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Interesting article on the Sedin's Corsi Dominance in this series and our lack of depth


hockeydude474

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Really?

So when you hear a baseball announcer calling a hit a "seeing-eye single", do you assume that the batter tore the cover off the ball and none of the infielders had a chance to field it?

That's pretty much the opposite of how I (and the rest of the world) see it...

No need to get all uppity about it. I explained what I meant and did not say there was no chance I was wrong. Just that from what I had seen that was the way it was used. Google seeing eye shot hockey and see what comes up. It seems to apply to s perfect shot that finds its way to a difficult spot. I don't think that describes Bieksa's shot that went in because the goalie was not looking lol. Maybe that is just improper description being used by people for it I don't know.

Feel free to continue to be a dick about it if it makes you feel better though.

I would rather watch grass grow than watch baseball btw.

You get so worked up anytime anyone criticizes Bieksa especially me. You really need to realize that he is not as great as you think he is.

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Allot of that is perimeter play. Don't get me wrong , they have been beasts , and if they have the puck the flames don't , but they need someone who can find open areas while they cycle the puck or it's Offensively useless possession.

That's why I think Kassian would've made a difference. He will get to the net and take a position in front of the goalie and bang in at least one of 200 rebounds that Hiller gives up in each game.

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Allot of that is perimeter play. Don't get me wrong , they have been beasts , and if they have the puck the flames don't , but they need someone who can find open areas while they cycle the puck or it's Offensively useless possession.

Not trying to single out this particular post. I've just seen quite a few posters today making similar points (often without any caveats--unlike above) and wanted to respond in general.

I've come across several instances in various threads where people try to discount the value of the twins' "Corsi dominance" by pointing out that much of their possession is spent "cycling the puck" or on "perimeter play." That is very true.

However, it pays to remember that Corsi is not truly a measure of possession. It is a proxy measure of possession. Corsi is attempted shot differential.

I know most people are aware of this. But I'm not sure they ever really stop to think about what this means in the case of the Sedins.

The fact is that the twins have a remarkably positive differential in on-ice attempted shots (Corsi). And they accomplish this while actually spending a huge amount of their (possession) time not shooting the puck.

Let that sink in for a minute.

They cycle like madmen. They spend enormous amounts of time maintaining possession (often on the perimeter of the offensive zone) and delaying actual shot attempts until they can create high percentage scoring opportunities and get the defense to give them the looks they want.

And they still put-up far more shot attempts than their opposition.

If we actually had a true possession stat (like one actually measuring "time of possession"), it would be even more dramatically slanted in the twins' favour. This is because they play a style that probably burns more offensive "zonetime" per shot than most other players in the game.

The twins have been top-10 players in CF% (Corsi-for percentage) since the stat started being recorded (among the list of players with significant minutes played since 2007). That top-10 list reads like a "who's who" of some of the most dominant players of the past decade. And when you factor in the way the twins actually play the game, I'd wager that if there was an actual "time of possession" statistic available--instead of the proxy stat (Corsi)--Daniel and Henrik might very well sit at #1 and #2.

What the twins do out there (purely in terms of their Corsi numbers) is create more shot attempts, and consequently, more chances to score than almost everyone they are matched up against. Their "cycling" and "perimeter play" has the added bonus of keeping opponents mired in their own zone for huge stretches of the game where they are forced to expend energy (mental and physical) defending two of the most dominant possession players of the past decade.

And while it might not directly produce goals, an extended period of "offensively useless possession" where the other team is chasing the twins around their own zone will undoubtedly "soften up" that team's defense and wear them down (mentally and physically), which makes life a hell of a lot easier on the twins' teammates. Not to mention the fact that the best defense is not having to play defense at all. The Sedins' ability to dominate possession means that oppositions just don't get many chances to even enter our zone on many of the twins' shifts.

Watching Daniel and Henrik play the game for the past 14 seasons has been one of the true pleasures of being a hockey fan in Vancouver. I don't believe we'll truly appreciate just how good they are until long after they're gone. Hopefully this team can find a way to win them the Cup they so much deserve before they finally call it a career.

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Not trying to single out this particular post. I've just seen quite a few posters today making similar points (often without any caveats--unlike above) and wanted to respond in general.

I've come across several instances in various threads where people try to discount the value of the twins' "Corsi dominance" by pointing out that much of their possession is spent "cycling the puck" or on "perimeter play." That is very true.

However, it pays to remember that Corsi is not truly a measure of possession. It is a proxy measure of possession. Corsi is attempted shot differential.

I know most people are aware of this. But I'm not sure they ever really stop to think about what this means in the case of the Sedins.

The fact is that the twins have a remarkably positive differential in on-ice attempted shots (Corsi). And they accomplish this while actually spending a huge amount of their (possession) time not shooting the puck.

Let that sink in for a minute.

They cycle like madmen. They spend enormous amounts of time maintaining possession (often on the perimeter of the offensive zone) and delaying actual shot attempts until they can create high percentage scoring opportunities and get the defense to give them the looks they want.

And they still put-up far more shot attempts than their opposition.

If we actually had a true possession stat (like one actually measuring "time of possession"), it would be even more dramatically slanted in the twins' favour. This is because they play a style that probably burns more offensive "zonetime" per shot than most other players in the game.

The twins have been top-10 players in CF% (Corsi-for percentage) since the stat started being recorded (among the list of players with significant minutes played since 2007). That top-10 list reads like a "who's who" of some of the most dominant players of the past decade. And when you factor in the way the twins actually play the game, I'd wager that if there was an actual "time of possession" statistic available--instead of the proxy stat (Corsi)--Daniel and Henrik might very well sit at #1 and #2.

What the twins do out there (purely in terms of their Corsi numbers) is create more shot attempts, and consequently, more chances to score than almost everyone they are matched up against. Their "cycling" and "perimeter play" has the added bonus of keeping opponents mired in their own zone for huge stretches of the game where they are forced to expend energy (mental and physical) defending two of the most dominant possession players of the past decade.

And while it might not directly produce goals, an extended period of "offensively useless possession" where the other team is chasing the twins around their own zone will undoubtedly "soften up" that team's defense and wear them down (mentally and physically), which makes life a hell of a lot easier on the twins' teammates. Not to mention the fact that the best defense is not having to play defense at all. The Sedins' ability to dominate possession means that oppositions just don't get many chances to even enter our zone on many of the twins' shifts.

Watching Daniel and Henrik play the game for the past 14 seasons has been one of the true pleasures of being a hockey fan in Vancouver. I don't believe we'll truly appreciate just how good they are until long after they're gone. Hopefully this team can find a way to win them the Cup they so much deserve before they finally call it a career.

So........What your saying is they keep the puck away from the other team and get lots of chances to score but don't really provide offense. Isn't that like a Ryan Walter/Gary Valk type player? Then why do they get paid like #1 offense players on the #1 line? But........Aside from all this they are NOT our #1 penalty killers but they are our #1 PP guys. I think I would rather have a Getzlaff/Perry rather than the Twins no matter what their CORSI is. :lol:::D:P

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CORSI ISN'T GONNA WIN YOU THE CUP NOW IS IT?

I agree. This Corsi thing is like the old adage of " drive for show, putt for doe." You can possess the puck all you want but if you cannot put it in the back of the net then it means absolutely squat.

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Corsi isn't bogus, but it obviously doesn't tell the whole story, as others have said. All this tells me right now is that they have no finish. They may be playing well possession wise, but it means nothing if the Flames are doing a good job of blocking or they can't beat Hiller or their shots are weak or miss the net.

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The Sedins have been dominating the Flames all their career. They have troubles against the more shutdown types of defences, but right now in the NHL there aren't many of them left. Most defences are aggressive puck movers who aren't as physical and get caught defensively, and that's the type of defence that the Sedins thrive on.

They got handled against the tough, physical, shutdown defences of Boston and Los Angeles but ran riot against San Jose, Chicago, St. Louis etc. Those guys may have great defencemen in their lineups but aren't shutdown sort of guys who play physically primarily. Keith and Seabrook are good but their bottom-4 were victimized time and time again by the Sedins. Heck even the Ducks have a pretty mobile, young defence right now so I'd love to see what the twins can do to them in the playoffs (if we get there...).

These Flames without Giordano don't have a real answer for the Sedins. Sure, they haven't been scoring as much as they should be, but they produce offence and chances on every single shift. You take Hansen off that top line and put Vbrata up with the twins and you'll see instant goals. WD doesn't want to overload the top line and go all out yet, but if we need to during Game 6 I'm sure he will load up and go all-in.

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Did the article mention the most important stat? The one that's difficult to measure.

The one where Engelland tries to rip Hanks face off behind his net, and then Hank proceeds to apologize and then picks up Engelland's stick off the ice and hands it to him.

Haha, i was wondering if anyone else had seen that. When i first seen him pulling his stick over i figured he was gonna kick it away then i see him bending over and handing it to Engelland i was thinking WTF ? Does he forget this is a playoff series ? Even Engelland had a puzzled look on his face as to why someone was doing that

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No need to get all uppity about it. I explained what I meant and did not say there was no chance I was wrong. Just that from what I had seen that was the way it was used. Google seeing eye shot hockey and see what comes up. It seems to apply to s perfect shot that finds its way to a difficult spot. I don't think that describes Bieksa's shot that went in because the goalie was not looking lol. Maybe that is just improper description being used by people for it I don't know.

Feel free to continue to be a dick about it if it makes you feel better though.

I would rather watch grass grow than watch baseball btw.

You get so worked up anytime anyone criticizes Bieksa especially me. You really need to realize that he is not as great as you think he is.

I get worked up, because anytime someone says anything about Bieksa that is even remotely positive, you feel compelled to post something negative.

For instance, this debate about a seeing eye shot. I prefaced that phrase with this: The only Canuck I've seen try it occasionally is Bieksa, probably because he knows his slapper isn't going to beat an NHL goalie...

I would have thought that the part about the slapper would have made it clear. In fact I think it does. I just think that you (as usual) saw a chance to bash a player that you hate (despite your protestations to the contrary) and took it.

BTW, excellent use of straw with the "Bieksa isn't as great as you think he is". I challenge you to find a single post of mine where I call him a great player. Just one.

Finally, it doesn't surprise me that you don't watch baseball. It's a thinking man's game, after all.

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Over half of hockey fans know very little about the game. (and from what I've seen, you certainly fit into that category)

That certainly doesn't mean that the opinion expressed above is in any way accurate.

If you think Corsi actually means anything, you're at the top of that category. Vancouver and Calgary both finished 22nd and 21st in Corsi 5 on 5. It's irrelevant.

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If you think Corsi actually means anything, you're at the top of that category. Vancouver and Calgary both finished 22nd and 21st in Corsi 5 on 5. It's irrelevant.

I've been playing, coaching and refereeing for close to 50 years now.

You?

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