Dekey Pete Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 We have skilled players on the farm last time I checked? Skilled guys don't always score, you'd have to watch the games to get a feel for how they have been playing. Who knows they could have run into a few hot goalies and Jensen could been robbed for 4 or 5 goals and hit 6 posts already this year. Just saying that looking at the scoresheet alone is not telling a lot after only 4 games. But my point is we don't need guys who hit the post 6 times, we need people who can finish! Burrows had that season last year, hard working, constantly robbed on goals. While he is praised for working hard, we need actual points in order to win games! I get that a 4 game sample is not much to look at, and that's why I don't think there will be any ground breaking changes quite yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bp79 Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 2nd line is not the issue. All the pieces are there, just need to get the lineups set and that starts with putting Kassian on the 2nd line RW. He's clearly the best player for that considering how the players have played thus far and honestly, putting him there is the best scenario for everyone and his own development. Don't need to fix the 2nd line, need to fix the defense. Their mess ups lead to goals and we lose he lead and it's hard to comeback. Besides that, Nucks have outplayed all their opponents and are pouring the offense on. Just need to score a bit more (2nd line producing would be nice), tighter defense, and we're good. And great thing is JB has already said he's open to adding a dman if a team makes one available so no need to stress. Everything is in good hands. No need to be so reactionary and have knee-jerk reactions after every loss. It's only 4 games in I agree for the most part. Edler has been reallly good sbisa has been good, Tanev hasn't been his consistent self, hammer bad couple of last games bieksa has been ok stanton hurry back he's a stud, and webber is just terrible. Nedd to clean things up we left miller out ot dry lastnight. Our offense has been pretty good lots of shots just not enough finish from the second line. I would like to see vey and kass along with bones. have a 3rd of higgierichie and burr and a 4th of mathias bo and dorsett. And if mathias continues to play as inept as he has i say bring up Gaunce. All in all i like this team people need to realize this is the 3rd system in 3 years they have to learn so expect some growing pains. I can't stress enough how much i'd like to see a second of vey bones and kass burr and higgie are great 3rd line guys. I feel sorry for bones you see him trying to make the nice play but his wingers are more suited to crash and bang and get dirty goals. No shame in that just a waste of bones skill. Hell a 3rd of buhiggie bo and burr would be a good mix as well. Is it just me or is hanson and mathias done. ya he scored big woop I just see them both skating around a lot not doing much. burr and higgie have looked great on the pk like i said elite 3rd line shut down guys. Bieksa needs to stop taking dumb penaltys And what a bad move putting vey on the 4th line his teamates couldn't keep up with him forcing dorsett to take a penalty. oh well I do think were playing pretty good hockey once we clean things up switch a few players around were gonna be fine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-- Alexander 89 Mogilny -- Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 I want to see what happens with Horvat back. I'd like to see: Sedin - Sedin - Vrbata Bonino - Horvat - Kassian Burrows - Richardson - Higgins Vey - Matthias - Hansen That 3rd line could be a very good SHUTDOWN line IMO. I think this solves our faceoff issues too. This team is literally 3 pieces away from being a very good team: Shutdown Dman or another Hamhuis type (Paul Martin next year?) Puck moving Dman (Bring Ehrhoff back?) and a top 6 winger Top 6 could simply be solved from within, With Shink/Jensen/Horvat waiting in the minors and Kassian waiting for a shot I want our roster next year to look like: Sedin - Sedin - Vrbata Shinkaruk - Horvat - Kassian Jensen - Bonino - Vey Burrows/Dorsett - Richardson - Matthias Hamhuis - Martin Tanev - Bieksa Edler - Ehrhoff I'd like to trade Edler away too but thats dependent on how he does this season. We could replace him with Stanton or Corrado if we pick up a couple of D-Men. I also have no idea if this fits under the cap, it probably doesn't, but if we can move some other pieces (Hansen, Burrows) I think it fits. Moving Edler would free up 5 million also if I remember correctly (NTC, I know). Getting rid of Edler/Burrows/Hansen(ALL NTC's...I know) should free up ~10 million which I think can net us Martin/Ehrhoff or 2 other D-Men. Of course we still have to sign some players and some will require raises as well. We should look to showcase Lack this year as well so we can net a decent return in the offseason...no point in making him wait until he's in his late 20s to play a starting role. Unfair to him, and we have Markstrom waiting who is killing it again in the minors. Another underrated player I would LOVE to sign in the offseason is Antoine Vermette. Faceoff specialist that can score. Great fit here IMO. But that would likely mean we leave Shinkaruk in the minors for one more year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-- Alexander 89 Mogilny -- Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 Players at or entering their prime years include the much maligned Edler (28), Tanev (soon to be 25), Sbisa (24), Weber (26), Stanton (25), Bonino (26), Matthias (26), the enigmatic (will he or won't he) Kassian (26), Dorsett (27), Vey (23) and Sestito (27.) Kassian is 23 but I agree with most of what you said, but we're not too far from being a good team again. Got some young pieces, need to move a couple players if possible and sign some also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Doctor Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 I think they should put Hunter on this line RIGHT NOW! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THERETOOL Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 I'm hoping that this continues and we see benning trade some of our older assets for picks and youth .. if your gonna go down , go down making it count .. also won't hurt to finish a little lower too .. not tanking just being conscious of the future Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khay Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 I agree with the overall point, but think the Canucks would be incredibly lucky for it to be only a year or two. The Canucks are really a mess. To illustrate, consider what their level would be if the twins were to be hurt or fade to a hanging on level with age. Take them out of the lineup entirely and what is this team like? The core is old by NHL standards. Would anyone argue that the twins, Vrbata and Hamhuis are the best or nearly the best players on the Canucks? They are 34, 34, 33 and almost 31 (52 days short of 32.) Other over-30 players include Burrows (33), Bieksa (33) and Higgins (31.) Does anyone want to argue that any of them will be as good in two years as they are now? Richardson is 29, Hansen 28. They can be solid defensively but aren't ever going to be very good scorers-in fact, they're already at an age where average offensive production goes down. Players at or entering their prime years include the much maligned Edler (28), Tanev (soon to be 25), Sbisa (24), Weber (26), Stanton (25), Bonino (26), Matthias (26), the enigmatic (will he or won't he) Kassian (26), Dorsett (27), Vey (23) and Sestito (27.) Of the skaters in their prime years, it seems to me that the only one who has proven he can play at a very high level is Edler, who is coming off a disastrous season. My read on the rest of them is: -Bonino, Stanton, Tanev are solid players and will remain so without achieving stardom -Kassian could be a star, or he could be an enigmatic contributor-he's still developing -if Vey doesn't get better at faceoffs or learn how to play wing he's going to be marginal -similarly for Sbisa-he still needs to develop consistency in positioning and with the puck to be better than marginal -Weber, Mattias, Dorsett and Sestito are and will remain marginal players What does this mean? Our really good players are old. Our prime age players don't form a core one can build a team around. As our old players get older, their contributions will decrease-and there's isn't enough under them to replace them. The point of all this? Our best players are old and what is coming up behind them, the players supposedly in their prime NHL years, are not. When our old players are no longer on top, what is behind them is a massive void with a few hopeful bright spots. That leaves, of course, the prospects-who in a year or two will still be young players, most of them still trying to establish that they can play in the NHL. That's no knock on the prospects-other than that there is no Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux or Crosby there-but simply a function of age and experience. Since our old players are aging and the players behind them don't appear good enough to carry a team to a high level, that leaves waiting until the prospects are near their prime-which is more than a year or two away, or hoping to get exceptionally lucky in the trade/free agent market. Good analysis. When 1999-2005 core players left, the Sedins and Luongo took over so naturally that we barely noticed the gap. The current core, the way I see it is, -Sedins still have at least two more 60-80 pts seasons in them. -Vrbata is here for two years and he will produce alongside the twins. -Burrows is basically done. What made him effective is basically not there anymore. -Higgins will be a solid 3rd liner but he can be replaced. -Hamhuis is also no longer a top-2 dman he once was. He is and will be a top 4 dman for a couple more years though. -Bieksa still has few more years of good left. This means, that we have 2-3 years window to develop the young players to determine if they are the type of players that you build around or not. Well, that's gotta start this year. The Sedins will keep the team going in that process so that these young players don't get thrown to the wolves like the Edmonton kids. I'd bring up Jensen and Shinkaruk sometime within this year and give Bo more than 9 games so that he cannot be sent down to junior. If he doesn't perform, he can play in the AHL, which will be better for his development than junior. For example, he can continue to master his faceoff expertise against professional players. Next year, Virtanen should be given a hard look to stick with the team and even 9 game tryouts. Same goes for McCann. Including Vey and Kassian, that makes Jensen, Shinkaruk, Horvat, McCann, and Virtanen as possible core players for the next generation. My hope is that about 3 or 4 of these players will stick and show that they will become the new core within two years. I'm guessing that Virtanent and McCann won't be ready within the two year window but Kassian and Vey are near ready with Jensen just a step or two behind. Shinkaruk and Horvat is unknown at this point in time. We will and should find out by the end of this year. Now, here's the bigger problem. We don't have a top 2 defender, in terms of defensive capabilities. I'm not including players like Karlsson, Subban, or Doughty as top 2 defenders in terms of defensive capabilities. They are Norris caliber players because of their elite offensive skills coupled with top 4 defensive abilities. You just simply don't win championship without defence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry Goose Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 Sedin - Sedin - Vrbata Bonino - Horvat - Kassian Burrows - Richardson - Higgins Vey - Matthias - Hansen Ungh please no Kassian on the 2nd line. I don't understand why everyone wants him in the top 6- he ain't gonna produce that kind of offense. IMO he is better in the bottom 6 where he can focus on playing aggressively in both ends of the rink, and chip in some offense. Although Vey is still working on his game, I see him as a more dynamic offensive player. And Horvat as 2nd C over Bonino? Yikes. Sedins Vrbata Burrows Bonino Vey Higgins Horvat Hansen Matthais Richardson Kassian Horvat can hopefully handle the workload and defensive zone play. 4th line can push for mins depending on how they play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nino Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 Good analysis. When 1999-2005 core players left, the Sedins and Luongo took over so naturally that we barely noticed the gap. The current core, the way I see it is, -Sedins still have at least two more 60-80 pts seasons in them. -Vrbata is here for two years and he will produce alongside the twins. -Burrows is basically done. What made him effective is basically not there anymore. -Higgins will be a solid 3rd liner but he can be replaced. -Hamhuis is also no longer a top-2 dman he once was. He is and will be a top 4 dman for a couple more years though. -Bieksa still has few more years of good left. This means, that we have 2-3 years window to develop the young players to determine if they are the type of players that you build around or not. Well, that's gotta start this year. The Sedins will keep the team going in that process so that these young players don't get thrown to the wolves like the Edmonton kids. I'd bring up Jensen and Shinkaruk sometime within this year and give Bo more than 9 games so that he cannot be sent down to junior. If he doesn't perform, he can play in the AHL, which will be better for his development than junior. For example, he can continue to master his faceoff expertise against professional players. Next year, Virtanen should be given a hard look to stick with the team and even 9 game tryouts. Same goes for McCann. Including Vey and Kassian, that makes Jensen, Shinkaruk, Horvat, McCann, and Virtanen as possible core players for the next generation. My hope is that about 3 or 4 of these players will stick and show that they will become the new core within two years. I'm guessing that Virtanent and McCann won't be ready within the two year window but Kassian and Vey are near ready with Jensen just a step or two behind. Shinkaruk and Horvat is unknown at this point in time. We will and should find out by the end of this year. Now, here's the bigger problem. We don't have a top 2 defender, in terms of defensive capabilities. I'm not including players like Karlsson, Subban, or Doughty as top 2 defenders in terms of defensive capabilities. They are Norris caliber players because of their elite offensive skills coupled with top 4 defensive abilities. You just simply don't win championship without defence. This is a great look at things and why I'd like to see higgy and Hansen traded now to make room for some youth now. I don't see it as a significant downgrade and if we have a two to three year window to bring in the young guys then we should be getting more youth in now. We may need to trade one or two of them for some D prospect, or trade higgy and Hanson for a D prospect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggins Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 Did you watch any of the games? I didn't so I can't say this for sure how there doing but if your going off points alone without seeing the games you could be 100% wrong as far as how they have been playing. I'm 100% right on their point totals. I'll go out on a limb here and say the NHL is tougher than the AHL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallstreetamigo Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 NHL Cliche Jargon needs to be banned "NEW NHL" its not new "Serviceable player" what is he servicing? serv·ice·a·ble ˈsərvəsəb(ə)l/ adjective fulfilling its function adequately; usable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Karlsson Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 Vey and Kass should be on the 2nd line with Bonino. That line obviously isn't the greatest defensively but it doesn't really matter at this point. We need scoring and we can make 2 checking lines that can go against the othe top offensive players. Sedin-Sedin-Vrbata - primary offense Vey-Bonino-Kassian - seconday offense Higgins-Horvat-Burrows - checking line a Matthias-Richardson-Dorsett/Hansen - checking line b If this line up ever gets tried out I'm pretty sure it will work out a lot better then the Higgins-Bonino-Burrows line, what a mess that line is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chalky Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Vey and Kass should be on the 2nd line with Bonino. That line obviously isn't the greatest defensively but it doesn't really matter at this point. We need scoring and we can make 2 checking lines that can go against the othe top offensive players. Sedin-Sedin-Vrbata - primary offense Vey-Bonino-Kassian - seconday offense Higgins-Horvat-Burrows - checking line a Matthias-Richardson-Dorsett/Hansen - checking line b If this line up ever gets tried out I'm pretty sure it will work out a lot better then the Higgins-Bonino-Burrows line, what a mess that line is. I agree with those lines. If we need to fill a roster spot due to injury any of line two can move, Vey to line 3 or Kassian to line 4 and bring up Shinkaruk for the few games he will get in the NHL this season. It's only 5 games in but I really want to see what roles Willy D defines for certain players. Let Burr focus solely on a defensive role and I bet he pops in 10-15 with 5 SH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sxqhfeh Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 I don't know if it has been stated, but this is how I would look to make my lines. D. Sedin - H. Sedin - Vrbata Higgins - Bonino - Kassain Tanev - Mathias - Burrows lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyhee Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Rather than cling to the veterans like a security blanket the Canucks should be using this season to get their young players going. Then maybe next season we will have them ready to step into the same holes we have had with these veterans on our lineup for three years. That raises the question of what is best for the development of the young players-playing in the NHL or playing in the minors. I happen to believe that in general they should come up slowly and time in the minors is good for most young players. The AHL is a fair-sized step up from junior hockey so the kids get to player bigger, stronger and more experienced players while not being overwhelmed by skipping the step. The AHL also allows them to mostly work on their games without the overwhelming media and fan scrutiny in Vancouver. So, getting their "young players going" could mean playing one or two in the NHL or playing them in the AHL. Mostly I am in favour of the AHL until, like Vey did with the Monarchs last year, they show they've gotten ahead of that league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyhee Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 I see a lot of posts, some on this thread and some on others, suggesting Vey as a second line LW. I'd been under the impression he played C and sometimes RW and that he hadn't been effective on the wing. Has he played LW in the past? Was he comfortable and effective there? Has he looked effective as a winger on either side? I'm aware that he has skill but is poor on the dot and that it is possible for him to adjust to a new position, but am just looking to find out if he's played on the left side and if he's been effective as a winger previously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 and this can actually work if the team plays a very hard/ defensive focused game.... funny how as much as people hate torts, he certainly was right...there isn't the players here to play the style willie / fans / mgmt wants... torts saw that and figured the only way to win was play a hard, defensive focused game...problem is we dont have those type of players either... i think the reality is, fans need to accept we are in transition here....we are a 'tweener' team, that needs an injection of the youth who are not ready, and until they are we will struggle with an identity and also have to play a solid team game to get to the playoffs... I think linden and benning did a good job marketing and spinning change this year but really we've seen very little change that addressed the holes we had...we've replaced but not improved much... the hope was the twins/burr/edler and a team improvement overall would get us to the playoffs...what we are seeing now is simply blaming those few players wasn't correct, our issues are deeper. we are not a fast, counter attack team like we were in 2011 we are not a young fast team that plays with energy we are not a big bruising team that can punish... that's the nhl now..you have to be one of those above to be successful... I love these guys, and want to see them succeed, and its not that they lost tonight that bothers me, its how they lost...too earily similar to last year....a few more of these bad losses and the demons in their heads come back... lets hope for a great bounce back on thursday and maybe a goalie who steals us a game if needed This is a really good post. I do disagree that Torts was as on track with how we needed to play defensively. In any case, having the Twins playing straight up against top match ups was wrong. Certainly in neutral zone and defensive situations. That had significant impact because they were not available for O'zone starts. And our offense suffered as nobody else was capable of bringing up the difference. Then it fell apart as they started to get hurt, again playing hard hockey. We should realize the single biggest lesson is how bad we are when we cannot rely on them to score. Secondarily, we could and can still can be a fast counter attacking team. And that also was on Torts. Sitting back clogging the defensive zone, even when you turn the puck back over is not conducive to a counter attack game. By comparison having speedy forwards like Hansen and Burrows attacking the point when they have the puck causes opposing D to make faster decisions and plays. The great ones, Keith / Doughty, do score some. More become sloppy and turn the puck over passing into the slot or the half board under pressure. Then you already have a Hansen high stretching the opponent for a breakout. We did NONE of that last year. That stretch also opens up space and lanes underneath for our D to breakout. As much as the results are mixed this year. Its starting to happen. And we do have better players for it this year. We have loads of speed on our 4th with Dorsett, Matthias and Hansen. Remember, Sestito was out taking penalties last year, not fore checking. Dalpe nor Schroeder were getting in nobodies face. Which is the key to counter attack. Here is where we need time to get good at that game again. What I do believe is at issue is Willie D has not yet found identities for the 2knd & 3rd lines. Richardson and Kassian, with Vey currently are creating some some pressure. And scoring some. But at the core I am not sure Higgins and Burr should be primary offensive players? I dont like playing them in offensive situations with Bonino. In my mind they are work horse players, battlers. Take advantage of that. They should be playing hard nose D, mano a mano, with Richardson (until Horvat finds his game?). And it should eat up a lot of minutes. But that is also when those type of players score anyway; creating pressure and in counter attack. Let more talented play makers Vey and Bonino play with Kassian. Role them out in the offensive zone whenever the Twins need a puff. Really, that would be the 3rd line the way I brand things. But who cares. Its about roles and identities that suit skills. We just need to swap our 2c and 3c IMO and adjust roles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeefGormley Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Next thing you know, someone will eventually make a redundant thread with the title "when r we goin 2 tnk 4 mcdavid" Seriously though, JUST GIVE KASSIAN SOME TOP 6 MINUTES AND SEE WHAT HE HAS TO SHOW US! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 I'm hoping that this continues and we see benning trade some of our older assets for picks and youth .. if your gonna go down , go down making it count .. also won't hurt to finish a little lower too .. not tanking just being conscious of the future Oops, time to tank when we're 3-2? Trading your older assets, go down making it count is blowing it up. Not competing... I am so confused ... Did folks here really think that this team was a contender this year ?? wow ... I am the biggest canuck fan I know but at least I live in the real world . This is just part of the growing pains of a rebuild .. yeah , its gonna be a tough year but thats how bad teams get better . We will pick high in a solid draft and the kids we already have will have only have gotten better by next year .. maybe Im crazy but this is actually kinda fun to watch as a fan . Lets face it , almost every team we face this year got better in the offseason . Most were better than us before they even made changes . I believe that benning and trevor already knew this , and brought in miller and vrbata to at least give the team hope each night . They have done exactly that for the most part . pardon the pun but Its a process people I quoted you out of order, this post ^^ was first. Just to show how quickly, just 36 minutes , you went from "its a process." We're re-building, be patient... "Its actually kinda fun to watch as a fan." To trade the old bastards and blow it up. Oh; ''won't hurt to finish a little lower too." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asian player Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Give it a couple years, and we'll see Virtanen/Shinkaruk, They'll be the sniper that can actually finish with Kassian's feeds. Also, either Horvat or McCann will be able to fill into the 2c position if everything goes well. At this point, we're in a transition period so fixing the second line is optional at this point IMO, and in a couple years, the kids will step in. I'm more worried about finding that 1C and a D group that can actually play Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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