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Rethinking our retooling (Discussion) Long Read


J.I.A.H.N

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I really loved the game last night, fast, up and down hockey, the Canucks actually attacked the net the whole night!

But havin said that, I have a few questions

#1. Where were the Sedin's in this whole debacle? They were not really part of this win, again a big team, to me they are looking slower and slower. But Where were they?

#2. I think Matthais played a great game with Dorsett and Kassian, and if we could see that kind of production out of these 3 game in game out, on a consistent basis, I would probably be changing my tune. Which brings me to my 2nd question.....Did you see an up and coming first line center anywhere on the roster last night?

Unfortunately, despite this game keeping 100 % of my attention for the whole game, it does not change my view on where we are at.

We need to fill 2 positions immediately and for long term, those being a young centerman with #1 top end hands, speed, vision and creativity, and a young, big, fast, good 1st pass, fast skating, defenseman.

Unfortunately, we have neither on our team, or in our prospect pool.

I think it is quite apparent, that it is easy to get that 2nd and 2nd/3rd line tweener....just look what we have acquired in the past few years..............

By way of trade and UFA......Bonino, Vey, Matthais, Richardson none of which can replace Henrick when he retires.

By way of the draft.........Horvat, McCann, Cassels, again none of which are thought of as sure blue chip first line centers.........

This can again be said of our defense, and the young top 4 playing on the team or on the farm, no real #1 prospects.

Anything we get by drafting will be 3 to 4 years away, yet no other team will be giving these type of asset's away for free.

It is always a pay me now or pay me later scenario, and as long as we do not have these 2 assets on our team or in our stable, we will be middle of the pack team. Look teams don't give away major assets unless the other team is willing to give up major assets.......that is the way.....and in most cases, trying to pick a high end player off another team costs overpayment.....again this is reality!

We get stuck on the year to year dealings of the club and have a hard time with looking down the road 3 or 4 years............for the most part CDC doesn't want to hear about moving major assets, as we are in the playoff hunt, be we should be moving now, while our assets have value.

We currently have some aging assets that have value, as well as some budding AHLer's, the following are assets we could move, and we won't like it but....By Ranking or my warped view

NHLers #1 Edler (28), #2. Hamhuis (31), #3. Vrbata (33), #4.Miller (33)

2nd Rung NHL Assets: Bonino, Kassian, Matthais, Richardson, Dorsett, Higgins, Hansen

Prospects: Demko, McCann, Gaunce, Jensen, Shinaruk, Cassels

Picks...2015-1st and 2nd....I would not suggest we move 2016 picks as we don't know our draft position

Now other than Edler, all these players listed are expendable, and that is a lot of asset, that could be bundled to get that high end prospect. There are a lot of players on the lists above, but I would be willing to package a lot to obtain those 2 elusive prospects.

Trouble is, you guys are afraid to pull the trigger.......remember it will take an overpayment or Luck and I hate depending on luck!

Oh and sorry, but look at Toronto, they are now saying full rebuild....and are saying get use to loosing for another 3 to 5 years................we are not there, thank God!.........but take a look ahead, when the Sedins , Vrbata, Hamhuis, and Miller are gone.......I don't mind staying competitive while retooling, but that shouldn't exclude us from making major moves........if Winnipeg can do it, we can.

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The Sedins were not putting up points last night, but they were playing their asses off.

They were playing with a renewed sense of purpose and were generating chances. Daniel looked especially loose and agile last night.

Trouble is that if you were tasked with "pulling the trigger" you'd assuredly shoot yourself in the foot.

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cdc, unlike management, propose trades that sound good but the opposing teams want different players than cdc wants to move...

benning says they have a plan on what they want here for the future...he says they will not move the players they want to go forward with and won't move players that will keep us competitive until our youth are ready to to step in....i trust their decisions...cdc, not so much.

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Wow can't believe you didn't like the Sedins' play last night. Their passing was spot on, and they had some good chances.The whole team may have been passing and hitting perfectly, but nothing the Sedins did really detracted from the team.

This year is going by pretty decently and the Canucks have a shot at the playoffs. Why should we blow the team up now? Having Horvat, Vey, Clendenning, Kenins, Lack, Kassian, and even Sbisa play with veterans in a winning environment is really helping them out.

When the year's over and we've had our last shot in the playoffs Benning's going to move an older player or two and a goalie off the team for some picks. It's slow but it gives the team a chance to win every night. I love this approach.

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You know Joe, I think you are right, and I intentionally kept from making a trade for that reason, but surely you do not see a #1 center or #1 puck moving Dman in our midst?

I did not mention Horvat or Virtanen as I think these are our players of the future, but in saying that.......If we could get that young PMD or Center for moving pieces around, I would surely look at the offer.

Evander Kane ....no, ..........Ryan Johansen.......I would look at it

I am not saying trade them all, I am saying is that we have to be open to trading some of them, and that is not what I am hearing from CDC....which is who we are talking to........

You quite regularly say " In Benning we Trust" and I am a strong advocate of that........truly! I come on hear to read some interesting reads and throw out a few idea's..................but in the end, it is way too early to start saying Benning doesn't know what he is doing.

I sure if Benning traded Kassian and Matthais today for Krug and the Russian kid, there would be an up roar from a faction of CDC, later yet, if the trade didn't work out, even a larger faction would be voicing their displeasure.......that is how it goes

It is an un-exact science and I think we have hedged our bet by hiring Benning

For me, it is only about getting a replacement #1 center and a #1 Dman.............you know, I might have to wait a little, lol

I come here to be amused.......I am amused!

Cheers

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You've outlined what worries me most about the Canucks. Too big of a gap in age from the "Old core" to the new prospects coming up to replace them.

  1. Benning has said that when he adds players to the system, he is targeting players in the 22-26 year old range. This is the hole in the donut that resulted from acquiring rentals etc during the cup run. We have seen Benning add: Bonino (26), McMillan (24), Sbisa (24), Vey (23), Kenins (23), Clendening (22), Pedan (21)
  2. Missing top 6 forward replacements and top 4 defense pairing replacements. This is a work in progress and is tough to do except via the draft because it is expensive in terms of giving up players for trades and cap space for UFA's. I think that Benning hopes to accelerate this process by upgrading prospects as he did with Forsling for Clendening. He has high hopes for McCann, Virtanen. I think that we're just going to have to accept that the Canucks will be running with 3 third lines for the next couple of years.
  3. I wouldn't get too alarmed at the Sedins play. They face every other teams top defensive players and still manage to produce at the 70 point per year range which places them in the top 20 point getters in the league. Speed was never their game and they even slow the game down for themselves.
  4. I think that we are slowly seeing Benning craft a team that is based on speed, some size and skill. Guys like Dorsett, Hansen, Burrows, Matthias, Kassian, Virtanen, Kenins are prototypical of his plan.
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Sting......I am not sure to be honest. I have proposed a lot of different scenario's and been shot down pretty good, so I thought I would try something a little different and just see if CDC would be accepting of my principles, but I think it gets lost.

You, Joe might be right to hold course....I have to admit every time I am ready to put the last shovel of dirt on them, they surprise me, so I am not sure that to think anymore.

CloutierFan........this is our house and our last change and our top line, if we can't dominate here, we are doomed....the Sedins didn't play bad last night, but I can assure you, that if Kassian, Matthais, and Dorsett hadn't come to play, or if WD didn't let them out on the ice, the Sedin's would have had even less impact in the game last night.......and please don't get me wrong.....I have loved the Sedin's from the get go.....they are just getting slower and running around in the corners is starting to bore me.

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I come here to be amused troll......I am amused a troll!

Cheers

Fixed that for you.

"Loved the game last night...where were the Sedins in this whole debacle?" Now that's amusing...describing a game he loved watching as a debacle. Dude is confused, to say the least.

It'll serve you well to pay attention to what JB is doing -- he's building a team that is going to have three solid 2nd lines and one solid third line up front and three puck-moving d-men and four bruisers on the back end. Getting an elite first line centerman to be the heir apparent to Henrik is not going to be a high priority for Benning as he assembles three centermen that will produce anywhere from 40 to 65 points a season. He's building a team with balance where three lines can score and shut down the opposing team, while the fourth line will drive the opposing team crazy and dominate any other team's fourth line.

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This draft features several players that are NHL ready to just one year away, including defensemen, and including defensemen in our draft range. But we have to pick the correct one, and that's classically been the flaw with the Canucks. Either picking up toughguy WHLers with limited offensive potential, or long-shot Q guys who have dramatic flaws to their overall game, or even more horribly, a KHLer over Duncan Keith. The best pickups lately have been the bigger Swedes such as Ohlund and Edler, and they haven't picked up anyone significant since Bourdon, RIP, who had his own flaws.

Considering the Canucks prospect pool is decent up the middle, in goal and on wing, it's pretty certain that Benning will select a defenseman or two this draft.

Here's a mid-term preview of the 2015 defensemen:

http://forum.canucks.com/blog/751/entry-1867-2015-draft-mid-term-preview-defensemen/

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First off, the retool is less than a year old -- what exactly do you want to "re-think"? Do you consider it a failure? That it's going the wrong way?

Did you expect the team to be completely transformed in the first season? You should look at evaluating the changes made and the direction that's being shown before determining that it needs to be re-thought.

We need to fill 2 positions immediately and for long term, those being a young centerman with #1 top end hands, speed, vision and creativity, and a young, big, fast, good 1st pass, fast skating, defenseman.

If you look around the league, nearly all teams would say they have the same need.

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Janisahockeynut

re #1 those are the players in that age range that Benning has added, I've said nothing about how good I think they are, just that he is looking for guys in that age range that fit his profile and bringing them in

real quality players, we'll have to wait for to develop unless JB gets lucky

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You know Joe, I think you are right, and I intentionally kept from making a trade for that reason, but surely you do not see a #1 center or #1 puck moving Dman in our midst?

I did not mention Horvat or Virtanen as I think these are our players of the future, but in saying that.......If we could get that young PMD or Center for moving pieces around, I would surely look at the offer.

Evander Kane ....no, ..........Ryan Johansen.......I would look at it

I am not saying trade them all, I am saying is that we have to be open to trading some of them, and that is not what I am hearing from CDC....which is who we are talking to........

You quite regularly say " In Benning we Trust" and I am a strong advocate of that........truly! I come on hear to read some interesting reads and throw out a few idea's..................but in the end, it is way too early to start saying Benning doesn't know what he is doing.

I sure if Benning traded Kassian and Matthais today for Krug and the Russian kid, there would be an up roar from a faction of CDC, later yet, if the trade didn't work out, even a larger faction would be voicing their displeasure.......that is how it goes

It is an un-exact science and I think we have hedged our bet by hiring Benning

For me, it is only about getting a replacement #1 center and a #1 Dman.............you know, I might have to wait a little, lol

I come here to be amused.......I am amused!

Cheers

I amuse you? What am I a clown to you?
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How many of these threads are you going to start? "Trouble is, you guys are afraid to pull the trigger", you say that as if it's our decision. If you really have that much of a problem with it, send this email to the GM, no need to clog up space here.

As for your Sedin question, it was because of Chara. This happens every time the Bruins play the Canucks. Chara has really long reach and isn't caught out of position too much. The only reason he hasn't been able to shutdown Chicago and Montreal in the playoffs the last couple years was because he's slow, but against the Sedins it doesn't matter.

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WilliamClarkson. I sense hostility, calm down!

Should I come on here and just say, I like everything, that Benning is our savior!

Fact is there are some guys on here that give out great statistical value, others weigh the pros and Cons out well

Others....and when I say Others, come on here with rose colored glasses, and think every thing is just rosey!

Other do not contribute anything, just on here and pick everyone else opinions apart with rudeness and anonymity, never really saying much, just bullying.....

I look at this site as pretend....where everyone here is a GM, and where idea's are shared.......

I share my ideas, and sometimes I get through, other times I have some one make a point that I have never considered before (I Iike that the best).......I respect people like Tyhee and Ban TSN, etc that make strong points, on either side of the discussion......I do not like people that come on here and bully........I don't hide that I am on the "we should sell and really Rebuild" side, and I respect those that give their arguments on the other side......I especially like when people take about younger players, that I am not aware of....I don't play NHL 2015 .

Just as a matter to clear my view up.......I think we are well on our way, as far as prospects go, and do not think the entire team has to be gutted, I just look at these players as assets, that can be moved around. Such as; where in the draft would our pick 15thOA (just saying) and Jensen or Shinaruk get us, or what would Hamhuis and Bonino get us? That is what all posters do, and we are looking for feed back.........but there is always someone there that wants to make it personal........as if they were the only one with the right idea.

There is probably a thousand different trades that could be made, that would help us now and in the future, and if I am not mistaken, we are aloud to talk about them.

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