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Santorelli (+2nd Rounder) versus Vey


JeremyCuddles

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Another example of our recent prospect is Cody Hogdson. Sure, he may be a victim of mismanagement and collapse under media pressure, however, he has showed far more top 6 potential when he first suited for the Canucks than Vey has this year. Look where he is now.

Hodgson had 1 goal and 2 assists in 20 games when he first suited up for the canucks (2010-11)

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You misunderstood me.

You do not have to be a flashy player, but something has to show you are cut above the rest of the opposition in more ways than one to prove you are a top 6 NHL caliber player.

Physicality, speed, ice vision, shot, playmaking, faceoff (for a C), stickhandling... out of these criteria, Vey has not shown, even for a moment, he excels in any. The reason why I mentioned how he obtained his points is due to the fact he has been a beneficiary in the majority of it.

If you are talking about good passing, Kassian has shown far superiority in that department. Kassian also possesses a better ice vision. Yet, many on this board label him as nothing more than a solid 3rd liner, despite Kassian having the superior edge in physicality as well.

Another example of our recent prospect is Cody Hogdson. Sure, he may be a victim of mismanagement and collapse under media pressure, however, he has showed far more top 6 potential when he first suited for the Canucks than Vey has this year. Look where he is now.

Look, I'm not crucifying Vey. He is a perfectly fine NHL player. I was just indirectly replying to this thread that I don't think Vey is worth Santo and the 2nd, as I don't see a clear indication Vey has all the raw tools to become a top 6 player.

I think Santo would have done a better job now, and the 2nd could have poached us a player of Vey caliber or higher for the near future.

Or it could have lead to a complete bust, which most 2nd rounders are...

There is a difference between trading a second for an aging bottom 6 dman who is going to leave in the summer via free agency, and getting a young, talented centre who has been marinating in the AHL within a very good system.

I don't know Vey's future, but I have confidence he'll have a much more successful NHL career than the average second rounder.

You can credit his points to the Sedins, but how well has Hansen done with the Sedins? Not just any player can slip into that role successfully.

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Of the Dmen the Canucks could have selected in the second round:

Roland McKeon (50th overall) has 7 points (all assists) in 18 games.

Jack Dougherty (51st overall) is -8 with 1 assist in 6 games for Wisconsin.

Brandon Montour (55th overall) is playing a PPG pace, but he is 20 and still playing in the USHL.

Johnathan MacLeod (57th overall) has two points in seven games at BU.

Alex Lintuniemi has 6 points in 15 games for the 67s.

Maybe Benning et al. didn't see anyone they really liked at the D position for a second round pick.

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AV, when he first got here promoted all kinds of guys because he thought they were good enough and in his system a fire hydrant would have been good.

I guess I will start to question the coach's ideas on somethings, so far he has been pretty much been in the background BUT when Vey gets #1 PP time without trying out anyone else, it is bound to discourage some of the other players.

Entitlement is a bltch and not exactly a team builder.

IMO Fox could do what he does and maybe better.

Think of it, the Nucks already had something like 9 centers in their system and then traded for another, what sense does that make.

Hope the kid starts showing up on the scoresheet with other than being set up by the Sedins.

are you real??

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Hodgson had 1 goal and 2 assists in 20 games when he first suited up for the canucks (2010-11)

Hodgson had 1 goal and 2 assists in 20 games when he first suited up for the canucks (2010-11)

I didn't make the assessment by the numbers they have put up on the sheet. The sample size is far too low for that method.

If you have watched Cody's games, and now Vey's, you will realize the difference in skill level these two candidates have demonstrated... and I'm not even a Cody lover. Cody showed moments where he could elevate his game and create chances, whereas Vey has really been the beneficiary.

Vey could turn out to be a good complimentary winger, not in the same mold but similar role to Higgins. However, Higgins has more speed and physicality than Vey (and this is taking into consideration Vey's defensive game will improve with years). But then, how many of us truly believe Higgins is a legitimate top 6 NHL forward?

Or it could have lead to a complete bust, which most 2nd rounders are...

There is a difference between trading a second for an aging bottom 6 dman who is going to leave in the summer via free agency, and getting a young, talented centre who has been marinating in the AHL within a very good system.

I don't know Vey's future, but I have confidence he'll have a much more successful NHL career than the average second rounder.

You can credit his points to the Sedins, but how well has Hansen done with the Sedins? Not just any player can slip into that role successfully.

Or, it could lead to a solid pick, especially with JB's scouting background.

I can go on and list you some amazing, and some solid 2nd round picks, but I also do agree a lot of them turn out to be tweens and busts.

It is a hypothetical issue so there is no right or wrong answer, however my point was Santorelli would have done a better job for now, and that 2nd could have netted us the depth we required for the future. I mean Jensen showed just as much success last year in a similar role. I don't see an upgrade in Vey over Jensen.

As aforementioned, I see Vey more of a complimentary winger, and those aren't too hard to find in drafts, or as free agent signings.

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It's early but, so far, rookie Vey's outscoring 7 year pro Santorelli at half the price.

I cetainly agree with your first 2 words.

At this very early stage, after 18 games, at even strength, both have 5 assists, Vey has 1 g. Vey has won 39.6% of his faceoffs for the Canucks and is -4 for the Canucks. Santo is +5 with 47.9% faceoffs won for Toronto. Both teams are even +/- at even strength (Canucks with 41 g for and against, Leafs 39.)

What does all that mean?

Very little. It suggests, in a very small sample size, that they're close in scoring with Vey having a small edge, with Santorelli having an advantage in faceoffs and defensive play.

Vey is cheaper and is an integral part of the Canucks power play.

But this answers Amish's Vey vs Santorelli comparision, which isn't a valid way of looking at the transactions. It's Vey vs the value of the 2nd round pick, plus if Canucks would have otherwise signed Santorelli the value of what Santorelli produces now. (That doesn't take into account differences in pay-which will change after this season as both Vey and Santo have contracts that will expire after this season.)

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I've got no qualms regarding the notion of Vey vs a 2nd rounder. I've watched the game long enough, that I can appreciate it's a fairly reasonable calculation.

The issue(in this context) is basically Santo & 2nd vs Vey. There may be more to it, than we fans know. Perhaps they were afraid about Santo's recovery? Maybe his demands were excessive? Likely they wanted to set Willie up with a few familiar faces, etc...

For the most part, with JB's scouting exp/knowledge, they likely see upside in Vey, which will be realized in the future. Yet with how excited most CDCers are about Gaunce, Horvat, Cassels & McCann(JB's first pick) it appears to me as a surplus in one area, with a deficiency at D remaining a virtually unanimous agreement.

Santorelli was offered a deal here according to Linden. The problem was term. He wanted a multi-year deal, while the team was only offering a one year deal. Santo overestimated his value after missing almost half the season. Although he performed well enough last season, he's still a player trying to get his game back on track. We know part of the plan is to get younger over the next few seasons. Which is why he was only being offered the one year term. In the end Santo wound up taking a one year deal anyway.

Even had Santo signed a one year deal I would have moved our second for Vey. You see Vey has been developed well and saves us the three or four years of developing that second rounder. Assuming the second rounder turned out at all considering the low percentage involved. Vey was a good deal for now and the future. Santo was redundant as an aging tweener we already have an abundance of.

So yes, I'd take Vey and the years of development he saves us over Santo and the second.

You can never have too many centers in the system. Many teams have centers playing wing and we've done it before ourselves. Remember Linden playing 3rd line RW with Kesler at center? It's a boon to have this kind of depth for the inevitable injuries that will occur. Not to mention having a solid second choice if the center is waived out on a faceoff. You wind up with too many you just have future trade pieces.

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I cetainly agree with your first 2 words.

At this very early stage, after 18 games, at even strength, both have 5 assists, Vey has 1 g. Vey has won 39.6% of his faceoffs for the Canucks and is -4 for the Canucks. Santo is +5 with 47.9% faceoffs won for Toronto. Both teams are even +/- at even strength (Canucks with 41 g for and against, Leafs 39.)

What does all that mean?

Very little. It suggests, in a very small sample size, that they're close in scoring with Vey having a small edge, with Santorelli having an advantage in faceoffs and defensive play.

Vey is cheaper and is an integral part of the Canucks power play.

But this answers Amish's Vey vs Santorelli comparision, which isn't a valid way of looking at the transactions. It's Vey vs the value of the 2nd round pick, plus if Canucks would have otherwise signed Santorelli the value of what Santorelli produces now. (That doesn't take into account differences in pay-which will change after this season as both Vey and Santo have contracts that will expire after this season.)

I'm not concerned about Vey's faceoffs at this point. In 03/04 Keslers was 40.2% after 28 games as a rookie. In his first full season (05/06) he finished at 46.8% after 82 games.

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Here's my take on the re-tooling of the Canucks that we've witnessed over the past six months...

JB/TL have assembled a competitve line up that will battle its way into the playoffs. Vey and Santorelli are essentially equal in my eyes. So, having either or would have facilitated the short term objectives JB/TL have for the Canucks.

JB/TL are builiding a team that will legitimitely compete for Lord Stanley in 2-3 years. Vey fits that plan...Santorelli doesn't. Vey will be a 25 year old with two years NHL experience under his belt (and could very well be a legit second liner by then, playing with Virtanen on LW and Bonino at C) and Santorelli will be a guy clearing waivers to help add "veteran depth" to an AHL team.

So, Vey >>> Santorelli + 2nd rd. pick for where we want to go in the near future. Now, that could all fall apart if Vey's development follows the same path as, say Santorelli. Then the rationale in my post will be totally hooped.

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Santorelli 6' 189 lbs: 29 yr old 7 year veteran with 8 pts in 18 games.

Vey 6' 189 lbs: 23 yr old NHL rookie with 9 pts in 18 games.

Who do you think is more likely to become more than he currently is?

/thread

How many of his points are from the Sedins on the PP? People see points but don't realize the game is more than goals and assists.
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Santorelli was offered a deal here according to Linden. The problem was term. He wanted a multi-year deal, while the team was only offering a one year deal. Santo overestimated his value after missing almost half the season. Although he performed well enough last season, he's still a player trying to get his game back on track. We know part of the plan is to get younger over the next few seasons. Which is why he was only being offered the one year term. In the end Santo wound up taking a one year deal anyway.

Even had Santo signed a one year deal I would have moved our second for Vey. You see Vey has been developed well and saves us the three or four years of developing that second rounder. Assuming the second rounder turned out at all considering the low percentage involved. Vey was a good deal for now and the future. Santo was redundant as an aging tweener we already have an abundance of.

So yes, I'd take Vey and the years of development he saves us over Santo and the second.

You can never have too many centers in the system. Many teams have centers playing wing and we've done it before ourselves. Remember Linden playing 3rd line RW with Kesler at center? It's a boon to have this kind of depth for the inevitable injuries that will occur. Not to mention having a solid second choice if the center is waived out on a faceoff. You wind up with too many you just have future trade pieces.

Well, it's a reasonable counter, & I'm willing to have my arm twisted on this one. I just hope you & JB are correct.

Will be a big plus if Vey should fulfill his potential. Another good point is that he appears a humble kid(certainly soft-spoken), who appears to have strong character.

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I'm pretty good with a mostly developed, young Vey over a much older Santorelli and the second.

It's nice to play the "what if...?" game, but the odds are that Vey becomes a better asset than what the team might have gotten from the pick, and the several more years of potential playing time here that Vey has over Santorelli (who is a pretty good player) makes the deal a good one for the Canucks.

regards,

G.

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How many of his points are from the Sedins on the PP? People see points but don't realize the game is more than goals and assists.

3 PP points in 53:52 PP ice time from the point and 6 ES points in 191:44 ice time. Vrbata only has 6 ES points in 222:27 ice time and plays with the Sedins full time. Any more questions?

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Well, it's a reasonable counter, & I'm willing to have my arm twisted on this one. I just hope you & JB are correct.

Will be a big plus if Vey should fulfill his potential. Another good point is that he appears a humble kid(certainly soft-spoken), who appears to have strong character.

Every player move has some risk to it. Santo would have been nothing but a stop gap between now and youth coming in. Vey provides youth that is NHL ready saving years of development time. Vey is low risk with potentially a much greater long term reward.

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Did I miss the part where Benning said he wasn't signing Santorelli so he could trade for Vey? The question should be Vey or Some other pick.

As far as I remember Benning didn't sign Santorelli cause he didn't see him our future. I don't think that if we didn't trade for Vey Santorelli would be here.

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Did I miss the part where Benning said he wasn't signing Santorelli so he could trade for Vey? The question should be Vey or Some other pick.

As far as I remember Benning didn't sign Santorelli cause he didn't see him our future. I don't think that if we didn't trade for Vey Santorelli would be here.

But perhaps the team only offering a one year deal speaks to the "didn't see Santorelli in our future" question, no?

regards,

G.

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How many Even strength points does Santo have versus Vey?

all 8 of Santo's points this season is even strength points. But I think comparing Santo and Vey is a moot point and irrelevant. It's Vey vs. 2nd rounder (McKeown) given up to acquire him. Santo didn't accept the 1-year deal Canucks were offering him and we let him walk. That's just part of the business. Also the key is a 29-year old journeyman center is easily available at a low price. Also signing him to more than a year means taking away a roster spot for younger guys for that period. Most of our forwards are locked up with contracts, it's just smart management not to lock up another one, as good as he was for us pre-injury.

Vey vs. 2nd rounder should be a no-brainer. LA wouldn't have given him up if they had a roster spot for him. If JB saw any prospect dropping to our pick worth keeping over Vey, he wouldn't have traded for Vey. I trust JB's scouting and assessment.

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bruh no one cares about the 2nd rounder. it would be 4 years later until that pick is in the nhl. vey > santorelli now because skill and age and potential

You say nobody cares about the pick as it's four years down the line but then say you'd pick Vey over Santo because of potential.

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