Short term pain for long term gain (Discussion)

[Burnsey]

I don't see Benning panicking at or near the deadline and trading for a stop gap player. He's been pretty clear that he is not trading away picks and prospects.

Miller and Vrbata were signed because they filled an obvious need that youth could not fill yet. Markstrom wasn't ready for a lot of NHL minutes and Jensen wasn't ready for a top 6 role.

Ah never mind, I see the plan on this thread. Let's taaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnkkkkkkkkkkkkkk. It's a simple, genius plan that surely won't fail. Ship out Hamhuis, Higgins, Hansen, Bonino, Burrows and fill them with Corrado, Shinkaruk, Jensen, and Gaunce even though they're not ready. Let's get so bad the Sedin's and Bieksa will be disgusted enough to waive their NTC's. We'll be so bad Edmonton will blush. TANK TANK TANKITY TANK TAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNKKKKKKKKKKKKK.

If anything else it'll be interesting.

Way more interesting than slowly but steadily amassing young talent that can be given the time to properly grow.

Yes, i agree lets Tank and put prospects who are clearly not ready and hope for the best. Oilers seem to do that and in a few years (after their decade+ long rebuild period) they'll be like the Blackhawks, Penguins, Kings, etc.

[Patchoball Cannons]

I've no words for this

Can you address OPs points at all or will you just ignore a well founded argument that in all honesty in no way suggests tanking? ?

The team is 11 games above .500 and has as good a chance as any team in the playoffs if they can make it. When the Kings won their first Stanley Cup they barely made the playoffs. All you have to do is make the second season , and anything can happen. Your likely the same people that counted this same team out before the season started. Now that they've had some measure of success, all you try to do is find fault in a positive. Every so called Canucks fan is an " expert" and knows exactly what we need to do to win a Cup. My point is I trust the actual experts.

[dura_mater]

#7. Let's address this "Tanking" notion.........as is, we may still end up with a 11 to 14 pick....it could happen even if we play at current levels with the current players............but what I am saying is, in 2 to 3 years, we will not have Hank or Dank, and Vrbata,

Hamhuis will be 34 and a slightly above average #3/4, with no near the value he has now. we will have no one to take over for our #1 line..........do you see a #1 center...a number #1 lw and #1rw..........maybe one!. I.don't see any #1 defenseman either!

Why will Hamhuis be a slightly above average 3-4 dman? He was "on" team Canada (I realise he didn't play). This is a top 2 defenseman on any team. Do you think Blake, Neidermeyer, Pronger all start playing poorly in the mid and late 30's? They all won cups around that time. Hamhuis might not quite be on the same level but to say he's going to drop from being a top 2 defenseman to a 3-4 defense is ludicrous.

[J.I.A.H.N]

Dura_mater.......Hamhuis has never been a Blake, Neidermeyer or a Pronger....never! And my point is that in 2 or 3 years from now, he will not be as strong as he is now. I do how ever believe he will still be a decent defenseman. Just not as good. And IMO he has already declined because of injury....it happens

Back to Bev......Bev, the Canucks are ranked 21st in 5 on 5 play.....this is the driver for everything....no pressure...no power plays. So if you don't score 5 on 5 and you don't get any power plays ( even worse in the playoffs), how do you expect to win?

[Patchoball Cannons]

Hits.

The Canucks do not have a single player ranked in the top 60 in hits. Derek Dorsett leads the team tied for 65th in the NHL with 94 hits. The league leaders have 180-200. Want to know who is next in the standings on this team? Kevin Bieksa and Luca Sbisa tied at 123rd in the NHL.

I'm sorry this seems to have fallen inbetween the cracks but you simply cannot ice an intimidating team and win with such passive play. Special teams are nice but you have to make yourself some space to play by throwing the bodies. Make guys afraid to descend on you in battles- there is none of that. Teams pile on us like it was a football game because there is absolutely 0 threat there. I say it makes more of a difference than special teams play.

Drawing penalties: You don't when you aren't skating, instead of drawing some interference or hooking slashing by being out of reach the Canucks are happy to be a bit slower and not move feet, just letting stick checks in, and their passing isn't accurate enough to make up for their loss of speed. The puck should be moving faster than the other teams players when we control the posession but it rarely is and that is why there are fewer offensive opportunities than there used to be. You either make space by being fast, by having accurate passing, or by hitting alot, or by having a good amount of two of these things...

Hits are a BS stat in the NHL. Look at the leaders, there all on american teams. American Rinks call everything a hit. If you brush shoulders its a hit. You'll watch a game that looks even to a knowledgeable hockey fan but the stats will say they outhit the Canadian team 3-1. it's been a well known fact for a long time, that hit stats are grossly misrepresented by American teams.

[TOMapleLaughs]

Why will Hamhuis be a slightly above average 3-4 dman? He was "on" team Canada (I realise he didn't play). This is a top 2 defenseman on any team. Do you think Blake, Neidermeyer, Pronger all start playing poorly in the mid and late 30's? They all won cups around that time. Hamhuis might not quite be on the same level but to say he's going to drop from being a top 2 defenseman to a 3-4 defense is ludicrous.

There's no guarantee that he'll even be here regardless.

^Canucks aren't a hitting team.

[J.I.A.H.N]

The premise for this post is we are getting older, our good assets are the older players, and if we don't move some of them, we will have to do a slow rebuild....a slow painful rebuild.

I get that some of you don't want to sell assets until they are no good, but then their value is nothing......IMO, not that it matters, we should move quicker and exploit what we have now....before those assets devalue..........my post was to point out that fact by showing some stats, that none of us can argue with. This is what I believe...it is my opinion.....

In Vrbata's case, although I do not advocate selling players the same year as you sign them, I would in this case, the return to me, is too much to pass up. 5 years from now.....no one will remember, If you do it on a continuous basis, it would become a trend and everyone would remember.

[The Lock]

The premise for this post is we are getting older, our good assets are the older players, and if we don't move some of them, we will have to do a slow rebuild....a slow painful rebuild.

I get that some of you don't want to sell assets until they are no good, but then their value is nothing......IMO, not that it matters, we should move quicker and exploit what we have now....before those assets devalue..........my post was to point out that fact by showing some stats, that none of us can argue with. This is what I believe...it is my opinion.....

In Vrbata's case, although I do not advocate selling players the same year as you sign them, I would in this case, the return to me, is too much to pass up. 5 years from now.....no one will remember, If you do it on a continuous basis, it would become a trend and everyone would remember.

As I mentioned earlier, we ARE getting younger. Bonino and Sbisa are younger than Kesler. Vey is younger than Garrison. We will continue to get younger.

So if you're just trying to say we should be getting younger as you just indicated, we are.

So then why this thread? lol

[J.I.A.H.N]

Hi Lock

No, I am saying our talent is in our older players....and we will have less talent on the team, skill wise in 2 year.......I am paraphrasing, but that is it in a nut shell........do you see any first liners in those players you just quoted? I see a whole bunch in Sedin, Sedin, Vrbata, Kesler, Hamhuis.........not a lot after that....do you see the theme

[The Lock]

Hi Lock

No, I am saying our talent is in our older players....and we will have less talent on the team, skill wise in 2 year.......I am paraphrasing, but that is it in a nut shell........do you see any first liners in those players you just quoted? I see a whole bunch in Sedin, Sedin, Vrbata, Kesler, Hamhuis.........not a lot after that....do you see the theme

Well, I also mentioned earlier if we didn't have the Sedins, we'd also have 14mil in cap space to sign other big names or do a big trade. May I also remind you have Vrbata and Hamhuis were both signed as free agents.

So in 2 years, we'll just have different players filling those roles. We just don't know who those players will be yet. (we could even still have the Sedins)

I wouldn't worry so much if I were you.

[Warhippy]

The team is 11 games above .500 and has as good a chance as any team in the playoffs if they can make it. When the Kings won their first Stanley Cup they barely made the playoffs. All you have to do is make the second season , and anything can happen. Your likely the same people that counted this same team out before the season started. Now that they've had some measure of success, all you try to do is find fault in a positive. Every so called Canucks fan is an " expert" and knows exactly what we need to do to win a Cup. My point is I trust the actual experts.

at NO point in time did the OP actually say tank, he repeated talking points from about 6 different threads and has a valid point with his stats. If you want to address those you can.

[The Colt 45s]

I think our prospect pool is deep, and the future is bright. We just have too many hypochondriacs masquerading as Canucks fans on this board. Utica's record this year bears well for our future. It is just like when the Moose started to become a good AHL team somewhere between 2003-2006. It was an era when Kesler, Burrows, Bieksa and Hansen were on the Moose--coached by AV. We had an aging core in Naslund, Bertuzzi, and Morrison, and the Sedins were still quite young. We had a competitive team despite the transition, and prospects that could come up, which they did. We are in the same spot now, if not a better one.

[PowerAids]

If we had prospects ready for the next step now than it would make sense to make some bigger moves. But right now those players aren't ready.

JB has said time and again that he's trying to keep the team competitive now while keeping an eye to the future. What more could you want?

[Gaudette Celly]

The remedy to this reality is to obtain big, young, quick, offensively gifted players. Signing players like Vrbata and Miller only mask the problem as we are seeing...take Vrbata away from the mix, and we sink further into the hole. Keeping Vrbata, slows down the process, not a good idea in my opinion, this goes for others as well.

Okay, where exactly is the revelation in this? Is this some new brainstormed concept that nobody's thought of before? For one, 29 other teams are trying to do the exact same thing, are they not? Second, how do you intend on doing this? Considering you made a new post with a big backstory there must be some substantive conclusion in it somewhere...

I believe we can stem that tide, but it will be associated with some growing pains and acceptance of not being as competitive for the next couple of years....let's take advantage of our current position and the strong draft we are in......It is the time to trade our aging assets, that have worth today, but will have less in 2 years.

Meaning what -- trade everyone over 30? Trade the Sedins? Trade high-profile free agents that were just signed 4-5 months ago? The last four are going nowhere (practically) so that leaves players like Higgins, Hamhuis, Burrows, and Bieksa. Think about it -- would you give up a high first-round pick for any of them? At best, a contender might give up their first like Pittsburgh did, knowing it'll be very low. Trade all those guys and you will have a gongshow next year with the lack of stability and experience... or is that what it's really all about -- another lengthy post that could have been summarized in four letters: T.A.N.K.?

A winning team has a mixture of youth and veterans. The key is to have the right kind of each, and not everyone has to be a dancer. There must be players with a competitive edge and character, not simply flaky puck-hogs and goal-sucks. Benning is trying to transform the team into the vision that he has, and players like Vey, Dorsett, and Bonino is what he has in mind. This all in the context of a culture of winning, not future wishful hope that magic tokens happen to bring success. That isn't building a hockey team, it's superstition.

[J.I.A.H.N]

Hey JMF......I also think we have a deep pool....just not top end talent.....they are different, you know. Look someone commented on the fact that when Naslund, Bert and such were getting older, we had the Sedin's ready and playing on the team, when Naz and Bert left they just stepped right in, and that is also how I remembered it.

Point is that they had played 5 years in a Swedish Pro league already, and when they came over and played 4 years with the Canucks before reaching over 50 pts., the first year they were stars, they were 24 years old....and these 2 guys were 2 and 3 overall picks

Our current prospects are all 17, 18 and 19 years old...........that's any where from 5 to 7 years away, before they reach their peak.........maybe 3 or 4 years if were lucky. And we do not have any Hanks or Dank on the team yet? Do you see any? Do you see 3? (LW/C/RW)

Look, I am not saying it won't happen....all I am saying is that right now, we do not have a first line center or lw in the prospect pool, we have a chance to trade aged talent for picks, maybe even move up in the draft a little, and expedite the process.

Indulge me for a second please.......(Just a dream....a nightmare for some, lol)

The Plan..........LOL

#1. Sell off old talent............Vrbata = 1st rounder (22nd OA) and maybe 3rd rounder, Hamhuis = 1st rounder(16thOA) and 2nd rounder

Higgins = 2nd (50th OA)

#2. You have........................Vancouver's 1st (12th OA)

Hamhuis Pick (16th OA)

Vrbata's Pick (22nd OA)

Vancouver's 2nd (40thOA)

Hamhuis 2nd (46th OA)..........used to acquire better pick together..........35th OA?

Higgins 2nd (50th OA).............used to acquire better pick together..........35th OA?

Vrbata's 3rd (82 OA)

Don't laugh.......this is what Buffalo's doing for real

#3 Offer up Kassian with one of the above picks to move up to a higher 1st

#4. State at the draft you are going into the UFA market big time or fill in with prospects Jensen, Gaunce and possibly Virtanen

Now dream, you will have 5 or 6 sure fire prospects, some of which will be #1(Elite or starting line up) type prospects

Will all of this happen....no, .........................should some of this happen? Absolutely!

[J.I.A.H.N]

Hey, look! .........I got lost a little in the last half of my last post, please refer back to the original post for direction of my thoughts, but certainly if you use the later half of the last post as an example......I would be happy with any 2 of the 3 trades if possible.

Keep it coming!

[Guest]

Not a frequent board responder, but this one intrigues me.

Short term pain, meaning some sort of poor season to capitalize on a supposedly deep draft. Let's see; we dropped the home sell out streak last year, so ticket sales, et al, are down. Hmm, a little money/income lost. Do you think we can afford to tick off an already proven fickle fan base any more? The owners are businessmen; they won't put up with hemorrhaging money for very long. Additionally, we would be drafting players that are years away from becoming good players, IF EVER. I know McDavid seems like a sure thing, but nothing is guaranteed. I don't know if Edmonton "tanked" at any time, but their collection of high first round picks isn't a great example of "long term gain". Only example I can think of this working was Pittsburgh, getting Malkin and Crosby in back/back years-oh yeah, didn't we get two pretty good players back/back once? Like the twins? No, hitting home runs in the draft is about like a Vegas craps table, not a good way to get rich.

No, I think Benning/Linden are doing the right thing. Were any of our picks, other than Horvat, truly ready for the NHL? No way. At best, Corrado will be truly contributing by the end of this season. Next year, maybe, MAYBE Guance and Jensen. So its two years until our depth becomes viable. We had to sign Vrbata, and Miller, and trade for Vey and get (or accept) Sbisa in the Kesler trade, just to bridge the gap until our youth is truly ready.

Would I like to see success before then? People, I've been a fan of the Canucks since Harold Snepsts was a rookie, and the Canucks had had exactly 1 winning season. I've suffered through them losing 3 Cup series, multiple horrible years/coaches/drafts/players, and many times when they should have done something different. I will follow that misery lived up with what I see as (FINALLY) some hope down the road. While we don't have anyone, really, to replace the twins, we do have the makings of a entire team with the players in system that are 26 years old or less, a fairly good one at that, I thnk. If management can somehow work around the salary cap hell that will ensue once the twins, and Luongo, retire, we'll have a good team with the cap to sign a PROVEN star to take us to the next level...and I believe current managements long term views of this team will get us there.

[48MPHSlapShot]

Management has stated that they want to make the playoffs. That should render most of this discussion moot.

[PowerAids]

The Plan..........LOL

#1. Sell off old talent............Vrbata = 1st rounder (22nd OA) and maybe 3rd rounder, Hamhuis = 1st rounder(16thOA) and 2nd rounder

Higgins = 2nd (50th OA)

#2. You have........................Vancouver's 1st (12th OA)

Hamhuis Pick (16th OA)

Vrbata's Pick (22nd OA)

Vancouver's 2nd (40thOA)

Hamhuis 2nd (46th OA)..........used to acquire better pick together..........35th OA?

Higgins 2nd (50th OA).............used to acquire better pick together..........35th OA?

Vrbata's 3rd (82 OA)

Don't laugh.......this is what Buffalo's doing for real

#3 Offer up Kassian with one of the above picks to move up to a higher 1st

#4. State at the draft you are going into the UFA market big time or fill in with prospects Jensen, Gaunce and possibly Virtanen

Now dream, you will have 5 or 6 sure fire prospects, some of which will be #1(Elite or starting line up) type prospects

Will all of this happen....no, .........................should some of this happen? Absolutely!

The problem with your plan there is if you make even half of those moves JB will have zero chance with the UFA market. You can't make moves like that trading all of our quality vets for picks and expect any high profile UFA to want to come here after that.

You need to be more patient man, a lot can change in the next year or two. A couple moves, and the emergence of some younger players and this teams outlook could look a whole lot different.

This whole plan seems very NHL15 GM mode to me.

[hlinkas wrister]

Hey, look! .........I got lost a little in the last half of my last post, please refer back to the original post for direction of my thoughts, but certainly if you use the later half of the last post as an example......I would be happy with any 2 of the 3 trades if possible.

Keep it coming!

Jan, you actually brought up a couple of interesting points in your OP, but your solution is flawed. If we traded the Sedins, Vrbata, Higgins, Hamhuis and whatever else for players from a draft class who are most likely 4-5 years away from being legitimate NHL'ers you are dooming the team to mediocrity for the better part of a decade at least. This is fair to who ? The seasons ticket holders ? The sponsers ? The owners ? The fans of the oilers maybe who would finally get to laugh at us for a change maybe. I'll take JB's plan thank you very much. The "potential" ceiling for success may not be as high as the one in your pie in the sky scenario, but in reality it has equal possibility of success while also keeping us competitive and entertaining.