Should we trade Miller in the summer? [Discussion]

[aGENT]

Despite playing fine that 2nd game, he never saw the light of day again, even when Lack was faltering and had played something like 20 games in 42 days during the busy part of the schedule with his team having gone through a stretch with most of the regular defencemen and a couple of the forwards out with injuries.

In fairness, I think that had more to do with battling for a playoff spot/home ice than any commentary on Markstrom specifically.

[Canada Hockey Place]

Part of the problem with VAN fans' treatment of goalies recently is they haven't seen a bad goalie in years. Been spoiled lately.

We are lucky to have GMs who value/over-value goaltending. Benning, Gillis even Nonis. Anyone who remembers the Burke-era will remember.

In goal for VAN in 1999: Felix Potvin, Garth Snow, Kevin Weekes and in the pipeline are Corey Schwab and Alfie Michaud.

Careful what you wish for.

[VegasCanuck]

Part of the problem with VAN fans' treatment of goalies recently is they haven't seen a bad goalie in years. Been spoiled lately.

We are lucky to have GMs who value/over-value goaltending. Benning, Gillis even Nonis. Anyone who remembers the Burke-era will remember.

In goal for VAN in 1999: Felix Potvin, Garth Snow, Kevin Weekes and in the pipeline are Corey Schwab and Alfie Michaud.

Careful what you wish for.

Remember, this thread isn't about whether Miller is a good goalie or not. I think he's been a really good addition to the team and all things being equal, I'd probably keep him another season.

That said, there's the whole economics issue (Cap may only be 70 million) that we have to deal with and with that in mind and looking at who else we still need to sign. All that in mind, would you feel comfortable trading Miller and running with Lack and either Markstrom or someone else that you could sign through free agency to backup Lack.

One of the 3 guys that we have won't be able to stay next year either from a cap issue or clearing waivers.

Are you comfortable in trading Markstrom (who is showing really good promise) for probably next to nothing?

Are you comfortable trading Lack and having Markstrom backup Miller next year? (we probably get more return on Lack than Markstrom at the moment)

We are going to be tight regardless. If you're GM, what would you do?

[D-Money]

Nope. Lack isn't ready for full time yet.

I haven't always been the biggest Lack believer, but I firmly disagree with this argument (with one caveat).

Lack is 27 years old. He's played 2 seasons, with 41 games each. Rather than being spread out, most of his games were bunched together due to him being the de facto starter because of trade/injury. By comparison, when we traded Schneider he hadn't played more than 33 games in a season, and yet most were confident that he was ready. It was only this season that Cory finally played over 45 games.

Last year Lack faded down the stretch...but think of all the reasons why:

1) rookie season

2) missed almost the entire previous season (and offseason training) due to serious injury and rehab

3) played a ridiculous number of games in a row

4) extra pressure and drama from Luongo trade

5) the team in front of him was a tire fire

This year, without all of those factors applying, he looks damn good, and seems to be getting better and better. I think he's ready...unless...

[CAVEAT] ...he crumbles in the playoffs.

[Canada Hockey Place]

Remember, this thread isn't about whether Miller is a good goalie or not. I think he's been a really good addition to the team and all things being equal, I'd probably keep him another season.

That said, there's the whole economics issue (Cap may only be 70 million) that we have to deal with and with that in mind and looking at who else we still need to sign. All that in mind, would you feel comfortable trading Miller and running with Lack and either Markstrom or someone else that you could sign through free agency to backup Lack.

One of the 3 guys that we have won't be able to stay next year either from a cap issue or clearing waivers.

Are you comfortable in trading Markstrom (who is showing really good promise) for probably next to nothing?

Are you comfortable trading Lack and having Markstrom backup Miller next year? (we probably get more return on Lack than Markstrom at the moment)

We are going to be tight regardless. If you're GM, what would you do?

Honestly. I don't know. Just prefer to look at it as being blessed with goalies unlike in the past. Therefore I guess my opinion is, I don't think there is a clear right or wrong decision to be made. And I don't want to look at it as a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario. I'd rather see it as win-win.

Like a few years ago if you asked me to keep Luongo or Schnieder? My answer would have been, I don't care as long as you keep one of them. But the answer ended up being "none of the above". Which I didn't even think would be an option. But it all worked out. And Lack will be playing more playoff games than Luongo or Schneider this year.

And I feel the depth in goal now is better than it has ever been. I mean we don't even talk about Eriksson, a legit AHL starter, probably top prospect on most other teams, 4th 5th string in VAN.

[VegasCanuck]

Honestly. I don't know. Just prefer to look at it as being blessed with goalies unlike in the past. Therefore I guess my opinion is, I don't think there is a clear right or wrong decision to be made. And I don't want to look at it as a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario. I'd rather see it as win-win.

Like a few years ago if you asked me to keep Luongo or Schnieder? My answer would have been, I don't care as long as you keep one of them. But the answer ended up being "none of the above". Which I didn't even think would be an option. But it all worked out. And Lack will be playing more playoff games than Luongo or Schneider this year.

And I feel the depth in goal now is better than it has ever been. I mean we don't even talk about Eriksson, a legit AHL starter, probably top prospect on most other teams, 4th 5th string in VAN.

Its an incredibly hard question to answer, and that was the light I asked it in.

The variable that we don't know is, what number will we be working with for cap. With Miller and Lack sharing duties again, going off NHL Numbers, we are at 66.41 million next year.

Conservatively, let's go with 71.5 million cap. Popular opinion I've been seeing in the press as a general rule is 70 - 73 million, but with the Canadian dollar predicted to trend lower next year, my personal opinion is that the league will opt to go a little lower if they increase it at all. That's with 17 players signed, plus the 800k hold over from Luongo (he better not retire anytime soon).

So, assuming a 23 man roster next year, that's 5.09 million to get our team nailed back together.

Players we need to sign or replace (just who would normally be on roster):

Matthais (2.5 million if he really likes it here?)

Richardson (I think they will let him walk)

Vey (900k)

Kennins (750k one way, I think he's shown he should be full time NHL next year)

McMillian (I don't think they will offer him a QO, he walks)

Baertschi (900k one way, can't see him in Utica considering what we gave up for him)

Weber (has been impressive for last part of season, not sure we can fit him in RFA so maybe 900k bridge)

Unless anyone disagrees with my numbers, that's a hair under 6 million.

Moving Miller and running Lack and Markstrom as a combo would free up about 4.5 million assuming we had to resign Markstrom as an RFA for about 1.5 for 2 years as a bridge deal.

Am I missing something on numbers? Feel free to point it out if I am. My math is telling me that before the puck drops in Oct, someone with a reasonable cap hit has to go!

[Crabcakes]

Since we don't know the new cap, I'm not willing to sharpen my pencil and try to figure out precise numbers. Having said that, I think that somehow the Canucks will have to shed around $5M or so.

1. They can do this by moving Miller which allows them to bring back all the skaters. Or,
2. Trim a little salary and retain the best goalie they have.

Option 2 is more likely in my opinion because Benning considers goaltending to be the most important position and is therefore the least likely place that he will compromise. The second reason is that trading an older asset for picks also achieves another goal of Bennings. I expect that Matthias may also not be resigned.

[Crabcakes]

double post

[Junkyard Dog]

We could sign/PTO a vet UFA goalie to push Markstrom in the fall and trade/waive whoever isn't up to snuff.

Just saying...

There's very little reason to keep Miller and his $6m cap hit next season IMO. Two starting goalies is a luxury, not a necessity. It's also not viable long term IMO (GOALIE CONTROVERSY!!! ).

Never mind the waste of cap space.

2 years he is gone so that is not a long term problem. I don't know what you were trying to get at there . Miller is a stop gap and here to help us stay competitive, like the Vrbata signing. Both have been worth the signings.

Miller was well aware of the situation he could get himself in when he signed here and Lack has probably the best personality among all goalies in the NHL. There's no doubt in my mind that these two can co-exist.

Lack goes down long term like Miller did I don't trust Markstrom or any veteran backup to carry the weight. I do trust Miller carrying that weight or Lack.

We have had success with 2 goalies before so why not continue that trend as best as we can? It worked out well this season why risk messing with things?

[mll]

Since we don't know the new cap, I'm not willing to sharpen my pencil and try to figure out precise numbers. Having said that, I think that somehow the Canucks will have to shed around $5M or so.

1. They can do this by moving Miller which allows them to bring back all the skaters. Or,
2. Trim a little salary and retain the best goalie they have.

Option 2 is more likely in my opinion because Benning considers goaltending to be the most important position and is therefore the least likely place that he will compromise. The second reason is that trading an older asset for picks also achieves another goal of Bennings. I expect that Matthias may also not be resigned.

According to Friedman the cap may go to 68M but agents/executives will try and agree on a higher amount - he speculates 70M.

http://www.sportsnet...se-next-season/

Trevor Linden was on Rintoul last night and this segment is pretty interesting. Among other things he said that the recent signings were done with a clear plan in mind, that they are comfortable that they will be able to sign the guys they need to sign (and confirmed that Weber was one of them), they know that they have options this summer and that there's still work to do. Talked also about the difficulty of signing free agents and the flexibility that salary retention allows.

Here's the extract for about 3minutes: https://soundcloud.c...3-hour1#t=42:12

[aGENT]

2 years he is gone so that is not a long term problem. I don't know what you were trying to get at there . Miller is a stop gap and here to help us stay competitive, like the Vrbata signing. Both have been worth the signings.

Miller was well aware of the situation he could get himself in when he signed here and Lack has probably the best personality among all goalies in the NHL. There's no doubt in my mind that these two can co-exist.

Lack goes down long term like Miller did I don't trust Markstrom or any veteran backup to carry the weight. I do trust Miller carrying that weight or Lack.

We have had success with 2 goalies before so why not continue that trend as best as we can? It worked out well this season why risk messing with things?

Because it's inefficient use of cap space to have $6m sitting on the bench for 1/2 the games. That money could be better spent upgrading our D and playing every game.

Miller was indeed a stop gap...well guess what? There's no or very little gap anymore.

[VegasCanuck]

According to Friedman the cap may go to 68M but agents/executives will try and agree on a higher amount - he speculates 70M.

http://www.sportsnet...se-next-season/

Trevor Linden was on Rintoul last night and this segment is pretty interesting. Among other things he said that the recent signings were done with a clear plan in mind, that they are comfortable that they will be able to sign the guys they need to sign (and confirmed that Weber was one of them), they know that they have options this summer and that there's still work to do. Talked also about the difficulty of signing free agents and the flexibility that salary retention allows.

Here's the extract for about 3minutes: https://soundcloud.c...3-hour1#t=42:12

Wow, could you imagine if the cap actually went down? WTH does Chicago do if the cap went down to 68 million. They have 14 guys signed right now for roughly 65.8 million. Imagine trying to reconstruct that team with 2.2 million to spend and you can't really trade (or giveaway) Hossa with the problems in his contract.

We could be in a lot worse shape, but I think if it goes down to 68, or even just up to 70 million, I can't see how we keep Miller on the team. Not without trading someone else fairly major.

There's really only a few contracts on the team that you could realistically move to make the type of space we need.

Burrows (Can't see us moving him)

Vrbata (same as Burrows)

Edler (would be shocked if we moved him)

Bieksa (need his toughness on defense)

Hamhuis (same as Edler, would be shocked)

Unless someone see's something that I don't I really don't see how we get around moving Miller if we plan on being under the cap next year.

Anyone else have different thoughts?

[zoner.]

Unless someone see's something that I don't I really don't see how we get around moving Miller if we plan on being under the cap next year.

Anyone else have different thoughts?

I sure hope that people aren't having different thoughts. It's either the Canucks dump Miller, or they have to move one of Hamhuis/Bieksa and one of Higgins/Hansen to clear the appropriate space needed to fill out the roster. I'd rather sacrifice the aging goaltender on the back half of his career than our roster's depth. Dorsett and Sbisa's new contracts have painted the team into a tough spot in regards to cap space, something will have to be done in the off-season.

[nickels555]

With the recent signings on D (Tanev, Sbisa)..there is no chance that both Bieksa and Hamhuis will be back next season. One will go for sure, and hopefully, they can find a destination for Miller.

[aGENT]

Anyone else have different thoughts?

Before I start, let me say that I'm ABSOLUTELY for trading Miller. It simply makes sense.

But if one did want to retain him, you could start by not re-signing Matthias, and moving at least one of Hansen/Higgins (which may happen anyways). That gets you a fair bit of the way there

That said, I wouldn't be all that surprised if we end up moving one of Hamhuis/Bieksa either.

[CRAZY_4_NAZZY]

Im not quite sold on Eddie being a starter yet.

He has done great down the stretch for us when we needed him...but he wasn't really the true number one. back in his mind, he is thinking "okay gotta hold the fort til Milsy gets back".

I will wait to see how he responds in the playoffs and how he deals with that. If he can pull through and be solid than maybe just maybe he might sway my mind.

But JB brought Miller in to be his guy and tbh lets not forget what Miller has done for us the first 2/3 of the season for us. He was our guy and easily we forget that because Lack was at the forefront the past 2 months. I find it hard to believe JB would quickly give up on his go to guy within a year. Also I cannot see how he could justify to the management saying they spent 6 mil a summer ago to get this guy just the push him out the door a year later....its very hard to justify that

[mll]

[...]

Unless someone see's something that I don't I really don't see how we get around moving Miller if we plan on being under the cap next year.

Anyone else have different thoughts?

I think that Benning is working towards having a team structure that can be competitive every single year and that his focus is on the mid-term and not the short term. Trevor Linden seemed confident that they wouldn't run into cap issues and that the recent signings were within a very definite plan.

My guess is that they already know who they want to trade (probably based on who called for who at the deadline). I really wouldn't be surprised if players who are no longer in the long term plans, for whatever reasons, get traded (despite their NTCs) rather earlier than later for draft picks or young players. Benning did say that he would try and get some draft picks back.

That being said I also don't think that Miller will get traded this year but maybe the year after - it would put too much pressure on Lack as Markstrom still has to prove that he can be an effective backup - the waiver situation with Markstrom could be an issue though.

Anyway I expect quite a busy summer and a very different team at the start of next season.

[SabreFan1]

Hold onto him while Demko develops into the eventual franchise goalie. Use him with Lack as a 1a-1b situation, then let Miller retire a Canuck and bring in Demko to back-up Lack until he is ready to take over as the starting goaltender. Thatcher Demko is the future of the Canucks. Not Lack and not Markstrom.

As a fan of the team with the deepest prospect pool (Sabres), if there's one prospect that the Canucks have that I'm jealous of, and would absolutely love to have, it's Demko.

[D-Money]

Hold onto him while Demko develops into the eventual franchise goalie. Use him with Lack as a 1a-1b situation, then let Miller retire a Canuck and bring in Demko to back-up Lack until he is ready to take over as the starting goaltender. Thatcher Demko is the future of the Canucks. Not Lack and not Markstrom.

As a fan of the team with the deepest prospect pool (Sabres), if there's one prospect that the Canucks have that I'm jealous of, and would absolutely love to have, it's Demko.

Well, we'd be willing to package him with our 2015 first rounder, if you'd send Sam Reinhart back our way in return.

[SabreFan1]

Well, we'd be willing to package him with our 2015 first rounder, if you'd send Sam Reinhart back our way in return.

Murray is in love with Reinhart. As long as Murray is the GM in Buffalo, Reinhart will be a Sabre.