offensive game together, I think he would have done it by now.... at least against AHL defenders.   Even that hasn't happened.

 

Jake looks destined to be a 3rd liner to grind out his career.  I'm not saying a light bulb might not turn on in his head - I just find it unlikely.

The one glimmer of hope we have is Jake has never been fit, or light, like he is now.  Before he played with poor fitness, and (to be blunt) he was fat.  Let's see the new slim, and fit Jake.  I believe his skills will shine, and he will score us 20 + this season.

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4 hours ago, Alflives said:

The one glimmer of hope we have is Jake has never been fit, or light, like he is now.  Before he played with poor fitness, and (to be blunt) he was fat.  Let's see the new slim, and fit Jake.  I believe his skills will shine, and he will score us 20 + this season.

I hope you are right.  With Jake I know his conditioning was in question, but it is his IQ that worries me the most.  That's the kind of thing that either you have it or you don't, and I dont think he has it.  So regardless of good skating or a decent shot, I just don't see him likely to be top 6 material.

 

But there is still time for him to put it together, so I haven't lost all hope.  Yet.

 

 

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1 hour ago, kloubek said:

I hope you are right.  With Jake I know his conditioning was in question, but it is his IQ that worries me the most.  That's the kind of thing that either you have it or you don't, and I dont think he has it.  So regardless of good skating or a decent shot, I just don't see him likely to be top 6 material.

 

But there is still time for him to put it together, so I haven't lost all hope.  Yet.

 

 

I accept it seemed his hockey Q was not great.  I think being fat and out of shape likely made every part of the game harder.  It's not so easy to make nice plays, or even think straight when you're always gassed.  There is a bright future for Jake, but I don't expect him to become more than a Jannik Hansen player.  Not bad though, I guess.

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1 hour ago, kloubek said:

I hope you are right.  With Jake I know his conditioning was in question, but it is his IQ that worries me the most.  That's the kind of thing that either you have it or you don't, and I dont think he has it.  So regardless of good skating or a decent shot, I just don't see him likely to be top 6 material.

 

But there is still time for him to put it together, so I haven't lost all hope.  Yet.

 

 

Not really.  A player can be 1/5, 2/5, 3/5, 4/5 and 5/5.  5/5 is elite hockey sense, 4/5 is good, 3/5 is average, 2/5 not good, 1/5 probably wouldn't even have played bantam.  So Jake was 3/5, which makes him average.  He has the ability to anticipate the game situations and to learn to be effective at both ends of the ice, while utilizing his teammates.  It's all about ice time, game situations practice and the determination to succeed.  That's why he's been playing in Utica.

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3 hours ago, higgyfan said:

Not really.  A player can be 1/5, 2/5, 3/5, 4/5 and 5/5.  5/5 is elite hockey sense, 4/5 is good, 3/5 is average, 2/5 not good, 1/5 probably wouldn't even have played bantam.  So Jake was 3/5, which makes him average.  He has the ability to anticipate the game situations and to learn to be effective at both ends of the ice, while utilizing his teammates.  It's all about ice time, game situations practice and the determination to succeed.  That's why he's been playing in Utica.

By who's standard?  From what ive seen of him, he would rate a 2 at best.

 

This is the same reason Yakupov never succeeded imo.  There is skill there, but anticipating the play and proper positioning are key to exploit those skills.

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31 minutes ago, kloubek said:

By who's standard?  From what ive seen of him, he would rate a 2 at best.

 

This is the same reason Yakupov never succeeded imo.  There is skill there, but anticipating the play and proper positioning are key to exploit those skills.

I get A laugh when people sit on their computers and actually try to predict anything Canucks. Jakes iq was good enough to get him drafted 6th overall. Right around where many scouts had him pegged. Based on first his shoulder than making the club only to have his confidence shattered, to showing up out of shape and being basically spending all of the last year correcting the mistakes he and WD did on him it is unfair to say he has little Iq or he is A bust. He has spent all of the last year and this summer getting into shape. Last 10 games of the season he looked like the kid we drafted. I also think some people play better in the NHL compared to the Ahl. Jake is one of those guys IMO He thrives on that feeling you get when you're at the top of your profession.

 

Look at baseball players. They will go to single A for rehab and go o for 4 or allow 10 runs on 15 hits. Being in the show brings out more in some people I hope im right and Jake is that kind of guy. 

 

All in all not worried about him. He is committed. And last year in my eyes was the real star of his career. given the injury. WD screwing him up and showing up overweight. He was rushed from the start and it screwed with his development. This year he will prove the haters wrong and score 20 get 50 points and knock MT MCdavid JG on their asses.

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7 hours ago, bp79 said:

I get A laugh when people sit on their computers and actually try to predict anything Canucks.

 

7 hours ago, bp79 said:

This year he will prove the haters wrong and score 20 get 50 points and knock MT MCdavid JG on their asses.

:huh:

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7 hours ago, bp79 said:

I get A laugh when people sit on their computers and actually try to predict anything Canucks. Jakes iq was good enough to get him drafted 6th overall. Right around where many scouts had him pegged. Based on first his shoulder than making the club only to have his confidence shattered, to showing up out of shape and being basically spending all of the last year correcting the mistakes he and WD did on him it is unfair to say he has little Iq or he is A bust. He has spent all of the last year and this summer getting into shape. Last 10 games of the season he looked like the kid we drafted. I also think some people play better in the NHL compared to the Ahl. Jake is one of those guys IMO He thrives on that feeling you get when you're at the top of your profession.

 

Look at baseball players. They will go to single A for rehab and go o for 4 or allow 10 runs on 15 hits. Being in the show brings out more in some people I hope im right and Jake is that kind of guy. 

 

All in all not worried about him. He is committed. And last year in my eyes was the real star of his career. given the injury. WD screwing him up and showing up overweight. He was rushed from the start and it screwed with his development. This year he will prove the haters wrong and score 20 get 50 points and knock MT MCdavid JG on their asses.

No, Jakes IQ was not good enough to get him drafted 6th overall.  His speed and size is what got him drafted 6th overall.  If he wasn't the big guy he is, there is no way he gets drafted that high.  He was an aspiring stereotypical "power forward", which is what was assessed we needed after generally being manhandled by Boston.  I say his IQ is poor because he doesn't read the play well enough to be in the best positions he can be in order to use his skill.  He can't seem to find an inside track to drive to the net much of the time because he hasn't got that first jump on the defender.  So despite his speed, he often ends up no closer than the hashmarks when he shoots and that isn't where he needs to be.  Jake needs to drive to the net and use his size to cause disruption.  That's what a power forward does.

I will agree that he has had some adversity in his career so far, but that is nothing new or uncommon.  Plenty of players have found a way to work through such events.


As for the last 10 games of the season being what you consider good play from Jake, I remind you that in the last DOZEN games of the season he managed two goals and one assist.  .25 ppg against AHL defenders, in a section of time that you feel he played his BEST hockey of the year.  I'm sorry - but that isn't going to cut it.  This guy should be scoring minimum double that but ideally triple if he was headed to be the top six player we thought we were drafting.  Now, you say he will be more driven to score in the NHL, but don't you think he should be driven to even MAKE it to the NHL, which can only happen if his play improves?   I just simply disagree that he will be so driven when in the NHL that he will not only improve his point totals, but do so against far better competition.  It doesn't make statistical or logical sense.

Oh, and as already pointed out by another user - you say you laugh as people predicting things, yet you did exactly that.  The difference is that my prediction came from reason, logic and history, whereas yours came from a "feeling" you have, and perhaps a hesitance to admit that Jake has all but busted from his draft position.  Don't get me wrong - I still think he will be an NHL player, but I think he has a 3rd line ceiling at this point.

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17 minutes ago, kloubek said:

No, Jakes IQ was not good enough to get him drafted 6th overall.  His speed and size is what got him drafted 6th overall.  If he wasn't the big guy he is, there is no way he gets drafted that high.  He was an aspiring stereotypical "power forward", which is what was assessed we needed after generally being manhandled by Boston.  I say his IQ is poor because he doesn't read the play well enough to be in the best positions he can be in order to use his skill.  He can't seem to find an inside track to drive to the net much of the time because he hasn't got that first jump on the defender.  So despite his speed, he often ends up no closer than the hashmarks when he shoots and that isn't where he needs to be.  Jake needs to drive to the net and use his size to cause disruption.  That's what a power forward does.

I will agree that he has had some adversity in his career so far, but that is nothing new or uncommon.  Plenty of players have found a way to work through such events.


As for the last 10 games of the season being what you consider good play from Jake, I remind you that in the last DOZEN games of the season he managed two goals and one assist.  .25 ppg against AHL defenders.  I'm sorry - but that isn't going to cut it.  This guy should be scoring minimum double that but ideally triple if he was headed to be the top six player we thought we were drafting.  Now, you say he will be more driven to score in the NHL, but don't you think he should be driven to even MAKE it to the NHL, which can only happen if his play improves?   I just simply disagree that he will be so driven when in the NHL that he will not only improve his point totals, but do so against far better competition.  It doesn't make statistical or logical sense.

Oh, and as already pointed out by another user - you say you laugh as people predicting things, yet you did exactly that.  The difference is that my prediction came from reason, logic and history, whereas yours came from a "feeling" you have, and perhaps a hesitance to admit that Jake has all but busted from his draft position.  Don't get me wrong - I still think he will be an NHL player, but I think he has a 3rd line ceiling at this point.

The argument that is used about Jake being a more effective NHLer than AHLer is that Jake doesn’t have the right line mates to play with in the AHL to produce offense.  He’s a scorer and he needs a play maker to get him the puck.  While this is true, it does point out to the fact that he’s not a play driver.   He’s not the type of guy to take the team on his back and get things done, he’s a passenger. 

 

That’s not necessarily a bad thing, there are lots of successful/ effective passengers in the NHL and they can become an important piece to a team.  Every team needs their complementary players and at this point we hope that is what Jake can become.    

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39 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

He’s a scorer and he needs a play maker to get him the puck.  While this is true, it does point out to the fact that he’s not a play driver.   He’s not the type of guy to take the team on his back and get things done, he’s a passenger. 

Ok, so now that is a point that makes sense rather than saying simply that his drive will increase in the nhl.  And I agree- we didn't exactly have a top center last season in Utica.

 

I'm not keen on him being a passenger - as you call it - and only believe that contributed rather than being the main reason for his low scoring.  But still, it is a very valid point I oddly didn't consider. 

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, kloubek said:

Ok, so now that is a point that makes sense rather than saying simply that his drive will increase in the nhl.  And I agree- we didn't exactly have a top center last season in Utica.

 

I'm not keen on him being a passenger - as you call it - and only believe that contributed rather than being the main reason for his low scoring.  But still, it is a very valid point I oddly didn't consider.

There are some effective passengers.  I'd call Kessel, Vbrata & Vanek some of the best passengers. 

 

but with that said, a complimentary player is a far cry from the game changing power forward we thought were getting when we drafted him 6th overall

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57 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

There are some effective passengers.  I'd call Kessel, Vbrata & Vanek some of the best passengers. 

 

but with that said, a complimentary player is a far cry from the game changing power forward we thought were getting when we drafted him 6th overall

Fair.  For example - Tanev is entirely a complimentary player as well but he's excellent in that role.  Granted, that's on defense which makes that fact a bit easier but the same concept applies, whereby it allows other players to do what they do best.  In this case, I can see Virtanen gaining the line then passing off to a playmaker while he then drives to the net and waits for the pass or screens.  

 

You're right though.... It is unfortunate that he doesn't look to be a driver but there are never guarantees in drafting and I maintain he can still be an effective player for us - just not quite the same way and level we were hoping for. 

 

Man.... Now more than ever not selecting Nylander is coming back to bite us.  Imagine:

 

Dahlen Petterson Nylander

Baertschi Horvat Boeser

Granlund Sutter Eriksson

Goldobon Gaunce Dorsett

 

That's one hell of a likely solid forward squad, with Gaudette, Palmu, Lockwood, Lind and Gadjovich further potentials or replacements should development not go as expected.

 

Makes you realize both the forward depth we now have as well as how close we are to having a cup-competing lineup in a 2-3 years.

 

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