Discussion The morality of tanking

[The Lock]

The bottom 4 teams should have a mini tournament for who gets to pick 1-4th at the end of the season so that teams who are shamelessly trying to be the worst (Buffalo) will at least put in a little bit of effort.

From a business standpoint, this would actually make sense. Those teams would be granted a few more games that fans could attend; therefore, more money for the bottom teams would come in. This, of course, is provided those teams are actually making money each game.

[Nucksfollower1983]

Elvis just stop, really man. If cdc wanted you to be a mod they would give you a job as one but they haven't. Take the hint.

P.S. don't forget to vote

[ForsbergTheGreat]

Since the introduction of the salary cap, the overwhelming majority of teams who won the cup picked in the top 5 at least 3 times in the 5 years preceding their victory.

Carolina (2006) - Staal (2003,2), Ladd (2004,4), Johnson (2005,3)

Anaheim (2007) - Ryan (2005,2) [only one, but look at their 2003]

Detroit (2008) - Lol we turn late picks into Lindstrom, Datsyuk and Zetterberg

Pittsburgh (2009) - Malkin (2004,2), Crosby (2005,1), Staal (2006,2) [also Fleury in 2003 #1 overall)

Chicago (2010) - Toews (2006,3), Kane (2007,1)

Boston (2011) - Kessel(2006,5), Seguin (2010,2) [i know...]

LA (2012) - Hickey (2007,4), Doughty (2008,2), Schenn (2009,2)

Chicago (2013) - See 2010

LA (2014) - See 2012

If you were to stretch it to top 10 picks over 7 years - you'd see even more. Does tanking always work? Edmonton 2008-present. Do you need to tank to win? Not always. But if you do it right, it sure seems to help.

You realize that you named 13 out of 65 players, You missed good old cam barker, so that's 14 out of 65, if we go back to 2003. I've bolded the ones that actually won a cup and had somewhat of an impact. Were now down to 8 players of out 65. Less than 15%.

There's plenty of teams that have drafted multiple top 5 picks without a cup.

Atlanta/Winnipeg

Kane (2009,4)

Bogosian (2008,3)

Lehtonen (2002,2)

Kovalchuk (2001,1)

Heatley (2000,2)

Stefan (1999,1)

Florida

Ekblad (2014,1)

Barkov (2013,2)

Huberdeau (2011,3)

Gudbranson (2010,3)

Horton (2003,3)

Bouwmeester (2002,3)

Weiss (2001,4)

Islanders

Dal Colle (2014,5)

Reinhart (2012,4)

Strome (2011,5)

Niederreiter (2010,5)

Tavares (2009,1)

DiPietro (2000,1)

Connolly (1999,5)

Luongo (1997,4)

Brewer (1997,5)

Dumont (1996,3)

Wedden (1995,2)

Capitals

Alzner (2007,5)

Backstrom (2006,4)

Ovechkin (2004,1)

Blue Jackets

Murray (2012,2)

Johansen (2010,4)

Zherdev (2003,4)

Nash (2002,1)

Klesla (2000,4)

Edmonton

Draisaitl (2014,3)

Yakupov (2012,1)

Nugent-Hopkins (2011,1)

Hall (2010,1)

I'm not saying picking top 5 is a bad thing, you can really get some good players in that spot, but it's not key to winning the cup and it sure doesn't guarantee success (not saying you were implying that).

[ForsbergTheGreat]

The bottom 4 teams should have a mini tournament for who gets to pick 1-4th at the end of the season so that teams who are shamelessly trying to be the worst (Buffalo) will at least put in a little bit of effort.

Gm's and coaches would like this but there's not really a lot in it for the players. Why would they want to put in effort and possibly risk injury for a player that will likely be taking there roster spot.

[elvis15]

Elvis just stop, really man. If cdc wanted you to be a mod they would give you a job as one but they haven't. Take the hint.

P.S. don't forget to vote

Did I type too much for you to understand? Maybe I did, since it confused you enough that you thought is was a good idea to create a thread just for me - in Canucks Talk no less...

But then were in a thread about the morality of tanking and I've had plenty to say on the subject (see my multiple posts, from the first to the last). Do you have something to add on topic or are you just here to troll?

Gm's and coaches would like this but there's not really a lot in it for the players. Why would they want to put in effort and possibly risk injury for a player that will likely be taking there roster spot.

Not too mention they'd be hard to convince to take the "no pay in the playoffs" model to play extra games, particularly when they'd be playing for a prize that means nothing to them since either a.) is to get the 1st overall and draft a player that might replace them/push them out of the lineup, or b.) they already are heading to retirement, UFA, etc. and won't be with the team next year or through the rebuild.

Then there's the point that fans (to bring it back around to them as the OP's point, although he seems to have disappeared) might pay to see their crappy team play a better one, but they probably won't want to pay to see games against other bottom feeders. They might get better value from an AHL game or something similar at that point, since that's the quality of play they'd be seeing anyway.

[Master Mind]

Question: Would Pittsburgh's tanking have worked if they didn't win the league-wide Crosby lottery?

I don't think Malkin, Staal, Fleury, and the immortal Ryan Whitney would have got the job done. Also, there were a lot of giant flops in the first round of the Crosby draft, so had they not hit the jackpot, they could have easily picked a bust there too.

A tank that involves a lottery win is the worst kind IMO. Not only was their team awful, but then they get handed the best pick without even being the worst team. Goes against the idea of giving the most help the the team that needs it most.

The bottom 4 teams should have a mini tournament for who gets to pick 1-4th at the end of the season so that teams who are shamelessly trying to be the worst (Buffalo) will at least put in a little bit of effort.

Only problem would be that there wouldn't be a full team effort in those games. If you're a player, why try and get a player who could take your spot in the lineup?

[Mustapha]

I'm still not convinced 'tanking' is something teams actively do. It might seem that way, but the players on the ice generally are competitive and want to win. I have a hard time believing a team can convince 23 guys to throw away a season.

There are going to be good teams and not-so-good teams. Even the worst teams in the NHL have won games against league leaders, so even though it looks like a huge drop from 1st to 30th, there is more parity in the league than one might assume.

I can easily see a Dallas or Colorado, Columbus or the Flyers being playoff teams next year. They aren't that far off, and several cases, injuries to key players haven't helped.

When you look at a team like Edmonton (horrendous start to the season) or Buffalo (horrid defensively early on) they don't need THAT much to improve. I have always said that the problem in Edmonton is poor coaching (all the way back to Tom Renney) and Buffalo just needs to tighten up defensively next season, and you might see drastic differences

[S N Y P E R S 7]

Tanking is just another way of playing the game.

When breaking down morality of a situation, you have to look at using people as mere means.

Are the players buying into "tanking"? If not, then the higher-ups should be doing whatever they can to help the team win because the players on the field are thinking of themselves as competitive.

If the team is buying into the tanking and has given up, then they are still playing the game. They are playing with full knowledge of what they are doing and where they want to go. Nobody is being used as mere means as they have all bought into the same concept with the same goals.

At the end of the day sportsmanship is a balance between two vices: extreme seriousness and extreme frivolity.

If the players are considered in the mean between the two, and are still tanking, then they are still playing the game in the way they believe is fit.

When you stop playing the game, then you are no longer a part of it.

Teams who tank are still playing the game, but with eyes to the future and the long run. They are still a part of it, except in a different way than the rest of the teams in the league.

[MoneypuckOverlord]

Lol tanking. It has failed big time for teams like Columbus Edmonton and Carolina out of the top of my head. It's funny how Edmonton mentioned Pittsburgh and Chicago as their model a few years ago. Epic fail.

There's more to building a team that finishing low and drafting high. If it was that easy any pine can be a gm then.

[UFCanuck]

Tim Murray can't keep his mouth shut.

User Actions

Following

NHL EXPERT PICKS‏@NHLexpertpicks

#Sabres GM Murray on McDavid 'I watch him too much and I think too much about him...I wish I could help myself.' #TankForMcDavid

[-SN-]

That's a weeeird thing to say.

[The Bookie]

[Sean Monahan]

Tim Murray can't keep his mouth shut.

45]

User Actions FollowingNHL EXPERT PICKS‏@NHLexpertpicks

#Sabres GM Murray on McDavid 'I watch him too much and I think too much about him...I wish I could help myself.' #TankForMcDavid

Haha I was hoping someone would post that. Didn't he say something along the lines of "I've gave up too many good pieces of this team not to get him" too?

[canuckmunk]

just have a lottery with all non playoff teams getting equal chances at picks 1-14 then go by standings for all the other rounds. Tanking problem solved.

[cuporbust]

If a team is willing to pay the price of a horrid season for a franchise player , the horrible season is its own punishment. As much as we don't seem to understand , managing is like a game within the game. Sure , if a team is not going to make much headway for their future by moving a few players around or signing free agents , and they decide to wait it out instead , I personally have no issue with it. It's about strategy in a salary cap era. It's not like a team could accomplish this unless they were already close to being brutal anyways. It would take more then one season to build a losing team in hopes of one big prospect. I think it's more like the teams already out of the possibility of doing anything really worthwhile and are just being patient and thinking about the long term instead of putting bandaids on a gapping wound.

[oldnews]

Tim Murray can't keep his mouth shut.

User Actions

Following

NHL EXPERT PICKS‏@NHLexpertpicks

#Sabres GM Murray on McDavid 'I watch him too much and I think too much about him...I wish I could help myself.' #TankForMcDavid

Disgusting.

I hope the Sabres and Oilers spend a decade in the basement. They deserve it.

The team that should win the lottery is the Columbus Blue Jackets.

They've had absolutely horrible luck this year with injuries, but have done their best to compete, and have gone on an outstanding run of 10 wins in 11 games when the rest of the also-rans are making disgusting jokes of their franchises.

May the 'hockey gods' send McDavid to Columbus, please.

[theminister]

Disgusting.

I hope the Sabres and Oilers spend a decade in the basement. They deserve it.

The team that should win the lottery is the Columbus Blue Jackets.

They've had absolutely horrible luck this year with injuries, but have done their best to compete, and have gone on an outstanding run of 10 wins in 11 games when the rest of the also-rans are making disgusting jokes of their franchises.

May the 'hockey gods' send McDavid to Columbus, please.

Bettman is sending him to Arizona… you know he is.

If one more year fails to put them in the black even with the kid then they'll move them to another city and he'll be the marketing centre for that new city. It makes too much sense.

You can Bettman your life on it.

[oldnews]

Bettman is sending him to Arizona… you know he is.

If one more year fails to put them in the black even with the kid then they'll move them to another city and he'll be the marketing centre for that new city. It makes too much sense.

You can Bettman your life on it.

No doubt, but if the fix is in, I wouldn't count out the centre of the universe.

And imo they qualify, for all intents and purposes, as an American franchise.

[jmahyoung]

I don't like it...

The lottery is obviously designed to discourage this activity.

Long term it's not good for your fans, it will make them cynical sitting through intentional losses. Would you pay $100+ for a ticket where you knew your team was going to intentionally lose? If teams let that knowledge out, it would really negatively impact their bottom line. Which is why it's _never_ the official position.

The worst team will get 20% chance at McDavid. Which isn't that big of a return especially once you consider the negative impact on fans, players wanting to leave in free agency, loss of moderate to older age players who won't have the patience to wait 7 years for a rebuild, and the fact that just because you draft a player doesn't mean they will want to stay on your team or that you will want them on your team long term. So many examples of this, including Gretzky, Kovalchuk, etc.

The people who want the Canucks to tank want to go away for 2-3 years and wait for the team to get better, then jump on the bandwagon again. But what about the bottom line during those years? They have stadiums to fill and bills to pay and do not want empty stadiums and upset, disillusioned fans. That's why season ticket holders are so valuable too of course.

[Bobby_Lu1ngo]

Tanking is not a good plan for a franchise that wants to won anytime in the near future. Even if Buffalo get mcd they will still be a few years away from being a playoff team. The league is too good, too competitive, and too balanced.

If you are a good team with annoff year and llts of injuries etc then it might be worth waving the flag for the year to drop a ways down and pick up a better player for the bounce back. Similar to islanders last year or ourselves.

This year is a little different from a tanking perspective as there are 2 gems to draft so by finishing last you are guaranteed one of the two.

I would be so happy if this was the year a team on like 7th or 8th pulls the upset lottery win though. If it were to happen and say cbj, philly, or avs or something did win (assuming the lottery is an actual barrel of balls they say it is). Im sure that would put an end to deliberate tanking.