Alflives Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 1 minute ago, Crabcakes said: Thoughts on Michael McLoed anybody. Sekeres had somebody on last week who was high on him. He's the 2nd Centre on the ISS top 30 list at No 9 Is the same McLeod who has done NOTHING at the U18s? The kids from Prnticton are dropping in the draft, but having better tournaments than some of these other draft eligible guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odd. Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 Just now, Crabcakes said: Thoughts on Michael McLoed anybody. Sekeres had somebody on last week who was high on him. He's the 2nd Centre on the ISS top 30 list at No 9 I'm high on him too. This guy reminds me of a bit of Seguin in his game. Anybody that picks him around the 10th overall will have a huge gem in their hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ossi Vaananen Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 Just now, Crabcakes said: Thoughts on Michael McLoed anybody. Sekeres had somebody on last week who was high on him. He's the 2nd Centre on the ISS top 30 list at No 9 I was high on him before the Tourny, but he's been underwhelming at the U18s so far. I believe he was penciled in as the 1C ahead of Jost, but Jost quickly surpassed him. He's been used as a utility guy, on the wings and on the PK but heading into the tournament he was looking like the best forward on paper. I think he'll turn it around though as the games get bigger and more important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ossi Vaananen Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 Oh, and I made a U18 thread a while back, for anyone interested: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gstank29 Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 9 minutes ago, Crabcakes said: Thoughts on Michael McLoed anybody. Sekeres had somebody on last week who was high on him. He's the 2nd Centre on the ISS top 30 list at No 9 Overrated and overhyped. He has been awful at the U18s, no speed and hasn't made any type of impact on the game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
messier's_elbow Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 2 hours ago, Gstank29 said: Overrated and overhyped. He has been awful at the U18s, no speed and hasn't made any type of impact on the game He's not even in my top 10. He doesn't have enough finish to be a top 10 pick in my eyes. Future elite 3rd liner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canucks Curse Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 Joseph Woll looks draft eligible, 6'3'' goaltender committed to BC, I say we draft him, he is probably a 3rd rounder? thoughts? currently in goal for the americans at the U-18s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blömqvist Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 Would rather Jost than McLeod. The big question with Jost -- and Fabbro for that matter -- was how they would stack up against their peers as they were playing in the BCHL instead of the WHL/OHL/QMJHL. They've really answered that question with excellent performances so far, outplaying their draft eligible Canadian peers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noseforthenet Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 Just been reading up some more on Tyson Jost. He's committed to...North Dakota this season coming up. Is this why his stock has dropped? If he is such a stud out there, this shouldn't matter. By all accounts, he should be a high pick. Definitely higher than mid teens. A team like the Blackhawks would be licking their lips at a chance to draft this guy. I'm sold. If we are talking about guys like Pullijarvi, Dubois, Tkachuk, Nylander all being in our wheelhouse where we will likely draft, why not Jost? He's gonna be playing with Boeser next year anyways. We know he would be in a great development program. With him skating circles around guys like McLeod and Chychrun looking less prominent around players whom they should be dominating against, Jost deserves a HARD look. I'm just getting that feeling we would regret not drafting that kid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derp... Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 Firstly what if Jost pulls a Vesey and comes to play in BC!? Or Fabbro for that Matter!>? Secondly anyone know much about GRAHAM MCPHEE? Committed to BC and could be a 5th or 6th rounder? http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=226444 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noseforthenet Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 1 hour ago, Derp... said: Firstly what if Jost pulls a Vesey and comes to play in BC!? Or Fabbro for that Matter!>? Secondly anyone know much about GRAHAM MCPHEE? Committed to BC and could be a 5th or 6th rounder? http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=226444 All I know is I am going to throw up if a team like the Hawks are allowed to pick him because teams in the top 10 are in a rush to get guys into their lineup. Fact is, there are a good amount of quality guys coming out of college. Bjugstad, Hutton, Gaudreau. There are more on the way as well. This kid wants to be part of a winning culture. He wants to win. By the time he is ready to be an NHL player, we are gonna want him in the lineup. We can afford to wait for him to be ready. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toews Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 18 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: But that’s what I’m saying, you’re assuming the secondary assist isn’t the driving force of offence. You’re writing it off as if the importance is less value than the primary assist. You cannot do that. An assist is an assist doesn’t matter where they puck was touched, it was a part of a step that resulted in a goal. Next thing we going to be breaking down goals that went in off a players foot unexpectedly. How do we know that the primary assist was a result of a driving force of the play, it could have just as easily been a break out pass where the goal score walk around 5 players and scored. More often than not, the secondary assist is the direct cause for a goal. That’s my point, unless you’re going through each goal and deconstructing how important Tkachuks presence was, you’re providing a misleading statistic. You’re assuming and assumption do not belong in definite statistics. You’re putting way to much work into something that has about the same value as me stating an opinion. Neither have accurate evidence to back it up. London fans on HF say that Tkachuk hasn't been the one driving the play. He benefits more from playing with his linemates than they do from him. They still think he has great potential, the ability to be a 1st line forward with the grit, like a tougher JVR. It may also be worth noting that last year when Domi was at the WJC, Marner and Dvorak tore it up. I am really curious to see how Tkachuk does next year when both of them will be in the NHL. Also to address the debate about primary points vs secondary points. If you have a large enough sample size, primary points (goals and 1st assists) > secondary points. A lot of analysts use the PP/60 stat (Primary Points per 60 minutes) to judge a player's contributions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gstank29 Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 Nowhere on the HF forum has there been multiple London fans that say Tkachuk is a product of his linemates. They have said that Tkachuk is just as important a member on that line as Marner or Dvorak. As it has been stated before discounting secondary assists completely is a mistake and purely using stats as a indicator of a player "talent" is also a mistake. You can't discount something simply because you want to, a secondary assist could be just an important as a primary assist. IE Tkachuk wins a board battles takes it to the net, passes it and another player scores on the rebound do we discredit that simply because it was a "secondary assist". As for analysts using PP/60, only couch analysts use that stat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 2 minutes ago, Gstank29 said: No where on the HF forum has there been multiple london fans that say Tkachuk is a product of his linemates. They have said that Tkachuk is just as important a member on that line as Marner or Dvorak. As it has been stated before discounting secondary assists completely is a mistake and purely using stats as a indicator of a player "talent" is also a mistake. You can't discount something simply because you want to, a secondary assist could be just an important as a primary assist. IE Tkachuk wins a board battles takes it to the net, passes it and another player scores on the rebound do we discredit that simply because it was a "secondary assist". So is Tkatchuk the most important piece on that line, and he's the one that makes the other two better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 1 hour ago, Toews said: London fans on HF say that Tkachuk hasn't been the one driving the play. He benefits more from playing with his linemates than they do from him. They still think he has great potential, the ability to be a 1st line forward with the grit, like a tougher JVR. It may also be worth noting that last year when Domi was at the WJC, Marner and Dvorak tore it up. I am really curious to see how Tkachuk does next year when both of them will be in the NHL. Also to address the debate about primary points vs secondary points. If you have a large enough sample size, primary points (goals and 1st assists) > secondary points. A lot of analysts use the PP/60 stat (Primary Points per 60 minutes) to judge a player's contributions. If the secondary assist is so meaningless, why does the NHL keep track of it. Did Henrik win the art ross with 104 points or did he only have 65? Would the goal still have went in without the secondary assist? To discredit the secondary assist as if it meaningless is just plain stupid For the most part only leafs and rangers fans (trying to pump up Nash’s value) discard secondary assist, I remember having this debate with a leafs fan as while back as to why he thought Kadri is a better playmaker than Henrik, because Kadri had more primary assist then Henrik at the time. But as we all know Sedins aren’t typically the ones the put the puck in the net. The twins drive the play, they suck the opposition close into them and when it’s least expected they find the open man who scores, be it King, Klatt, Arvedson, Bert, Carter, Burrows, or even Vbrata. So do we discredit the fact that Hank happened to touch the puck prior to Danny, even though they both controlled the play for the previous 30 seconds. Does that mean Hank is a non-factor on the goal? So again unless we are breaking down each goal one by one (and even the plays that didn’t go in) and then determining how much impact each player had on the play, it’s unproductive to state and make generalizations off data that hasn’t been fully broken down. When it comes down to who we pick, once we determine what spot we are in, I would fully expect our scouting staff to re watch every shift each player, in our range, played this year (roughly 27 hours of video per player). I’m not here to argue Tkachuk vs Dubois. I haven’t watched enough Dubois to make that call. Just stating that discrediting the secondary assist, or basing things off point production isn’t a sure factor way to determine which player is better and thus more valuable to a canucks franchise going forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boudrias Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 15 hours ago, Ossi Vaananen said: I watched the U18 game as well today, and I was impressed with Jost, Bitten, Howden and Fabbro. Jost is an all around stud, Bitten is an undersized pest that draws penalties, and Fabbro is quickly separating himself as the better D over Chychrun. It occured to me that much of the Canadian roster is ranked in the late 1st to mid 2nd. If guys like Stanley, Bitten, Howden, Kyrou, and Laberge, then it's worth getting excited about our 2nd rounder. I was also impressed with Fitzpatrick, the goaltender - he too would be a steal outside of the first. I prefer seeing a player live rather than TV. Fabbro more likely to make a safe play. Not knowing Chychrun game well enough I am reluctant to pass judgement. The coach has that pairing out as his #1 pairing and plays them in all situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stierlitz Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 Ryan Biech @ryanbiech 25m25 minutes ago At this moment, #Canucks have following picks: 3rd overall (pre-lottery) 33rd 63rd 93rd 153rd 183rd 193rd (CAR 7th) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thejazz97 Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 18 minutes ago, Stierlitz said: Ryan Biech @ryanbiech 25m25 minutes ago At this moment, #Canucks have following picks: 3rd overall (pre-lottery) 33rd 63rd 93rd 153rd 183rd 193rd (CAR 7th) I've got a feeling we get #1 or #2. Would like Luke Green at 33 as well if we get the chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prix57 Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 28 minutes ago, Stierlitz said: Ryan Biech @ryanbiech 25m25 minutes ago At this moment, #Canucks have following picks: 3rd overall (pre-lottery) 33rd 63rd 93rd 153rd 183rd 193rd (CAR 7th) How long until Benning trades the 2nd (33rd) for Linden Vey 2.0? Also when will we know when Columbus decides to give us their 2nd pick for which draft year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toews Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 2 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: If the secondary assist is so meaningless, why does the NHL keep track of it. Did Henrik win the art ross with 104 points or did he only have 65? Would the goal still have went in without the secondary assist? To discredit the secondary assist as if it meaningless is just plain stupid For the most part only leafs and rangers fans (trying to pump up Nash’s value) discard secondary assist, I remember having this debate with a leafs fan as while back as to why he thought Kadri is a better playmaker than Henrik, because Kadri had more primary assist then Henrik at the time. But as we all know Sedins aren’t typically the ones the put the puck in the net. The twins drive the play, they suck the opposition close into them and when it’s least expected they find the open man who scores, be it King, Klatt, Arvedson, Bert, Carter, Burrows, or even Vbrata. So do we discredit the fact that Hank happened to touch the puck prior to Danny, even though they both controlled the play for the previous 30 seconds. Does that mean Hank is a non-factor on the goal? So again unless we are breaking down each goal one by one (and even the plays that didn’t go in) and then determining how much impact each player had on the play, it’s unproductive to state and make generalizations off data that hasn’t been fully broken down. When it comes down to who we pick, once we determine what spot we are in, I would fully expect our scouting staff to re watch every shift each player, in our range, played this year (roughly 27 hours of video per player). I’m not here to argue Tkachuk vs Dubois. I haven’t watched enough Dubois to make that call. Just stating that discrediting the secondary assist, or basing things off point production isn’t a sure factor way to determine which player is better and thus more valuable to a canucks franchise going forward. No one is saying that secondary assists are meaningless. Their value is less than primary points provided there is a sufficiently large sample size. We don't necessarily need the eye test to predict certain trends. There is enough data available that we can achieve a greater understanding of which stat is more valuable. Bringing up individual instances in order to prove a point is meaningless. No one has the time to go through every single game and document the importance of every single point which of course is also entirely subjective. Besides there is no need to do that when we can predict a trend with enough data. To give you an example Team A regularly gets outshot but somehow finds ways to win. The fans of Team A who claim to watch the team say that the coach is employing a strategy where the volume of shots may have increased but the quality of chances is much lower. Of course the next season the team's PDO declines and they start losing again. The statistics predicted that they would decline as regularly getting outshot is not sustainable means to success. Do I need to watch every single game to know the quality of the shots? No, because based on what the stats tell us, in a large enough sample size the quality of shots does not matter. Does that actually mean that the quality of a shot is not important? No, just when we are examining large amounts of data. Similarly in the case of secondary assists there is a high degree of variance telling us that secondary assists are "luck" based. Hence primary points are a much more accurate indicator of a player's play. Here is an article that is an oldie but still a goodie that illustrates this effect. http://www.broadstreethockey.com/2011/3/15/2046512/simplify-scoring-drop-secondary-assists Baumerman asked the best question. If we were to track tertiary assists, would we need to watch every play to know the importance of the stat? No, because it's far more likely that the further removed a play is from the goal the less likely will be it's importance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.