Monty Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Dan Hamhuis, Jason Garrison - Van Ryan Suter, Zack Parise, Keith Ballard - Min Roberto Luongo - Fla Had to be more specific, I guess. I meant players that are originally from said city/state/province. Luongo - not Suter - not While it does happen, it doesn't happen nearly as often as people think it happens or as much as they wish it happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaudette Celly Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 David William Naylor @TSNDaveNaylor 1m1 minute ago "They (Phaneuf and Kessell) are untradeable...they are both grossly overpaid."--former Leaf exec @RealBillWatters on #mackoandcauz #tsn1050 In a salary cap league, there are always ways to overcome bad contract situations. In the NBA, Washington had three absolute anchors in long-term $10mil per year contracts, in players that were mediocre at best and the team was going nowhere. I thought they were hooped for years, but they managed to get out of them. Yes there may well be some temporary hard pills to swallow, but once they're down you can start moving ahead. The alternative is that you do nothing and keep spinning your wheels. Likewise it was suggested the Canucks buy out Luongo but they weren't willing to do so. Eventually they were able to make a trade, but will still feel the effects long-term. If the assets returned work out then it won't be so bad. Sometimes you just gotta take a deep breath and yank the bandaid so the wound gets healing. If TO determines they have a couple of anchors, they will be able to cut bait if they desire to. Canucks managed to move an expensive NTC with term only one year in, and parlayed it into a younger player with upside and capspace to sign others. Cap management is king, and soon we're going to see the effects of failing to regard it as such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaudette Celly Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 I get your argument and I know you put 100% faith in analytics but they don't discount actual production. I can personally over look his flaws (or anyone's) as long as they are proficient at other aspects. Though I do agree that he deserves criticism for his poor defensive play only because he has a high salary. It comes with the territory. Then how about what's ultimately important -- the team's performance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonMexico Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 It's not simply analytics RM. It's also just the facts around his production. Kessel is spoon fed opportunity - and yet he has only 25 even strength points this year. To put that in perspective, it's a shade better than Bonino who's been on a month stretch where he's struggling to produce - but in Bonino's case, he has among the lowest offensive zone starts on the team, strongest quality of competition, a great deal of takeaways, and far better underlying numbers - and his production is with 2nd line minutes. 40% of Kessel's production comes on the powerplay. The opposition takes 20 more shots per 60 minutes with Kessel on the ice than the Leafs do - and outscore them. . That is a massive deficit, considering they taylor his minutes as best they can for him. Hockey is a two way game - and Kessel overall is a wash imo. Isn't that just playing to your strengths as a coach? Knowing what situation to depoly your players to give your team the best chance to win. Essentially you can't change your player's natural instincts but I think you can at least surround them with players who make up for their deficiences. I guess the problem in TO is that while Bozak helps, the 3 other players on the ice do nothing to improve the defensive play of that line when they are on the ice. Considering that 2 players out there have the title of 'defenceman', they certainly do not seem to help the matter. In the end, I guess the Leafs built around the wrong guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apollo Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Rielly and Gardiner are both overrated. I'd like the following from them Franson or Kadri (although one of his greatest strengths are drawing penalties and if he comes here then doughty or Perry would be allowed to hook, slash, head shot, trip and rough him as much as they want with no penalty being called) Kessel wouldn't be too bad either! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apollo Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Why should other players come to camp in shape if this can get you $8mil per? As soon as Phaneuf and Kessel were re-signed, that was it for their current group, imho. Mega-reward deals that rewarded failure. Kessel is 9th in the league in scoring ... I heard all the reports that he only stayed 8 times all summer too and thought because of that I shouldn't take him in any of my fantasy leagues. I was wrong. Kessel is an elite talent and would be an asset to any team. 8 million isn't bad at all. It's not ideal, but any team could benefit from having him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theminister Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Rielly and Gardiner are both overrated. I'd like the following from them Franson or Kadri (although one of his greatest strengths are drawing penalties and if he comes here then doughty or Perry would be allowed to hook, slash, head shot, trip and rough him as much as they want with no penalty being called) Kessel wouldn't be too bad either! Rielly is far from overrated. He's just really young. He's also an amazing offensive d-man. Taking Franson over Rielly is just crazy talk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Why should other players come to camp in shape if this can get you $8mil per? As soon as Phaneuf and Kessel were re-signed, that was it for their current group, imho. Mega-reward deals that rewarded failure. That looks like a trucker's spare tire running around the midsection there. I'd be bag skating him for weeks if I were his coach and he showed up looking like that. I could care less who he thinks he is. He should be the first guy they hold accountable - and instead they pretend he's above it. Team-building - how-not-to 101. An $8 million professional athlete has no right to show up out of shape - using the offseason to improve your conditioning is part of your job. The audacity is borderline unbelievable - he is 27 years old. That the Leafs tolerate it - beyond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuktravella Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 kassian and jensen for jvr yes please higgins and markstrom and a second for pulock sedin sedin vrbata vey bonino jvr hansen horvat burrows dorsett richardson mattias edler tanev hamhuis pulock stanton bieska corrado miller lack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Isn't that just playing to your strengths as a coach? Knowing what situation to depoly your players to give your team the best chance to win. Essentially you can't change your player's natural instincts but I think you can at least surround them with players who make up for their deficiences. I guess the problem in TO is that while Bozak helps, the 3 other players on the ice do nothing to improve the defensive play of that line when they are on the ice. Considering that 2 players out there have the title of 'defenceman', they certainly do not seem to help the matter. In the end, I guess the Leafs built around the wrong guy. No - it;s not just playing to your strengths. It's not being able to find enough soft ice time or puck possession to feed that sink hole. If the primary one-dimensional player that you spoon feed offensive opportunity is a minus player every single season in that context (-53 as a Leaf), you are in trouble. And you can't simply blame it on his team-mates for not making the spoon silver enough - the message needs to be that there are no passengers, especially of the 64 million dollar variety. And the idea that you can't change a player's 'natural instinct' - as in laziness and entitlement - is nonsense - professional players are compelled to develop and should be self-motivated, certainly by the time they're 25 year old men. It's called coaching and being coachable - the game is so much more than 'natural instincts' - it's a team game and it needs to be learned. Whatever the issues are there, they haven't been handled properly - that much is pretty evident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoneypuckOverlord Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 no way they tanking now. They still have the last wild card spot. Probably want to avoid past seasons meltdown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theminister Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 no way they tanking now. They still have the last wild card spot. Probably want to avoid past seasons meltdown But they can't. They're sinking. They might get a little three game blip out of the firing, that's what it's intended to do, but they'll be passed by Fla and Bos soon enough. I'd even wager CBJ will catch up to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TOMapleLaughs Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 I still think TO can make something happen with their core guys though. It's not as if they're worthless. What they need and have needed for years is a couple legit top-4 defensemen. Not Polak. Not Ribeiro. Not lost-looking kids. Some legit guys. So Phaneuf doesn't have to carry the load alone. Then they might be able to get the puck out of their damn zone. Look at Washington. OV worst +/- in league, fat and lazy. Sign a couple legit top-4 defensemen and look, now OV is 2nd-best +/- on team and 'team player'. You need to complement your franchise players. TO should trade picks/prospects for these defensemen immediately our throw this group's window into the trash. (Can you hear 'Bieskaaaa to TO' whispering in the wind again?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonMexico Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 No - it;s not just playing to your strengths. It's not being able to find enough soft ice time or puck possession to feed that sink hole. If the primary one-dimensional player that you spoon feed offensive opportunity is a minus player every single season in that context (-53 as a Leaf), you are in trouble. And you can't simply blame it on his team-mates for not making the spoon silver enough - the message needs to be that there are no passengers, especially of the 64 million dollar variety. And the idea that you can't change a player's 'natural instinct' - as in laziness and entitlement - is nonsense - professional players are compelled to develop and should be self-motivated, certainly by the time they're 25 year old men. It's called coaching and being coachable - the game is so much more than 'natural instincts' - it's a team game and it needs to be learned. Whatever the issues are there, they haven't been handled properly - that much is pretty evident. So who is the more desirable player? A guy whose defensive game is swiss cheese but is amongst the league leaders in offensive output or a guy who is a league leader in puck possession numbers but can't score any points? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miltt Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 any substance to Dreger's tweet or is this leafs clown sinking to that Erklund's level. I see no point to his tweet other than to create unnecessary and unsubstantial Leafs hype. Such a joke team and terrible fans. Dreger belongs within that organization somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 What they need and have needed for years is a couple legit top-4 defensemen. Not Polak. Not Ribeiro. Not lost-looking kids. Some legit guys. So Phaneuf doesn't have to carry the load alone. Then they might be able to get the puck out of their damn zone. Someone like Gunnarsson muahahaha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazzle Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Grabner's been on their pk before there. 2nd unit. That's to introduce a speedy scoring threat to keep 2nd unit pointmen honest. Nielsen is the all-round player. They have a lot of young forwards in the lineup right now. Canucks better be quick on their feet. Nielsen for sure is another criminally underrated Scandinavian. Grabner really learned a lot with him, I think, though it didn't seem to make sense, at the beginning, for a previously offensive-minded forward on the 'third' line. Seemed like they were misusing him, but good on him for being able to adapt. With that deep a prospect pool (and high end) they were bound to make improvements if they figured out how to get a goalie worth having and stabilized their D. Snow made good moves this year in Leddy and Boychuck but he's also made bad moves in the Moulson/Vanek debacle and his handling of prospects like Neidereitter. Nonis is capable of a good trade now and again as well, he did bring in Luongo after all. But speaking of the Leafs, they'll have open phones on their overpriced, underperforming roster players but they won't be willing to part with anyone of any value to another team - at least without an overpayment. I don't see us going after anyone, apart from to ask about the good prospects/players and find out they want way too much. They are currently in 8th, but have Boston 1 point behind (they can't stay as bad as they've been of late) and Florida 2 points back - with 3 games in hand. What they've been trying hasn't been working and it's showing no signs of getting better soon. They're like the Oilers in that sense - but with less young talent - and need to make something happen to get the team in the right direction. I don't think removing Carlyle is enough. Why wouldn't we just keep the 2nd rounder then if it means getting the next Datsyuk? I was a Nonis supporter in Vancouver. He made some great moves. He signed Anson Carter for 1 mill and he was exceptional with the Twins. But he mishandled Carter too. Everyone took the Sedins for granted. Not everyone could play well with them. He made relatively cheap upgrades on a roster, as opposed to Gillis' more expensive (cap-wise) acquisitions. (Booth/Ballard) Nonis made a great trade with Luongo - finally making the goaltending position much more stable. Bertuzzi needed to be traded and managed to find a good partner. Trading Allen wasn't the best move in hindsight - trading toughness away, but it slightly evened out the lopsided trade that it still was. Grabner was a great pick. If you look at what was drafted afterwards in the first round, few made the NHL. He kept trading 2nd round picks though, much like Burke did. He acquired "cheap" defenseman that were well past their prime - Weinrich and Carney. He should've looked for something more permanent. UFA defensemen aren't that great usually. He kept AV, who doesn't like playing rookies usually. Raymond flourished under him, and so did some other players, but Grabner - despite a great AHL tenure and some decent NHL starter numbers, he wasn't allowed into the lineup, which ultimately meant that he'd be waiver-bound - or trade bait. Dumb mishandling of a good prospect, even if his conditioning wasn't all there. If not, he should've been sent down sooner in order to protect the asset. Mismanagement all around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desiboynux4lifee******* Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Leafs are still a good team. They will make the playoffs; furthermore, they would be stupid to start rebuilding now. What they need to do is get guys like Clarkson and Phaneuf dealt; the only management dumb enough to take Phaneuf will probably be the oilers. lol Also, if the Canucks want any player from the leafs I would go with Franson, or a big timer like JVR, or grab a guy like Bozak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monty Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Leafs are still a good team. They will make the playoffs; furthermore, they would be stupid to start rebuilding now. What they need to do is get guys like Clarkson and Phaneuf dealt; the only management dumb enough to take Phaneuf will probably be the oilers. lol Also, if the Canucks want any player from the leafs I would go with Franson, or a big timer like JVR, or grab a guy like Bozak. Not when they are second last in the league in shots against, giving up an average of 34.4 per game. Not going to make the playoffs that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TOMapleLaughs Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Someone like Gunnarsson muahahaha.Wasn't a huge Gunnarsson fan and thought he played out of his element on a top pair in TO, but he's a bit more versatile than Polak, who may be more a hard-hitting 3rd pairing-type. Truculence? Didn't they perform this trade after hiring their advanced stats gurus? Does not compute. I'm not sure if the type of guys I'm referring to are available though. Sekera in Carolina? Myers? Gorges? Andy Greene? Yandle? Maybe free agency is the way to go. Michalek. Beauchemin. Oduya. Ehrhoff. Martin. Boychuk. Staal. But then they'll need to clear some cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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