oldnews Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 So who is the more desirable player? A guy whose defensive game is swiss cheese but is amongst the league leaders in offensive output or a guy who is a league leader in puck possession numbers but can't score any points? You'll have to help me out with that one. Which league leaders in puck possession can't score any points? Would that be Bergeron, Sharp, Keith, Wilson, Toews, Tatar, Kucherov, Datsyuk, Kopitar...? When people suggest that Kessel is one of the best players in the NHL, they put him in a class with players like Patrice Bergeron, and with all due respect, that is laughable. I'll make the counterpoint here that the league leaders in puck possession generally play for good puck possession hockey teams - but the problem in Kessel's case is that he's among the worst of the worst - he is as bad a puck possession player as anyone on the Leafs - and they are one of if not the worst puck possession team in the NHL. (I may embellish slightly for the sheer pleasure of taking shots back at the Leafs - but only slightly). The reality is that Phil Kessel isn't outscoring the overall deficiencies in his game. His one dimension is simply not good enough to overshadow the balanced game of his competitors. There's no real way to put lipstick on it. Kessel is as big a liabiltiy as anyone in the NHL. Teams that win Stanley Cups play two way hockey. It's really that simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuxfanabroad Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Hmm..who can make a silk purse from a sow's ear?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Wasn't a huge Gunnarsson fan and thought he played out of his element on a top pair in TO, but he's a bit more versatile than Polak, who may be more a hard-hitting 3rd pairing-type. Truculence? Didn't they perform this trade after hiring their advanced stats gurus? Does not compute. I'm not sure if the type of guys I'm referring to are available though. Sekera in Carolina? Myers? Gorges? Andy Greene? Yandle? Maybe free agency is the way to go. Michalek. Beauchemin. Oduya. Ehrhoff. Martin. Boychuk. Staal. But then they'll need to clear some cap. nailed it. Gunnarsson has been injured this year though, so likely wouldn't have helped them much, but I agree - they do need to find the Salo/Tanev to Edler for Phaneuf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theminister Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Quick Poll: Who thinks the Leafs will let Nonis handle the Trade Deadline without firing him beforehand? My vote is already counted. 0 Yea 1 Nae Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuxfanabroad Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 TM, They might keep him around to deal away a couple of Burke-fiascos. Then he can be blamed, if those deals are garbage. So he'll be the garbage man, then he'll get canned before DD. Similar timing to Torts/MG... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AriGold Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Good luck with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Quick Poll: Who thinks the Leafs will let Nonis handle the Trade Deadline without firing him beforehand? My vote is already counted. 0 Yea 1 Nae Hard to say - partly because aside from Franson, I don't necessarily see the Leafs salary structure making this particular deadline that focal - but that may not matter if the thirst for changes over-rides such things. Shanahan, since he has kept him around thus far, would appear imo to be saving Nonis as his second buffer. He held out and finally spent one on Carlyle. although most people saw or thought the writing was on the wall. So I suppose the question then becomes - will the Leafs performance between now and the deadline make it necessary to use that second buffer, or will this one buy Shanahan enough time to get him to the offseason? I have to go with your take here. Nae. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desiboynux4lifee******* Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Not when they are second last in the league in shots against, giving up an average of 34.4 per game. Not going to make the playoffs that way. I have a question. how do you know when someone quotes you without looking through the thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theminister Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Hard to say - partly because aside from Franson, I don't necessarily see the Leafs salary structure making this particular deadline that focal - but that may not matter if the thirst for changes over-rides such things. Shanahan, since he has kept him around thus far, would appear imo to be saving Nonis as his second buffer. He held out and finally spent one on Carlyle. although most people saw or thought the writing was on the wall. So I suppose the question then becomes - will the Leafs performance between now and the deadline make it necessary to use that second buffer, or will this one buy Shanahan enough time to get him to the offseason? I have to go with your take here. Nae. I think I see it somewhat differently. I am guessing that Shanny uses the excuse of just having fired the GM, and putting himself or Dubas in as interim, as the explanation for why they won't get anything done at the deadline. He will claim there wasn't enough time and that the new GM should choose his direction for the club. Neither of those decisions would be wrong objectively but I think it will be a smoke and mirrors move to make it look like MLSE is doing something to right the ship when they are just spinning their wheels for the duration of the season. Whoever they do hire though better have some serious cajones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johngould21 Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 any substance to Dreger's tweet or is this leafs clown sinking to that Erklund's level. I see no point to his tweet other than to create unnecessary and unsubstantial Leafs hype. Such a joke team and terrible fans. Dreger belongs within that organization somewhere. What is Dreger going to do when they can Nonis? How a network can go on for an entire day discussing another TML coach that gets gassed is beyond me. It was only a matter of time before they did it, I was surprised he lasted this long. Anaheim let him go one season after winning the cup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theminister Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 I have a question. how do you know when someone quotes you without looking through the thread? I'd tell you but I think it might just encourage you to post more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TOMapleLaughs Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Potato > Nonis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonMexico Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 You'll have to help me out with that one. Which league leaders in puck possession can't score any points? Would that be Bergeron, Sharp, Keith, Wilson, Toews, Tatar, Kucherov, Datsyuk, Kopitar...? When people suggest that Kessel is one of the best players in the NHL, they put him in a class with players like Patrice Bergeron, and with all due respect, that is laughable. I'll make the counterpoint here that the league leaders in puck possession generally play for good puck possession hockey teams - but the problem in Kessel's case is that he's among the worst of the worst - he is as bad a puck possession player as anyone on the Leafs - and they are one of if not the worst puck possession team in the NHL. The reality is that Phil Kessel isn't outscoring his overall puck possession deficiencies. His one dimension is simply not good enough to overshadow the balanced game of his competitors. There's no real way to put lipstick on it. Kessel is as big a liabiltiy as anyone in the NHL. Teams that win Stanley Cups play two way hockey. It's really that simple. I should have qualified that question to be in hypothetical terms. I will never put Kessel in the same category as Bergeron, Toews or Kopitar. All i've ever said about Kessel is that he provides elite offensive numbers. I am having a hard time grasping the relevence of Corsi though. It seems to me that a large part of your Corsi relies heavily upon who is on the ice with you...which would make it a team stat more than individually driven. If the players you play with all are puck possession hounds and you are not, would it not make sense that your Corsi rating would be inflated? Or vice versa, in the case of the Leafs. Playing with players who are terrible possession players would result in you having a poor Corsi. it doesn't quite make sense to have a stat that people identify as pertaining to an individual when your linemates can easily affect your rating. I'll cite an example, but know that I am not really familiar and may be looking at it out of context. If I look through the top 15 CF% I find Tomas Hertl as the lowest scoring forward in the group (which includes defensemen). Also within this top 15 are Thornton and Pavelski who have been his most consistent linemates all season. So my question is, are Thornton and Pavelski carrying him to a good Corsi rating? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
87Crosby Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Top6tito and Bieksa for Reily, Nylander and Franson. Bieksa= Half of Franson Sestito=The Rest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tearloch7 Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Two players that would interest me from TO are Reilly and Bozak .. that's it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 I should have qualified that question to be in hypothetical terms. I will never put Kessel in the same category as Bergeron, Toews or Kopitar. All i've ever said about Kessel is that he provides elite offensive numbers. I am having a hard time grasping the relevence of Corsi though. It seems to me that a large part of your Corsi relies heavily upon who is on the ice with you...which would make it a team stat more than individually driven. If the players you play with all are puck possession hounds and you are not, would it not make sense that your Corsi rating would be inflated? Or vice versa, in the case of the Leafs. Playing with players who are terrible possession players would result in you having a poor Corsi. it doesn't quite make sense to have a stat that people identify as pertaining to an individual when your linemates can easily affect your rating. I'll cite an example, but know that I am not really familiar and may be looking at it out of context. If I look through the top 15 CF% I find Tomas Hertl as the lowest scoring forward in the group (which includes defensemen). Also within this top 15 are Thornton and Pavelski who have been his most consistent linemates all season. So my question is, are Thornton and Pavelski carrying him to a good Corsi rating? Corsi is certainly effected by who is on the ice with you, and who is on the ice against you - I think it doesn't make much sense in isolation, but offers some pretty concrete 'facts' about situational play that are useful in context. In Hert's case it is certainly worth keeping in mind how strong a two way game his common linemates havel - I'd say he is somewhat aided by them, although he is a talented young guy who certainly has good balance to his game in his own right - he's a big body who is strong on the boards, he skates well, he reads the play and moves the puck well - and he has a pretty solid all around game that allowed him to step into a top 6 role at a very young age. However, he faces slightly weaker competition than Pavelski and Thornton, and he's prone to turning the puck over (as is Thornton) - partly I suppose because they possess it and move the puck so frequently. That is part of Kessel's prolific turnover numbers as well (if we're being honest and looking to give him a break lol). It is difficult to break down the effect that linemates have on one another when their situational play is so similar. Things like Thornton's extremely strong performance in the faceoff circle doesn't hurt Hertl's corsi either. But guys are usually chosen to play with each other because they are complimentary. Where Kessel is concerned, I simply don't accept the common claim that Bozak somehow piggy-backs off him - I find that to be utter nonsense - some people have erroneously imo tried to do with vs without comparisons of Bozak, but Bozak, when not playing with Kessel, was used in a much different way, because of his versatility - and of course his underlying numbers are going to be weaker when he plays more of a shutdown role with higher dzone starts. The Leafs often defy logic that way - they went on and on about Grabovski's drop in production, after they'd shifted him to a shutdown role. When it comes to a question of what linemate is carrying whom, I ask myself - what would a line of three Phil Kessel's look like? For the most part, I'd speculate that it'd be a downright disaster. Three Tylery Bozaks? That line would a hell of a lot more difficult to play against, that's for sure, and they'd still get their share of points. All things considered, I'd take the latter hands down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bookie Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 dammit oldnews now you've given me the mental image of Phil Kessel wearing lipstick. that's not gonna be good for my sleep tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuxfanabroad Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 I tolerated the indignity of arguing with TO-fanboys in an Ontario daily, all those yrs ago. The way they bashed the left coast, & attributed all 2010~2012 Canucks' success to the parts BB/Nonis acquired. Burke was a deity, & you would dare not question his wisdom. If he uttered,"This market has NO patience for a full rebuild!"..then by Gawd... Next, after CBA shell-games, & the ensuing need to cut cap, how they mocked MG's dilemma, of trying to financially maintain a competitive roster. The ink that was dedicated in explaining the insanity(ZERO tradeability) of Lu's deal. The irony of their current contract-mess cannot be overemphasized. It's a heaping helping of schadenfreude, with leftovers for tomorrow's burkey sandwiches... Where would the Leafs be now, had they hired Gillis(or a more patient approach GM, like him), as opposed to the Snake Oil-Blowhard? For al the online-abuse I've seen directed towards MG, BB(& his poodle) deserve twenty-fold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singing chef Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 I find it to be most disrespectful that the TML organization upstaged the glory of our World Junior Team by making this announcement today. Why not let our juniors bask in their gold glory and announce the Carlyle firing tomorrow ? Poor taste, Nonis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaBamba Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 I agree that Kessel/ Phaneuf can't be traded. You would think that a great player that is a proven scorer in this league would be easy to move eh? The contract is what makes it hard to move. Weber, Toews, Kane, would also be hard to move because of their monster contracts. Any team that these players would wave their NTC to approve such a trade would have to move major amounts of salary to fit them in. These preferred destinations would have to move Key pieces of their WINNING team. This is completely unrealistic for a team that is a Stanley Cup contender. The players these winning teams would be willing to give up won't help Toronto and would have to be an equal exchange in salary. Look how long it took to trade Bobby Luo and his cap hit was like half as much. Toronto is in a really tough spot right now, they can't change their core, they can't even buy anyone out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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