Curious About Canadian Fan's Tolerance For Losing

[McBackup]

I don't know if you frequent Sabres message boards as well, but do posters constantly belittle their own fanbase but not include themselves?

[SabreFan1]

I don't know if you frequent Sabres message boards as well, but do posters constantly belittle their own fanbase but not include themselves?

No, we just pick on and make the occasional joke about our team.

[SNACanuck]

Having seen both sides Canadian fans will always have a built in fanbase even with losing seasons. I've said it before, in Canada hockey is the national pastime and a birthright. Fans in the US gravitate towards fandom for multiple teams across genres. If they have a sucky season in hockey they just wait until football or basketball season starts up and forget all about the crappy season their favorite hockey team had.

There is a core of fans, but you won't drive out of Anaheim and LA and find tons of fans of their teams. Sure there are fans here and there, but unlike in Canada the news and fan coverage isn't huge. Even with a Stanley cup win. I remember the freak'n sport anchors couldn't even get the name of the players right during the Kings cup runs. So in reality the team is catering to a much smaller demographic and fanbase. Hence the price of tickets can only go so far before the fans stop purchasing them.

[SabreFan1]

Having seen both sides Canadian fans will always have a built in fanbase even with losing seasons. I've said it before, in Canada hockey is the national pastime and a birthright. Fans in the US gravitate towards fandom for multiple teams across genres. If they have a sucky season in hockey they just wait until football or basketball season starts up and forget all about the crappy season their favorite hockey team had.

There is a core of fans, but you won't drive out of Anaheim and LA and find tons of fans of their teams. Sure there are fans here and there, but unlike in Canada the news and fan coverage isn't huge. Even with a Stanley cup win. I remember the freak'n sport anchors couldn't even get the name of the players right during the Kings cup runs. So in reality the team is catering to a much smaller demographic and fanbase. Hence the price of tickets can only go so far before the fans stop purchasing them.

It's funny you mention that. The prevailing joke for a while was, until they won the Stanley Cup, LA had no idea that it even had a hockey team... lol

[The Bookie]

Vancouver's also unique compared to the other Canadian franchises in regards to climate. In those cities the winter is mostly terrible and there's not much else to do than go to games/watch on tv. Especially around this time when our coast gets it's annual 'fake spring', casual fans are naturally going to drift away to other sports or their own outdoor activities. The Canucks would still make money and the die hards would watch most nights, but they wouldn't be selling out.

Like last year when everything was falling apart and the team was on an Eastern trip playing at 4pm - Should I hike to a mountaintop to watch the sunset on the ocean, or watch Tortorella poke Hansen again? wasn't exactly a difficult debate. Although for the most part I still tuned in, it was a lot easier to wander away or turn it off and put it behind me. But that was a particularly stinky garbage pile-up.

Generally I agree w/ Green Building, I just want to see the nightly hustle and the management's plan for the future and I'm in.

[bigbadcanucks]

Toronto is an amazing franchise.

Sells out games. Has not gone to Stanley Cup Finals since 1967. They have not been to a finals since expansion to 12 teams.

Only 2 Conference Finals since 1967.

Most of it is the fault of various owners and ownership groups. They are more interested in money than results.

How do you figure that's the case? The only bad owner the Leafs have had in recent history is Harold Ballard. MLSE as a corporation is a great ownership group -- they built a first class facility for the Leafs and Raptors using private capital and they spend to the cap each year trying to ice a competitive team (not that they've had much success doing this). How does that qualify them as greedy owners? MLSE probably has the highest operating budget of all sports franchises in Canada, which means that they spend a lot of money to generate and maintain fan interest (which they obviously need since the on-ice product always seems to disappoint their fan base year-after-year). If you said the hockey ops is mismanaged, I could buy that, but MLSE, IMO, is a very good ownership group.

Same goes for the Aquillinis. They spend to the cap trying to get us fans the best players available, and for some reason they seem to be vilified by a sizable segment of the Canucks fan base...so what if their equity has grown by $600M and they make annual pre-tax profits of some $50M per season? They took the risk of putting up their money to purchase the team and arena from McCaw who didn't give a rat's @$$ about Vancouver. Good on the Aquillinis for reaping great returns for putting their money on the line.

But back to Sabres' question...I think the tolerance to losing is high in Canada, as long as ownership/hockey ops are committed to doing their best to give fans hope during re-building years and players are giving an honest effort every game. We got nothing else to do during the hockey season, other than skiing at Whistler and heading to Hawaii for a couple of weeks. And, as others have mentioned, Canuck and sports fans understand the cycles that all sports team go through. We know that these are border-line dark days for Canuck fans as the team re-tools while trying to stay competitive, so IMO, playing to 90% - 95% capacity is pretty good.

I was a season ticket holder in Montreal from 1997 to 2003 when they had some bad teams. 19,000 to 20,000 fans filled Le Centre Molson (before it was renamed to Le Centre Bell) which has a capacity of over 22,000 even when they were losing those years, and we've seen how Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa have held their own during difficult years for them, so IMO, fan support is strong in all Canadian cities.

Win or lose, hockey rules in Canada.

[peaches5]

Drop the ticket prices and make the team less popular by tanking. Then you'll see the real fans show up every game.

When I go to games now people sit next to our seats and all they do is talk to each other the whole game. They don't even look at the freaking ice.

Yea because the game is &^@#ing boring

[Lancaster]

I believe Ottawa was having problems during the late 90's and early 2000's. Even back in 08/09, the World Juniors were outdrawing the Senators.

Only Montreal and Toronto are able to maintain sell-offs regardless of record. For Vancouver, I don't remember much pre-94, but I do remember the dark Messier years. Even Tom Larschied said a gun could go off during a game and it wouldn't hit anyone.

The Canucks aren't selling out now because of the type of people in Vancouver. A lot of people here don't bleed Blue and Green. Many people from countries that don't follow hockey, thus aren't inclined to want to follow the team (ex. My wife). As the Canucks have been very competitive for almost 15 years straight, they have gathered a lot of fairweather, bandwagon fans. The whole 2011 riot certainly drove a lot of people away, as being a fan somehow became a negative.

Lastly, it would be ticket prices. Being a season ticket holder costs as much as a mortgage for some folks, so the value isn't there. The atmosphere isn't all that great, even during playoff hockey.

[TOMapleLaughs]

Vancouver's also unique compared to the other Canadian franchises in regards to climate. In those cities the winter is mostly terrible and there's not much else to do than go to games/watch on tv. Especially around this time when our coast gets it's annual 'fake spring', casual fans are naturally going to drift away to other sports or their own outdoor activities. The Canucks would still make money and the die hards would watch most nights, but they wouldn't be selling out.

Like last year when everything was falling apart and the team was on an Eastern trip playing at 4pm - Should I hike to a mountaintop to watch the sunset on the ocean, or watch Tortorella poke Hansen again? wasn't exactly a difficult debate. Although for the most part I still tuned in, it was a lot easier to wander away or turn it off and put it behind me. But that was a particularly stinky garbage pile-up.

Generally I agree w/ Green Building, I just want to see the nightly hustle and the management's plan for the future and I'm in.

I think climate does play an important role here for sure. We're the only major oceanside city in the country with a very, very mild climate.

Buffalo has lows of -22 this week.

Edmonton -9.

TO -23.

Montreal -19.

Vancouver lows +7.

Considering they're the only real game in town, over the years the Canucks' main competition for tickets has been the weather and the outdoor draws available to our community. It is what it is.

I don't think we should have to apologize for being more like LA than the eastern deepfreeze. LA Kings fans don't exist unless there is sustained star power and wins. SJ attendance also dwindled until Jumbo swooped in and saved the day. Turns out all the warm weather teams have this problem. We don't 'have' to stay indoors. Hell, on the weekend I went for an extended late afternoon walk. In mid-February? I don't think that's ever happened before. Changing weather patterns means it's going to continue to get milder here and colder this time of year on the eastern seaboard. Now it's a bit more clear why our real estate is so insanely priced.

[CALGARY!]

I think all of the existing Canadian markets, as well as a few markets not yet tapped (or previously had a team yanked) could and would support their respective team win or lose. I think seeing Winnipeg and Quebec moved in the 90s really wised up alot of Canadian fans as to what could happen if the ownership group sees the fanbase start to lag. I don't imagine most Canadian fans would want to see that sort of thing happen ever again. Ive been going to Flames games since I was 4 in 1988, and have seen alot of great teams iced and alot of awful teams(see late 90s, and 2010-2013) and alot of mediocore teams. For me, if the team is a bottom feeder, ALA Calgary last year, as long as they are putting on an exciting show, and are drafting decent and making moves to improve Im more then happy to attend games/watch. I gotta say during the last lockout shortened season, the Flames were downright boring, no jump, no effort, slow. Iginla had lost his biggest step that season, Kipper was run down from 10 70 plus game seasons, and we didnt have much filler. After Iggy left and we had a total revamp and all the young guys drafted from 08-13 started stepping in it was a whole new energy. Even last season when we finished 4th from the bottom every game was exciting. I was focused more on watching the devolopment of our prospects, and just loving the new team identity and the transisiton to a fast paced young game.

As easy of a point as it is to make, just look a couple hours north of me to Edmonton, they havent seen playoffs since 06, 9 years, they have drafted 1st overall what 3, 4 times? top 5 more then that. Theyve been shunned in free agency by any big name they have tried to attract. Basically a train wreck if ever their was one, but they still sell games out, I still see gobs of people wearing Oiler merchandise here in Calgary, and imagine more so do in Edmonton.

Winnipeg is a tiny little prairie city, even compared to Calgary and Edmonton but if youve been through WPG in the past few years since the Jets came back its just a buck wild atmosphere, never mind the team sucked hard until this season they were and are just all about those Jets.

Canucks have a huge population to draw from in the near vicinity to where they play, as well as being the singular team of their province. Despite the fact that they are heading back down the standings ladder after peaking 3/4 years ago, their fans still support them. Their ticket prices are comparitivly much higher then the 3 aforementionted prairie cities, but they still fill seats. The new management group has inspired the fan base to pull together and support the team as they slowly transition their old core out and find their new core. They wont have any problems, and, as mentioned, the teams supportors have seen them through many dark times as well as great times.

Ottawa fits into the prairie cities mold with me, smaller city but are loving having someone to cheer for other then the Leafs or Habs.

And Montreal and Toronto, well they arent going anywhere. They may be very passionate against losing(Jerseys on ice etc), but nonetheless those incredibly costly tickets are going to be sold each game.

No Canadian fan, or any fan, likes losing, but we'd rather cheer for a losing team, then cheer for some team 2000kms away because our team got moved. In my opinion anyways.

[ubcanuck]

Vancouver's also unique compared to the other Canadian franchises in regards to climate. In those cities the winter is mostly terrible and there's not much else to do than go to games/watch on tv. Especially around this time when our coast gets it's annual 'fake spring', casual fans are naturally going to drift away to other sports or their own outdoor activities. The Canucks would still make money and the die hards would watch most nights, but they wouldn't be selling out.

Like last year when everything was falling apart and the team was on an Eastern trip playing at 4pm - Should I hike to a mountaintop to watch the sunset on the ocean, or watch Tortorella poke Hansen again? wasn't exactly a difficult debate. Although for the most part I still tuned in, it was a lot easier to wander away or turn it off and put it behind me. But that was a particularly stinky garbage pile-up.

Generally I agree w/ Green Building, I just want to see the nightly hustle and the management's plan for the future and I'm in.

Okay, I accept that you might be an exception, but when was the last time someone had to make that choice. I suspect you work for BC Tourism. Hike to a mountaintop to watch the sunset on the ocean or watch a hockey game? Get out and visit or live elsewhere in this great country and you can see why Van is best when visited not lived in.

[HC20.0]

Cue the people who talk about how awful the Canucks fanbase is. I've made this rant before so I'll keep it (fairly) short and sweet. The Canucks have one of the highest values in the league. The team is 45 years old and has endured decades of dreadful hockey. There are so many things to do in BC during the hockey season (compare with say, Edmonton) and the area is a hotbed for hockey at all levels, with a lot of successful junior teams. Winnipeg, Minnesota and Quebec City have lost their teams, and Edmonton and Calgary have been in danger of losing teams before, yet nobody questions the passion of those markets.

The Canucks could survive losing seasons, and I'm sick of all the fans who moan and whine about how terrible Canucks fans are, while excluding themselves from the equation. Go pick a new team with "good" fans and leave us unwashed masses in the dirt.

Man I remember when the Oilers were literally an hour away from relocation. Dark times. I don't think the Flames were close, but their owners did threaten relocation when fans weren't showing up. Both those markets are passionate though, and they have loyal fans despite years of mediocrity. We have so many bandwagon fans here. The diehards are the ones who cheer despite an awful year or two. Not the ones who cheer when we're hot. I'm with you, I'm sick of those fans. Support your team through anything. That's what being a fan is.

[Mustapha]

I can't help but point out that this sport (like most) has become a business first and a sport second.

I remember as a kid going to a game and being enthralled by the fans that wore their team's jersey to the game. I used to say to myself 'Wow, that person must be some sort of Super fan to want to dress like the players!' In today's game, you tend to stick out more if you are NOT wearing a jersey.

The last 20 years seems to be more about selling merchandise and branding than anything else. It's in this period that you see lame mascots (sorry, Fin, but the truth hurts) shameless changing jersey designs (Vancouver is very guilty of this) and advertising that is bombarding the paying customer from the anthem to the final buzzer.

I completely understand how these things have come to be expected in sports entertainment, but it feels a bit more fake each season. The product these days seems to have more hype than substance, and the shootout/loser point system seems to jam swaths of teams into a turtle derby for the last few playoff spots every season.

The business affects the on ice product immensely as well. I can understand changing the rules to protect the players ( ruling out Scott Stevens type checks etc. ) But the real motivating factors are investment and liability. Players are assets that clubs invest in and it is in the league's interest to keep their players (mostly the stars) on the ice, not injured. Plus, there is the constant threat of litigation should an incident arise (Steve Moore)

I am sure the NHL wants to continue phasing out fighting altogether, as it is only a matter of time before someone suffers a fatal injury during a fight.

Finally, there are the players themselves. Many now command salaries that might make it unattractive to have a long hockey career. I am all for a free market system, but considering all the pressure on Canadian teams in the NHL, it would be advisable for young talented players to play in the Sun Belt where the weather is nicer and the pressure isn't as intense. I can easily envision a game where most established players retire before 35 with tens of millions already banked away. Guys who truly love the game may still be there, but it will be the exception, not the norm as it once was.

I know it was a bit of a rant, I just think a simple game with less shiny trinkets and hoopla is better, even if that is gone for good.

[Mustapha]

Man I remember when the Oilers were literally an hour away from relocation. Dark times. I don't think the Flames were close, but their owners did threaten relocation when fans weren't showing up. Both those markets are passionate though, and they have loyal fans despite years of mediocrity. We have so many bandwagon fans here. The diehards are the ones who cheer despite an awful year or two. Not the ones who cheer when we're hot. I'm with you, I'm sick of those fans. Support your team through anything. That's what being a fan is.

I remember Flames had a season ticket drive back around 1999ish and they threatened to move the team to Portland if they didn't sell like 12 or 13000. I might be remembering the details wrong, but it was something like that. In high school I could get a great seat at the Flames game for like 15 bucks. Wasn't that long ago...times have changed quickly.

[TOMapleLaughs]

I am sure the NHL wants to continue phasing out fighting altogether, as it is only a matter of time before someone suffers a fatal injury during a fight.

I think it's a given that fighting is going bye-bye, but you wonder if the NHL will eventually see that hitting goes down to nothing as well.

imho That's a risky business proposition, as fans may become bored with the overall product and seek other forms of entertainment that brings the physical contact they thirst for. Sure there will still be fans of essentially women's hockey, but you'd think a lot of fans would bolt if liability and safety turns the NHL into sarcastahockey. I hope it doesn't go that far. Pro sports in general is heading this way though. Should be interesting to see what alternatives develop. When a league waters down it's product, that paves the way for competitors to waltz in and scoop up the audience.

[The Bookie]

Okay, I accept that you might be an exception, but when was the last time someone had to make that choice. I suspect you work for BC Tourism. Hike to a mountaintop to watch the sunset on the ocean or watch a hockey game? Get out and visit or live elsewhere in this great country and you can see why Van is best when visited not lived in.

Damn, you got me - BC tourism rep outed.

Seriously though that got a good laugh, I literally read that on my phone a couple hours ago sitting at the top of a 1hr hike. Eating a sandwich. It was a decent sandwich, but nothing special.

I've lived in different parts of BC and Canada, and I agree Van is better visited than lived in these days. Have so many great memories from my ~decade there though.

But anyways my point isn't that it has to be an either/or thing; if you spend your afternoon out doing some activity of your own, you might then forego lazing around watching a game on tv that evening because you need to run errands, or catch up on work, or study if you're in school. I'm just saying a casual fan will be more likely to choose option B during a multi-year full rebuild (or a single year of John freakin Tortorella).

[Ronalds.Kenins41]

Man I remember when the Oilers were literally an hour away from relocation. Dark times. I don't think the Flames were close, but their owners did threaten relocation when fans weren't showing up. Both those markets are passionate though, and they have loyal fans despite years of mediocrity. We have so many bandwagon fans here. The diehards are the ones who cheer despite an awful year or two. Not the ones who cheer when we're hot. I'm with you, I'm sick of those fans. Support your team through anything. That's what being a fan is.

Also called stupidity imo.

If our market wasn't full of bandwagon fans our management would never feel any pressure to succeed. In Toronto they haven't had the enormous pressure cause they always sell out (the media is different but still, it makes a difference when you know your team is going to sell out no matter what.

In Vancouver if you don't have success, profits go down and all of a sudden the owner is on you. Plus you have the media and fan pressure.

Only because of the way our market is we have achieved success/ the level of success we just had.

[McBackup]

Okay, I accept that you might be an exception, but when was the last time someone had to make that choice. I suspect you work for BC Tourism. Hike to a mountaintop to watch the sunset on the ocean or watch a hockey game? Get out and visit or live elsewhere in this great country and you can see why Van is best when visited not lived in.

It depends what you're looking for in a place to live. Despite what people think there is no "best" place to live. If you're a business mogul there's no place better than New York. If you love movies LA is the city for you. If you want to hang out at the beach all the time go to Miami, etc. Honestly at this stage in my life there's no place I'd rather be. You've got a vibrant metropolis and rugged wilderness right next to each other. I like the climate, "west coast culture" etc. Van is exactly what I'm looking for, I just wish it weren't so expensive.