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[Discussion] - End product


Burgilny896

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Hopefully the Canucks will be sniffing at or around 8th place when the trade deadline comes. That's when you can get a rental or two in order to improve your chances. The only problem is that the Canucks don't have much to offer in a trade. The prospect pool is in relatively rough shape and the 2015 draft is just too deep to offer up any picks.

I have a feeling this is going to end up being a write off year for the Nucks.

Wut? :blink:

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Pretty true, actually. But coming from a Sabres fan, it's relative. They've been selling and stocking for years now, while we cannot afford to lose any of our prospects. Should not deal picks either. Not at rebuild time.

I disagree, this isn't 2011, we are probably in the top half of the league in terms of prospects actually, these last two years have been great as far as re-stocking the pool.

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Wut? :blink:

The 'Nucks have quality in the system, but it is lacking quantity. It can definitely be rectified, but the Canucks still have another couple of playoff runs left in them before the Sedins retire so there won't be much selling of current players. The next two drafts are very crucial for the future of the franchise (especially 2015) because that's where the Canucks can make up the quantity aspect.

I want to see a near future SC final between the Sabres and the Canucks.

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I disagree, this isn't 2011, we are probably in the top half of the league in terms of prospects actually, these last two years have been great as far as re-stocking the pool.

Here's a quick Google search to help prove our point:

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/team-rankings/spring-team-rankings-2013-14/page/3

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2108713-re-ranking-every-teams-prospect-pool-after-2014-nhl-draft/page/11

There was a couple more, but these two give a general idea.

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Trading anything for rentals this year would be a huge mistake.

Short of getting one heck of a deal for something like a 4th round pick, I agree. Nice thing about rentals is that if they enjoy their time with the club there's a chance that they'll re-sign with the team.

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I feel as if this thread is an over-reaction to a bad week of hockey.

This team has certainly shown it's capable of contending for a final play off spot, no doubt in my mind about that. They definitely need to figure out their consistency on defense, and the 4th line needs some work, but I like what I've seen so far.

I would really like Matthias to get off the slide, as he's almost been invisible out there. If all else fails though we could see Bo come and take his minutes.

We played a good all around game today against the Capitals, and showed how good we are capable of playing. We limited them to 22 shots, 8 beneath our average. The only area we didn't beat them was in hits and give-aways. We played good hockey tonight. We need to keep that up and see just how we stack up against the better teams in the league when we're not shooting ourselves in our own foot.

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So we're less than 10 games into the season and people think this is the roster we're going to carry for the full year? And that prospects in the AHL won't have a chance to compete for spots? Never mind Horvat who will return to the roster in a week or so? Or that Benning won't look at making moves at the deadline if we're competitive and still need help?

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The Hockey's Future site still has Jordan Schroeder in the top 5 & Zac Dalpe is listed as graduated.

And the Bleacher report is the bleacher report, they have Toronto & New York as the next 2 ahead of us, need I say more?

Corey Pronmann of ESPN had us a #9, and Last World on Sports had us at #14.

The 'Nucks have quality in the system, but it is lacking quantity. It can definitely be rectified, but the Canucks still have another couple of playoff runs left in them before the Sedins retire so there won't be much selling of current players. The next two drafts are very crucial for the future of the franchise (especially 2015) because that's where the Canucks can make up the quantity aspect.

I want to see a near future SC final between the Sabres and the Canucks.

I see it a bit more the other way, I see some good quality, but more-so quantity, I see players who can be good/great NHLers but no one with franchise type potential.

I mean our forward group has alot of great names, we are very deep in net in the system, defense is a weak point but we have a few decent guys there.

I just disagree in general, the notion for a few years has been that our prospect pool is horrible, but over the last few years it has been improving and after the last 2 drafts, I don't see how you could say the Canucks prospect pool is bad.

Calling the Canucks prospect pool top 15 in the league is definitely fair.

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The roster we have on the ice as of right now, surely can not be the end product can it?

Is this the group Benning and Linden are content with going forward?

I hear people saying about recent games, like the Colorado game for example, that the Avs were do for an explosive game, but they just lost to a bottom feeder in the Jets earlier today after blowing us out, and have lost to 6 or 7of their last 9 opponents.

And you hear about our roster, that we need to wait and see what we got, they are getting used to a new system and new teammates. (Isn't that what pre season is for)?

I know its still early in the season, but what is the end goal for this season? What are we looking forward too?

Every time we lose, its, oh that one player lit us up or they are a contender and top team so its ok.

So I ask, is this the group we are supposed to wait for, to get it together? Or will there be more done about putting together a group that can compete with the top tier teams in the west?

What can be done to bring the Vancouver Canucks back to being the gold standard of the league?

Discuss....

Neither Linden or Benning set that as a goal. The goal was to be competitive for a playoff spot. Anything can happen from there. And a handful of preseason games for most won't be enough to adjust to a new system and develop new chemistry.

Despite getting blown out a couple of times I've really enjoyed watching the games so far this season. Something I couldn't say last season even before Xmas when we were winning. Didn't like the Torts hiring and didn't like the style of play under him. Enjoy this season with several new faces in and an uptempo game. At least it's not boring.

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The Hockey's Future site still has Jordan Schroeder in the top 5 & Zac Dalpe is listed as graduated.

And the Bleacher report is the bleacher report, they have Toronto & New York as the next 2 ahead of us, need I say more?

Corey Pronmann of ESPN had us a #9, and Last World on Sports had us at #14.

I see it a bit more the other way, I see some good quality, but more-so quantity, I see players who can be good/great NHLers but no one with franchise type potential.

I mean our forward group has alot of great names, we are very deep in net in the system, defense is a weak point but we have a few decent guys there.

I just disagree in general, the notion for a few years has been that our prospect pool is horrible, but over the last few years it has been improving and after the last 2 drafts, I don't see how you could say the Canucks prospect pool is bad.

Calling the Canucks prospect pool top 15 in the league is definitely fair.

I hope you're right and I'm wrong. I really really want to see a SC final between the Canucks and Sabres within the next 5 seasons.

I would of course have some good natured trash talk going on with the rest of CDC. Although that did seriously backfire on me during the Olympics. ^_^

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Really tough to say where the Canucks are at so far. We beat Calgary and Edmonton twice, sure, but that's expected and we didn't exactly look great doing it. Got clobbered by Tampa and the Avs, but those were both the second game of back-to-backs in different cities, and with the backup goalie in, so you can't read too much into it either. We beat St. Louis, but they were under the weather wit some sort of ailment. Beat Washington but they played the night before in Calgary. Got blasted by Dallas, but like they said on the broadcast everyone there knew about the Gaglardi/Aquilinis thing, they were amped up for it.

I don't think you can take anything out of any of those games. What you can take out of the whole pattern of it so far, for me, is that there are a ton of new faces this season and the team was always gonna need some time to gel, and they are hanging in there and not falling off the pace even in the early going when everything's still coming together. What's encouraging is that they are a fun team to watch, there's lots of chances, lots of excitement and a high pace...and at least some of a doom-and-gloom crowd around this town have been backed down a bit by the generally diminished expectations. When the best-case scenario is third or fourth in the division and a wild-card spot for the playoffs, it chills everyone out a little. Well, except those hacks at the Province but you can't pay them any mind.

This upcoming road trip down to California is going to be the big thing. If they can just break even on that points-wise it will represent some real progress.

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i i like the on ice product i think they play the upbeat high tempo game that entertains the fans and keeps the players interested. but i don't think they have the horses to compete with the best teams. and the cost of going younger is mistakes. the offense has been good so far but against teams with good faceoff guys this team will/does get destroyed. the d core is average at best with no true #1 or even #2 guy the vets are slower and still try to jump in as the system seems to demand but the coverage and ability to recover has been exposed numerous times.

to compete with the upper class of the league this team needs a #1 d-man, a (NHL) face specialist and some wingers that actually hit.

the two biggest concerns NHL ready depth at both center and defense. a couple injuries and this team this team could be in a tough spot.

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I am sure Benning is always assessing the Canucks situation.

As of right now we sit just ahead of Dallas in the west at #7, both teams have 10 points in 8 games.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/standings.htm?season=20142015&type=CON

Calgary and SJ are just ahead of us with 11 points in 10 games.

We have 2 games in hand. Assuming we win at least 1 of the next two games, we would be sitting 5th in the west.

With all the BS and changes considered this season, not to mention coming off of last season. I think we are doing very well.

I think Benning and Co. can see where they are weak by now. Now they just have to find a player to fill that roll and a team willing to part with that player. Once teams start getting players on their LTIR, the trades will pick up.

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The 'Nucks have quality in the system, but it is lacking quantity. It can definitely be rectified, but the Canucks still have another couple of playoff runs left in them before the Sedins retire so there won't be much selling of current players. The next two drafts are very crucial for the future of the franchise (especially 2015) because that's where the Canucks can make up the quantity aspect.

I want to see a near future SC final between the Sabres and the Canucks.

Be careful what you wish for. You will end up hating one of those teams.

I know this; as a former Boston fan. :sick:

Getting back to the 'discussion'...

This topic has been discussed to death. I think most people are happy with watching some good, competative hockey. This is a transition year and we are prepared for the likelyhood of either not making the PO or having a short run. The eyes are on the future.

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The roster we have on the ice as of right now, surely can not be the end product can it?

Is this the group Benning and Linden are content with going forward?

...

but what is the end goal for this season? What are we looking forward too?

...

is this the group we are supposed to wait for, to get it together? Or will there be more done about putting together a group that can compete with the top tier teams in the west?

What can be done to bring the Vancouver Canucks back to being the gold standard of the league?

"What can be done to bring the Vancouver Canucks back to being the gold standard of the league?"

Well, there are a couple of things that could be done:

1. Trade, trade, trade, use our prospects and future picks on veterans to improve the team now. Of course, the team is bad enough that it would be really difficult to find a way to make the Canucks "the gold standard of the league" this season or next-and some day, with a shortage of prospects and picks because they've been traded, it gets far more difficult.

2. Tweak here and there where you can, without giving up prospects that the team still has hope for or much in the way of draft picks, develop players and hope to become the gold standard in a few years.

Frankly, the difference in approach strikes me something like the difference between those who tend to spend now on what they want now, using household debt and assuming they'll be able to deal with retirement and later credit problems and those who tend to spend and save conservatively, avoiding debt.

In case there's anybody out there for whom it isn't obvious, I think approach #1 is terribly short-sighted.

The answer to that is, if you want to see the Canucks become the gold standard of the NHL, wait a few years. Trying to get it now is unlikely to work, it raises the somewhat more likely scenario that in a few years the proverbial cupboard will be bare and the team will be thrashing around in the depths for years to come.

When you ask if this is the end product, though, of course the answer is no. Expect some trades. There may even be major trades, and they could be helpful. Occasionally a trade can be found that can be very helpful without mortgaging the future-for example, the '91 trade of Butcher and Quinn for Courtnall, Ronning, Momesso, Dirk and a 5th, or the '87 trade of Patrik Sundstrom, a 2nd and a 4th for Greg Adams, Kirk McLean and a 2nd. In addition, there are trades of one player whose development seems stalled and who may benefit from a change of situation for another player in a similar situation-like the trade where Vancouver got Markus Naslund.

One trade you can expect to see sometime this season (it has to be made before the end of the 2015 training camp) is that Vancouver will trade a goalie. If they don't, they lose one on waivers next fall.

I don't think, however, that the present management of the Canucks is going to go for mortgaging the future and I hope they aren't silly enough to trade picks or prospects for older players or rentals.

t

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We need one more top six forward and a PMD. If we want to go on a run this year this is what it should look like:

Sedin - Sedin - Vrbata

_____ - Bonino - Kassian

Higgins - Horvat - Burrows

Matthias - Vey - Hansen

Richardson, Dorsett

Hamhuis - _____

Edler - Tanev

Sbisa - Bieksa

Miller

Lack/Markstrom

We have future top 6 wingers, even centre's in our prospect pool. The PMD?

Will be great to add Trymakin's size, should he make it, someday as well...

For once, our stars are playing like stars. Miller has been great, the Sedins are forming one of the league's best lines again and Edler is actually playing like what we've always expected of him. The problem now is our depth players.

The 2nd line has been good at times, not great, and our bottom-6 have been brutal. Our 4th line is one of the worst in the NHL and is getting victimized by teams again and again, with Matthias and Hansen in particular really disappointing. On defence, Sbisa has been brutal and Hamhuis-Bieksa are really showing their age.

Our 4th line has played great the last couple of games. We can draw advanced statistics and say their possession stats are poor. And it would be true.

But its the 4th line! Watch the games. WD has had the confidence to give them 3rd period shifts, taking draws in our end against lines like Ovechkin's. And they are playing 10 to 12 minutes a game. In back to back games, sometimes 13 minutes. And we're winning said games. That is a solid, credible contribution from the 4th line and I'm excited they could be put out there for it! And you are under rating them.

What is worth noting, and in the absence of Kesler (or Malhotra), this second line you are praising is now a offensively geared line? Yup, Bonino with Higgins and Burrows scored the last few games. It used to be a league top two, premiere shut down line.

And we lack a true shut down / stopper line. Inclusive some necessary size is a notable issue. The 4th should be taking secondary scoring line match ups. Not Ovechkin! After this home stand we have the Cali road trip. And that ability to stop huge men, who are also dynamic offensively is a issue. See Pavelski, Perry, Marleau, Kopitar, Hertl, Brent Burns, Carter, Smith Pelly, Getzlaf, don t laugh Maroon, Thornton, Kesler... This is where our identity has to evolve. I believe we will actually be in trouble if our 2knd line remains Bonino, Burrows, Higgins and is offensively geared.

The first solution, no doubt, we will see is 210 (ish) lb rookie Horvat. Who adds beef, face off's, positioning and battle intensity. Then speed and counter attack, also some size, is Jensen. In and amongst we have to craft one of our 2knd or 3rd lines into one we see taking those 3rd period defensive zone draws against top teams!

The second solution is that guys like Kassian, and Jensen have to step up. What we really need is our 2knd line to have dynamic scoring talents to surround Bonino. Not our best worker bee's (Higgins and Burrows). It will take time, but we will be much better when

Danny / Hank / Vrbata

Jensen / Bonino / Kassian (Gobs of size, speed and puck skills for Bonino to work with)

Higgins / Horvat / Burrows (there is your stopper line, that can also go back up ice!)

But Kassian and Jensen flat out, and simply, have to outplay Higgins and Burrows to earn that role!!!

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I think it is going to be pretty much a 'what you see is what you get' situation here this season.

There isn't going to be a white knight prospect or unbelievable trade that vaults the Canucks past their rivals in California to take their place amongst the best of the west. No...this is exactly what it seems (at least to the majority of posters here on the forum), we are re-tooling this year and expectations should be tempered to reflect this.

If you thought Vancouver were going to be world-beaters because they signed Miller and Vrbata, I admire the enthusiasm but no, those moves were simply to keep the boys competitive while we sorted things out and prepared for the future. This is no reason to be upset however, clearly the management team recognizes the fairly rapid decline (that Gillis sadly seemed to refuse to admit) of the club and is now taking steps to alleviate some of these problems, which is never a bad thing.

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