Short term pain for long term gain (Discussion)

[Gurn]

If you get cheaper prospects and still charge premium prices the stands will empty out over a couple of years. If you get cheaper players and lower the ticket prices the fans will still show up, imo.

It is possible to ice a crappy team at really low ticket prices and have full stands as long as the timeline is short and people buy into the plan of watching the team grow year by year.

bottom line- don't over charge for whatever level of product you are selling and you should be all right.

[Jagorim Jarg]

Well that settles it then. I guess the majority of 'hockey fans' out there enjoy this brand of player development which sees old guys playing with more old guys until all of our prospects are too old to make a difference. But hey all those 'hockey fans' out there get a chance to have some 'winning hockey' rub off on their egos to make them feel better about watching this team toil forever.

I'd trade 5 years of mediocrity and overopaying free agents and freeloaders for 2-3 years of watching kids earn their careers. It might come as a shock to some that winning doesn't make people interested- excitement and invested players do. So enjoy watching skin of the tooth barely made it past the finish line style tired man's hockey. 20 minutes of effort on a regular basis. I'm going back to watching the exciting kids in the W, forget this. Chartier has 36 goals in 36 games, now that is a standout producer and, surprise surprise, not a Canucks prospect. I bet the Sharks will have him in the lineup beating our tired old goalie before we get a single pair of fresh legs in. Snore, see you all in two years.

I couldn't possibly care less about wins- I want to watch exciting hockey. I watched the Stars vs the Hawks last night play a spirited game and witnessed the guys they have groomed over the past 3-4 years be NHL calibre players, that's how you do it right. If they lose some games and miss the playoffs, but are more interesting to watch, then I take that trade, but alas I forget this is a business owned by another bunch of gutless giants who know nothing beyond their projected quarterly profits.

These are the same guys that perpetuate the same old nonsense in the market, stifling creativity and rewarding copycat lack of risk, no originality, and broadcasting the same garbage music through every speaker in an attempt to homogenize our MCLives. No thanks. I have had quite enough of that.

The old adage rings so true : NO PAIN, NO FREAKING GAIN

[Barry_Wilkins]

Just some quick facts to explain our reasons for not being a playoff competitive team this year, and one which explains why we have to rebuild.

In todays NHL, teams rely on Special teams to put themselves into a better competitive position when playing against their opposition. And in this statement lies our problems. Let's look!

Although we are ranked 10th in Power play percentage, this is somewhat misleading, and gives a false impression when looking at the Canucks. And here is why......

When we look at our Power Play, it runs and succeeds by way of the Sedins, all will admit they are slow, but they are magic when given room. The Sedins thrive on Power Plays and weak teams, as witnessed by our last 2 wins against Carolina and Phili.

There are 2 stats that show why we are not a team that will compete in the playoffs and one which might actually not even make the playoffs.....Are we as bad as last year? No, but we have problems and here they are....

#1. Our 5 on 5 play......this stat shows our pressure on other teams, and actually is as important to the power play stats as is the power play its self........we are ranked 21st in 5 on 5 play, and that has probably moved up a point or 2 since the last 2 games

#2. Now people will say that yes, but we are 10th in the league in Power Play %, and again, that is true, but is misleading, as the more telling stat is how many chances we actually get the Power Play compared to everyone else. In that stat, we are ranked 25th in Power Play Opportunities, which is a far more important stat.

This last stat has a direct correlation to our 5 on 5 play. If your team does not consistently control 5 on 5 play, you will not generate Power plays, therefore even if your power play is good, it just won't get on the ice enough to win.

The only thing that keeps us going is our Penalty Killing, which is great at 3rd overall in the league and keeps our goal differential between the Oppositions Power Play and our Power Play close, but as we play stiffer competition, those numbers do not mean as much, as 5 on 5 play starts to more and more dictate the final score of the games

The remedy to this reality is to obtain big, young, quick, offensively gifted players. Signing players like Vrbata and Miller only mask the problem as we are seeing...take Vrbata away from the mix, and we sink further into the hole. Keeping Vrbata, slows down the process, not a good idea in my opinion, this goes for others as well.

We need to be honest here, as our prospects, although solid, do not have top/elite offensive skills, other than Virtanen (and he needs to prove himself at a higher level) But over all, we are weak in that department, and need to address it quickly, or our rebuild will really start in 2 years....and by that I mean we will be much weaker and will then be picking regularly in the bottom 10.

I believe we can stem that tide, but it will be associated with some growing pains and acceptance of not being as competitive for the next couple of years....let's take advantage of our current position and the strong draft we are in......It is the time to trade our aging assets, that have worth today, but will have less in 2 years. Short term pain for long term gain!

I disagree with this in many ways. Let me count a few.

You can't bemoan the sub-par 5 on 5 stats while saying that our awesome #3 penalty kill is "overachieving". If it's overachieving, that means, by definition, that our 5 on 5 is underachieving. All of these stats have to be valued independently of others.

We are not overachieving in the standings. Our goal differential, a far more meaningful composite stat than your fiddling with special teams vis-a-vis 5 on 5, is in a virtual tie with Anaheim and Calgary in our division. Remember, we were supposed to be buried by SJ, LA, and Anaheim again this season, but the Canucks are holding their own. Do I think they'll be a force in the playoffs? No, but at least it'll be more interesting/exciting for a while down the stretch and into April than another fade and miss.

I agree with what seems to be Benning's (and Linden's) long range plan. Compete every year, aim for the playoffs, and build wisely through the draft while not underselling current assets.

[J.I.A.H.N]

Barry_Wilkins...you donut!...........lol...........I never said our penalty killing is " Over Achieving ", we have a great penalty kill.......it is funny how people read into things what they want to.....lol

Anyway.......if you clobber the weak team by 3 or 4 and just loose to everyone else by one or 2 you could be a very big plus, but a very sub par team in reality.......I was thinking today, about Benning saying we will know more by the end of Feb.........."IF" we are still in the mix, still within 4 to 6 points out....I don't expect Benning to do much.

Question will be, does he trade any of his UFA's anyways, as he will have internal pressure from prospects to start playing on the big team, and will have to decide whether he just lets them walk or resigns them.......it will be a log jam if he does next year......so, I look forward to seeing what this next 45 days brings......it could be very interesting

But Buddy, don't put words in my mouth.........I still think this whole thing is short sighted and no one has yet to explain to me where we will get all these prospect first line players, before the Sedins, Vrbata and Hamhuis start retiring....and where we are getting that #1 type Dman......all in 2 to 3 years........explain that one and maybe I would consider your points more!

[Guest]

Here's the problem with everyone quoting this stat, or that stat: Statistics don't lie, but liars can sure use statistics!

You can manipulate the numbers to show just about anything you want, except for one - how many wins and losses. I don't really care if we win every game 2-1 or 6-5, just as long as we win!

I'm already on record supporting the "longer viewpoint". I just don't see the payoff in moving a lot of our current roster, all at once. Here's the deal: let's say you are a free agent, looking at three different clubs. One club is famous for allowing players to stay around, possibly a little too long; one club is infamous for "what have you done for me lately" and gets rid of players as soon as they show any decline, and the third seems to reward internal loyalty but still will do some player movement to improve the team. With what team do you sign?

Not naming anyone, but the immediate "pain for gain" crowd looks like they would support keeping the club on the edge with the latest players. Being a devil's advocate here, as a player I would likely be leery of signing with a team moving parts around quickly, unless it was because the contract was REALLY good; get my money and run. Might get a cup, might not. I can name a player that used to be here that "took the money" and signed elsewhere, and in retrospect just might regret it: Christian Erhoff. Ya think he might wonder once in a while about woulda/coulda taking a little less money, but staying right here?

Guess I'm trying to say, don't try to get rid of everybody all at once. A more mature player, one that has a family and is looking for a little stability, would not touch an unstable club. However, let's say, just for argument's sake, that Tyler Seguin comes up as a free agent in about 3-4 years, or maybe Karlsson in Ottawa. Think we might want to get him here? Do you think he signs here if we have a rep for high turnover? Well, in that timeline we just may have the cap $$ to sign someone of this caliber, if we don't go nuts now.

[Ben Kenobi]

Man, all the crying over Ehrhoff. Ehrhoff's that chick you had and didn't appreciate who then left and then did ok somewhere else. You were like, ok, I'll upgrade.

Now you're on your own again.

You left that chick for a reason. If she wasn't good enough before, why would things change now?

Two, this team is at a crossroads. I've been on the tank it out for McDavid ride for awhile since the Canucks started dumping talent. I disagree that it means a long rebuild, it means playing time for the young stars.

[J.I.A.H.N]

4-0 against PHILI, 3-0 against Carolina, 2-1 against Florida......pretty much as planned.......all below us in the stands.........anyone see the LA vs Calgary game tonight? When was the last time you seen Van play like that? Not too often.

Tampa tomorrow.....getting closer to February.....it is going to be interesting............

[Barry_Wilkins]

4-0 against PHILI, 3-0 against Carolina, 2-1 against Florida......pretty much as planned.......all below us in the stands.........anyone see the LA vs Calgary game tonight? When was the last time you seen Van play like that? Not too often.

Tampa tomorrow.....getting closer to February.....it is going to be interesting............

That was like watching paint dry. Two teams trying for the 0-0 tie to guarantee at least a loser point. By the way, LA is behind us in the standings. I know, I know, they're just playing possum. Think Sutter would stand for that? They're not a shoo in this year. And San Jose just lost to the mighty Devils tonight.

Canucks won those three "easy" games on the road, one of them back-to-back. Give them some credit. The division is nowhere near as good as it was last year, and the Canucks are taking advantage of it.

[William_Clarkson]

We are stuck either way. We aren't winning the cup and we aren't getting a top 3 draft pick. Only thing positive is we are stalling to give time to develop our players.

Lots of really good players are found in the 10-15 range, plenty of first liners too if you develop them properly.

[William_Clarkson]

One thing that crossed my mind was that the Canucks draft well in the Sedins final contract, but then there's one really bad year where they get a top 5 pick and they trade some players and move up to get a really good player who just takes over the team right away and the new young team is set, having learned from guys like the Sedins how to be professionals and all that.

[Baggins]

While I agree that having a winning or at least a competitive culture is better for developing prospects, I don't agree with the greater than thou attitudes of some CDCers who stand on the pulpit and call the fans of Vancouver fickle. In fact, the majority of us are quite far from being fickle. In fact we are diehards without ever winning a cup. We are cup starved if anything. Not fickle. The declining wait list for season tickets is due to the Aquilinis greed and the over inflated ticket prices which charge virtually scalper fees for regular pricing. The ticket prices are so high that it squeezed the scalpers out of the market. As a fan who had season tickets during the Bure era, we were averaging 17000 for attendance his final year so I call BS on you for making things up. Attendance was very strong during the Bure era until then end minus the lockout year.

Canucks fans don't stop cheering for the Canucks but they do stop opening their wallets. I've listed Canucks attendance several times in the past and as the team moves down the standings the fans stop going to games. That includes the Bure era. When we hit rock bottom in the west and drafted the Sedins average attendance the next season was down to 14,641 the fifth consecutive year of dropping attendance. That summer talk started of moving the team. For point of reference last year Phoenix was at the bottom of the league with 13,776 per game.

Aquilini's greed is based on supply and demand. People were willing to pay the price as long as the team was winning and there was a lengthy waiting list for those expensive tickets. Hence the sellout streak continuing with the price hikes. Once the winning stopped people start disappearing, including the lengthy wait list.

Btw, scalpers aren't squeezed out by ticket prices, they're squeezed out by tickets being available at face value because games aren't sold out. Scalpers make money by being the only available option for tickets.

[TOMapleLaughs]

It might not be as much wins-losses as it is star power. That dip in attendance was right after we traded away Bure, who was the main draw. They came back when the WCE was formed and Naslund started scoring 40 goals a season. Attendance has been pretty high ever since. We've been spoiled over these years, certainly, with some great regular season performances.

But I think Canucks fans have matured since then. We know now that flashy regular season play isn't going to get us a cup. I think most of us want playoff stars again, not regular season stars. I think this is part of the reason why we regard the 1994 team higher than the 2011 team.

I hope Linden and Benning have a plan to get us back to that, but over the top instead of just short.

[Jagorim Jarg]

This is what I said. People pay to be shown exciting and invested players. Not boring maybe we'll win by a goal hockey. This includes playing hard against the best teams, not just celebrating after beating dead horse teams. "I don't care what the score is as long as we win" Said no true fan of hockey.

[spook007]

This is what I said. People pay to be shown exciting and invested players. Not boring maybe we'll win by a goal hockey. This includes playing hard against the best teams, not just celebrating after beating dead horse teams. "I don't care what the score is as long as we win" Said no true fan of hockey.

There is a difference between between being a fan of a team, and a fan of hockey...

We all would love to see exciting players and fantastic hockey, but it comes in waves... If you support a team, you do want them to win every game...

I don't care about the scores or play if we win a cup...I don't even care if they have to steal the cup...

But of course playing great hockey at the same time would be a great bonus.

[Ronalds.Kenins41]

It might not be as much wins-losses as it is star power. That dip in attendance was right after we traded away Bure, who was the main draw. They came back when the WCE was formed and Naslund started scoring 40 goals a season. Attendance has been pretty high ever since. We've been spoiled over these years, certainly, with some great regular season performances.

But I think Canucks fans have matured since then. We know now that flashy regular season play isn't going to get us a cup. I think most of us want playoff stars again, not regular season stars. I think this is part of the reason why we regard the 1994 team higher than the 2011 team.

I hope Linden and Benning have a plan to get us back to that, but over the top instead of just short.

So I see you have changed your views as well. We need to give our medicine to apollo he is still sick with what we had.

[Guest]

A little point of information here: I will take a 2-1, tight checking, end to end game, without penalties and everyone playing a great game any and every day of the week over a sloppy 6-5 game, full of penalties both ways, goalies forgetting how to stay in proper position and a lot of stickwork instead of bodychecks. Maybe that will clarify the not caring about the final score so much as the result.

Another point: no love lost for Erhoff, I consider him to be a mercenary and though not a bad player, I really don't care to see him on the Canucks again. That was just a hypothetical situation.

Yes, people pay to see exciting players. Bure and the WCE put people into the seats, but not so coincidentally we were winning with them also. People also pay to see winning hockey. How long has Nashville been successful with their grinding style (at least until this year); how many cups did the Devils win playing the "trap"? When Elias went over 1000 points here recently, the guys on Sirius XM were amazed that someone actually scored that much, playing with the Devils. They were fairly good back in the day, correct?

Look, if we win the cup, does it matter whether our leading scorer barely breaks 70 points or ends up well over 100? Nah, either way, the Cup would be here. You have your preference, I have mine. Both have been successful in the past (Oilers outscored everyone, Devils trapped everyone). If Benning/Linden succeed with rapid turnover, more power to them.

[Jagorim Jarg]

Playoffs..???

[I.Am.Ironman]

^First round bounce

[Baggins]

It might not be as much wins-losses as it is star power. That dip in attendance was right after we traded away Bure, who was the main draw. They came back when the WCE was formed and Naslund started scoring 40 goals a season. Attendance has been pretty high ever since. We've been spoiled over these years, certainly, with some great regular season performances.

But I think Canucks fans have matured since then. We know now that flashy regular season play isn't going to get us a cup. I think most of us want playoff stars again, not regular season stars. I think this is part of the reason why we regard the 1994 team higher than the 2011 team.

I hope Linden and Benning have a plan to get us back to that, but over the top instead of just short.

And you'd be wrong. There was a significant increase in attendance the year GM Place opened. The new arena being the draw more so than Bure. Attendance dropped every year afterwards until Naslund/Bertuzzi despite Bure being here. Just as attendance rose Bure's rookie season then dropped every year after until GM Place opened.

What exactly leads you to believe Canucks fans have matured since then? We miss the playoffs once and not only does the sell out streak end but that lengthy wait list completely disappeared. The track record of fair weather fans here goes back many decades.

[Jagorim Jarg]

I said, no pain no gain. Team brought in a McMillan instead of using what was there. The one bright spot I can hold on to after the Flames series was Bo Horvat. The Sedins would probably have had better success if the guy who was brought here to play on their line, was used on their line from the start.

Where is our Mike Ferland? Musical chairs starts now, open up two spots and see who wants to play in the NHL. Willie's resistance to changing anything doesn't give me confidence when the team needs to pull the trigger now in quick succession and taking some risk by tgiving young guys more chances to elevate, if the others aren't going to get it done.

Higgins and Bonino were like ships passing in the night for weeks. Why endorse that product? Not working. Sbisa, needs to learn to pass the puck the things he does with it are so stupid sometimes. I want to see Anton Cederholm next year.

I said there need to be two more spots opened this summer to make room for guys that will be depended on to phase out the Sedins. The youth has been wasting in the AHL for too long. Calgary proved a guy who couldn't complete a pull-up could outmuscle ( I literally watched him outmuscle our players) Matthias and Hamhuis to pucks and get to the front of the net. A guy with 26 NHL games can intimidate our toughest* players.

I told you so! I expect to see more spots opened up. I don't see why we shouldn't start doing what every other NHL franchise is doing which is build through drafted youngsters, by giving them the exprience they need to succeed in the NHL, by actually playing in the NHL.

Team is not assertive enough. Not enough collective mental strength if guys are panicked too easily. Not enough recognizing the problem and adapting. No killer instinct, too many nice guys and too much big talk. Not enough finish, and mostly terrible passes. If you are going to be slow then you need to be faster at moving the puck around, and if you can't pass pucks then you get to suck on the powerplay and the transition is full of turnovers, and you get stuck in your own zone. Sound familiar?

We don't need to learn this the hard way another time, rebuild it now.