Horvat, 2nd line center!

[EdgarM]

 

Bonino's fine. He's a competent (albeit not fast) 2C who needs good W's to play with as he's not going to be dominant or the guy who "drives" that line. Baer, Bonino, Vrbata should be a good 2nd line next year.

 

He played with Vrbata. Is he not a good enough Winger? How did Vrbata fair with Bonino? Not sure which games you watched but Bonino was ineffective the last part of the season as well as the post season. Did you see how the 2nd PP unit led by Bonino did? They could not even set up in the O zone most of the time. Not very strong along the boards or a good checker either. He leaves a lot there to be desired thats for sure.

[Maniwaki Canuck]

The question is really who his linemates should be, not what number is attached to the line. If Baertschi and Vrbata are his wingers, clearly he's the 2C but suppose it's Baertschi and Hansen: not so clear then. Like just about everyone else, I'd like to see him play with Vrbata in a more offensive role, but the chemistry with Hansen and Kenins was pretty good, so any change may be incremental, for example switching out Kenins for Baertschi.

[GreyHatnDart]

Matt Beleskey would be a great signing for the Canucks...abrasive, gritty, 27 year old, goal scoring LW. $2.5M for Matt Beleskey? Unlikely to happen. Make a few moves to clear up cap space and he'd be worth going after -- 4 years @ $4.5M AAV. If I'm Jim Bean, I'd gladly move Burrows to make room for a player like Beleskey.

Oh for sure that's unlikely to happen for that money. I was simply saying our money could absolutely be best spent elsewhere besides Higgins.

Before those big Higgins fans rip on me, I've seen his fancy stats and yes they're good, but his role is diminishing due to age and upcoming prospects. I want youth on this team. Much as I hate to say it, Calgary is a fun team to watch. I'd rather have up and coming guys given a shot next season and be able to battle through their mistakes.

Higgins is a great PKer, but to me that's a little bit of a "who cares" kinda thing. A good system, hustle, and a good stick can make a good PKer. It's a skill that can be taught. Hope to see him gone next year.

[khay]

Matt Beleskey would be a great signing for the Canucks...abrasive, gritty, 27 year old, goal scoring LW. $2.5M for Matt Beleskey? Unlikely to happen. Make a few moves to clear up cap space and he'd be worth going after -- 4 years @ $4.5M AAV. If I'm Jim Bean, I'd gladly move Burrows to make room for a player like Beleskey.

I've wanted us to sign Beleskey for a long time. Tenacious player, perfect player for middle 6, big upgrade over Higgins and kind of like Burrows of 4-6 years ago. Not a big guy but plays big. He can fore check and go to the dirty areas to score.

It would be great if we can sign him for 3.5~4M and put him with Horvat or Bonino.

[Time Lord]

Yes, because he would be playing shutdown as well. To put it into perspective, Ryan Kesler had 47 points this regular season, is he not one of the best two-way centers in the game?

Conversely Nick Bonino gets 39 points and does not bring a two-way game, putting a damper on his line as evident during playoffs.

Are you kidding me? "Does not bring a two-way game"??? He's our best defensive forward, proven by stats and advanced stats (and the eye test, mind you). It doesn't matter if you think he isn't good defensively because he is.

Also he was at a 43 point pace - 39 in 75 games. That's why I mentioned the number 43 in the first place.

43 is 4 less than 47, which was the great two-way center's production. (Kesler)

Barring injuries:

If Horvat did that when he was 21, okay.

If Horvat did that when he was 27, not okay.

Age isn't relevant. I'm asking if it would be a success for the team, not for Horvat only.

IMO, If Horvat was slotted into the 2C spot and put up 43 points (while playing responsible defense, obviously) it would definitely be a success. But I can't see Horvat producing like that while facing other teams' top lines every game considering he was a fourth liner this season.

[bigbadcanucks]

Oh for sure that's unlikely to happen for that money. I was simply saying our money could absolutely be best spent elsewhere besides Higgins.

Before those big Higgins fans rip on me, I've seen his fancy stats and yes they're good, but his role is diminishing due to age and upcoming prospects. I want youth on this team. Much as I hate to say it, Calgary is a fun team to watch. I'd rather have up and coming guys given a shot next season and be able to battle through their mistakes.

Higgins is a great PKer, but to me that's a little bit of a "who cares" kinda thing. A good system, hustle, and a good stick can make a good PKer. It's a skill that can be taught. Hope to see him gone next year.

I'm in the same boat as you are when it comes to moving out vet forwards to make room for the youth, but my choice would be to move Burrows. Mainly because Burrows has a bigger cap hit at $4.5M AAV and IMO, most things Burrows can do, Higgins can do (except bringing the emotion and being somewhat effective with the Sedins, though the Sedins-Burrows couldn't finish if their lives depended on it vs. the Flames). If the Canucks could move both, all the better.

I think if there's anything to have been gained from watching the Flames this year is that it takes a lot of organizational b@ll$ to go with your youth. The reward could be high, though the risk would be equally high as there's no guarantee that the Canucks youth would be able to get the Canucks to the playoffs, which appears to be the team's MO.

I would also be all for seeing some of the vets moved out and replaced by vets from other teams who are proven playoff performers (e.g., Vrbata, Burrows and Higgins out; Sharp and Bickell in...not necessarily for each other for obvious reasons, but through a series of moves that would free up cap space so that guys like Sharp, Bickell, Williams and Beleskey can be targeted).

I think it's safe to assume that roster spots will be created for Baertschi and Clendening/Corrado. I hope Gaunce does enough this spring and during camp to earn a spot as well. Throw Virtanen into the mix, and we've got four youngsters that should change the personality of the team. There should a fair amount of change still coming.

[SvenBae]

Are you kidding me? "Does not bring a two-way game"??? He's our best defensive forward, proven by stats and advanced stats (and the eye test, mind you). It doesn't matter if you think he isn't good defensively because he is.

Also he was at a 43 point pace - 39 in 75 games. That's why I mentioned the number 43 in the first place.

43 is 4 less than 47, which was the great two-way center's production. (Kesler)

4 is a marginal difference.

Also Bonino's stats/advanced stats don't carry much weight when he plays with the two most defensively responsible wingers on the Canucks. How did he do in the playoffs, compared to Horvat?

[Time Lord]

4 is a marginal difference.

Also Bonino's stats/advanced stats don't carry much weight when he plays with the two most defensively responsible wingers on the Canucks. How did he do in the playoffs, compared to Horvat?

Maybe you should understand the point I was making, by perhaps reading my post?

I know 4 is a marginal difference...

Bonino was at a 43 point pace. Kesler got 47. How can you say one is great and the other sucks?

[SvenBae]

Maybe you should understand the point I was making, by perhaps reading my post?

I know 4 is a marginal difference...

Bonino was at a 43 point pace. Kesler got 47. How can you say one is great and the other sucks?

Playoff performance.

[Jiggs50]

Kesler is much better than Bonino. Bonino is a average 2nd line center imo. Pretty good 3rd line center though. That's exactly where he should be.

[Pickly]

Playoff performance.

Kesler has had two incredible playoff series performances (Nashville 2011, Winnipeg 2015) and a whole bunch of disappointing ones. Think back through all the years he was in Vancouver and how little impact he had in the playoffs besides the Nashville one where he was the best player bar none. It's fact.

I think Kesler is extremely overrated. He's a good hockey player but he isn't THAT good.

[Gross-Misconduct]

Horvat will never be a true #1 C like a tavares or toews. He will be a good 2nd line C though.

[BI3KSA-]

Horvat will never be a true #1 C like a tavares or toews. He will be a good 2nd line C though.

Can you tell the weather and read peoples minds too or?

[SvenBae]

Kesler has had two incredible playoff series performances (Nashville 2011, Winnipeg 2015) and a whole bunch of disappointing ones. Think back through all the years he was in Vancouver and how little impact he had in the playoffs besides the Nashville one where he was the best player bar none. It's fact.

I think Kesler is extremely overrated. He's a good hockey player but he isn't THAT good.

Pretty good when he went beast mode against San Jose in 2013.

[Jiggs50]

Kesler has had two incredible playoff series performances (Nashville 2011, Winnipeg 2015) and a whole bunch of disappointing ones. Think back through all the years he was in Vancouver and how little impact he had in the playoffs besides the Nashville one where he was the best player bar none. It's fact.

I think Kesler is extremely overrated. He's a good hockey player but he isn't THAT good.

He matches up against the top lines and goes head to head with the best. Kes was a beast. The one year he got decent wingers, he scored 40 goals. Even Toews and company have done that.

[Time Lord]

Kesler is much better than Bonino. Bonino is an average 2nd line center imo. Pretty good Elite 3rd line center though. That's exactly where he should be.

I see what you mean, you're right for the most part.

Pretty good when he went beast mode against San Jose in 2013.

He had 1 good period out of 14, IIRC

[SvenBae]

I see what you mean, you're right for the most part.

He had 1 good period out of 14, IIRC

One more period than anyone else on the Canucks that series.

The only series where he had no impact in recent memory, was the Kings series, I think.

[yes we can nucks]

You don't put all your eggs in one basket IMO. Having Vrbata on the 2nd line lets you spread out the offense and have two solid lines that are both a threat to score. Far harder to defend against. You still play him with the twins on the PP and can load up that line say trailing, late in the 3rd if needed. He also remains an option to move up if we run in to injuries.

Frankly Burrows or ideally (if he can earn his keep) Kassian, are more ideal team mates 5v5. With Vrbata, the twins have to do more, far more difficult board play. With Burr or Kass, they can concentrate more on making plays and let the third guy do more of the difficult board battles, puck retrieval and net front presence.

As for the thread subject, I don't think Horvat's quite ready for 2nd line duty but he's not far. Really we're looking at a 2A and 2B line next year anyway IMO

Sedin, Sedin, Kass/Burr

Baer, Bonino, Vrbata

Burr/Kass, Horvat, Hansen

Higgins/Kenins, ???, Dorsett

Vey

'All the eggs in one basket' all depends on who that 'bonafide second liner' I was talking about. If it's a guy like Beleskey (see below), we would have a sick second line with Horvat and Kassian. We would then afford the luxury of V with Sedins. IMO, the ship has sailed with Sedins and Burrows. Burrows was not good enough with them this season, and it's not going to get any better. Kassian is a question mark. Can he jump to the first line without proving anything this year? I would much rather go with what was proven ... Sedins and Vrbata. They didn't stick together this season because we didn't have enough balance on the first two lines. Hopefully that changes if we get the true second liner I referred to.

Matt Beleskey is coming off a solid 32 point season (22g 10a 8GWG) and would be a good finisher on the second line. He's UFA and will likely command 2.5m... Who's a redundant vet on our team making 2.5m and plays in the ozone like he's using the wrong handed stick? I'll give you a hint... The best part about him is his beard.

Beleskey would be a great fit on our second line. But as a UFA who scored over 20 goals, he's going to command way more than 2.5 mil. Wait till you see what Matthias wants after his 18 goals!