Defense: The Canucks Achilles Heel

[PhillipBlunt]

do people really think that benning, linden and company don't know what our defense needs?...getting the right pieces will take time.

give them time to correct the problems.

We know changes will happen, but these forums give us the opportunity to discuss, vent, bitch, and essentially go completely mental. And we're gonna use it!!!

[MikeGillis58]

We need sign to Ehrhoff or some other offensive defencemen.

[Martin Frk]

We need sign to Ehrhoff or some other offensive defencemen.

[greetingsfrombrazil]

The defensive group in Vancouver currently takes a huge part of our cap. Edler at $5M, Hammer and Juice at around $4.5M each, Tanev at $4.45M, Sbisa at $3.6M. That's roughly $22M committed to a group that couldn't hold the Flames offense and agressive forecheck in a 7 game series.

I think there's no way Benning goes into the season with this group, but I also am not a fan of how he's handling it.

Edler and Tanev played a great regular season and could hold the Flames top line for most of the series. They are fine as our #1 defensive pair.

The 2nd and 3rd pair that were a disaster. Hammer is getting old, is not as stable and secure as he once was, and that's not long ago. Heck, he played at the Olympics last year over Subban. I can see him rebounding next year, if not, he's still a good trade bait at the deadline.

I'm actually fine with Bieksa as our 6th, 3rd pair right handed dman until next year. If he won't waive, let his contract run out and resign him for very cheap in 2016, let Corrado and Clendening develop and learn from him. He's still a physical, tough presence in front of the net and in the corners. But he's gotta take a pay cut, he's not worth $4.5M anymore.

Now, to the point where I wanted to get at the start of this post: Sbisa and Weber. I don't think they're NHL caliber defenseman. Sbisa was supposed to be a physical presence on the back end, instead he's a turnover machine who doesn't really hit or punishes opposing players when entering our zone. He's not an imposing presence, who players think: "that Sbisa guy is a pain to play against". I don't he's worth $3.6M at all. Weber is a power play specialist, as said by other users, who had a great shot, and that's it. He doesn't play good defense, doesn't have the size to shut down the big, strong forwards of the west. He can't control the presence in front of his own net or read the opposition's play and breakout.

Benning already resigned Sbisa and plans on doing the same with Weber, I can't agree with that. I'm not opposed to moving Hamhuis and Bieksa, but I am to keeping Sbisa and Weber. We're not winning with them. Instead, we should use those spots on free agents or even prospects like Frankie and Pedan. In the end, he's the GM and knows hockey infinitely more than I do, so as a fan I will trust his décisions.

[komodo1970]

Don't worry, Sbisa got a nice highly overpaid 3 year contract. Our defensive woes will be here for a long time.

It's hard to figure out why JB agreed to this contract; That's for sure.

Dorsett has been a heart and soul player since he put on the Canuck Jersey. 7 goals, 18 assists, 25 points, is a +4 and had 175 pims. He's always the first player to defend his teammates and is a tireless combatant. This earns him a 4 yr 2.6 million dollar contract. In my mind, worth every penny.

Sbisa, on the other hand, needs to grow into his contract. 3 goals, 8 assists, is a -8, and had 46 pims. He shows up for the odd game, makes a few big hits and drops the gloves when one of his hits produces a response but looks completely out of his element when he does so. I can't remember one instance of him defending a teammate or helping out his goalie when needed. Apparently, potential can make for a big payday. At an average salary of 3.6 million, Sbisa and his agent must've been jumping over the table to get the deal signed before Benning could rethink it. I hate seeing potential being paid for. This is how salaries get out of control. Anyone remember Jeff Finger?

[Martin Frk]

It's hard to figure out why JB agreed to this contract; That's for sure.

Dorsett has been a heart and soul player since he put on the Canuck Jersey. 7 goals, 18 assists, 25 points, is a +4 and had 175 pims. He's always the first player to defend his teammates and is a tireless combatant. This earns him a 4 yr 2.6 million dollar contract. In my mind, worth every penny.

Sbisa, on the other hand, needs to grow into his contract. 3 goals, 8 assists, is a -8, and had 46 pims. He shows up for the odd game, makes a few big hits and drops the gloves when one of his hits produces a response but looks completely out of his element when he does so. I can't remember one instance of him defending a teammate or helping out his goalie when needed. Apparently, potential can make for a big payday. At an average salary of 3.6 million, Sbisa and his agent must've been jumping over the table to get the deal signed before Benning could rethink it. I hate seeing potential being paid for. This is how salaries get out of control. Anyone remember Jeff Finger?

I completley agree with you. I think they may have jumped the gun with the Sbisa contract, but you are bang on when it comes to the Dorsett contract. He would have gotten more than 3 million per on the open market.

It should be an interesting off-season for JB.

The back end needs improvement, plus like previously mentioned it is taking up a boat load of cap for this hockey club.

Moves are on the way.

[aliboy]

I bring back Hoff in a minute, plus we need one big tough, mean d-man.

[D-Money]

Short of tanking, the only way we're going to find bonafide top-pairing D-men is to give the young guys a chance, and hope at least one of them pans out into something special.

Of the top-18 scoring D-men this past season, 13 of them were not 1st rounders. But each of them were given the opportunity to succeed by an NHL team, and reached levels no one saw coming:

P.K. Subban - 43rd overall

Dennis Wideman - 241st

Roman Josi - 38th

Kris Letang - 62nd

Tyson Barrie - 64th

Mark Streit - 262nd

Keith Yandle - 105th

Andrei Markov - 162nd

Justin Faulk - 37th

Mark Giordano - undrafted

Dustin Byfuglien - 245th

Shea Weber - 49th

Duncan Keith - 54th

Right now guys like Corrado, Glendening, Hutton, Pedan, Subban, Tryamkin, McNally, etc. seem like longshots to become top-pairing D-men...but so did all the guys on the list above at the same age. If we're lucky, maybe 1 of them will be the answer - but the only way to find out is to let them develop, and give them a real shot at the bigs when they have proven themselves in the AHL.

[D-Money]

I would also target one of New Jersey's young D-men - Severson, Larsson, Merrill, Gelinas. Rumour is they will trade one for a young scorer.

Larsson would be ideal, but probably too expensive. I hope Benning explores that fully though.

Maybe Shinkaruk for Merrill?

[Maniwaki Canuck]

No question that we have a boatload of issues to resolve on defense. Like everyone says, we lack a puck mover, pp quarterback, and nasty crease-clearer. And there clearly are issues trying to put together complementary pairings, in part as a result of missing pieces. For me, Sbisa's salary is a minor problem compared to these issues. It may be too high, but realistically 4 mil is pretty much the floor for a top 4 defenseman these days, so his salary projects him to be close to that level but not to arrive until 2 years from now. That doesn't seem so far off to me. if JB really does re-sign Weber, with Clendenning on the club next year and Corrado waiting in the wings, Bieksa's days have to be winding down here. Problem is we have 4 bottom-pairing right D. Bringing in someone like Franson looks good on paper but I don't see it happening with what JB has been doing.

[aGENT]

Not sure why Benning is so set on re-signing Weber.

The only thing I can think of/hope for is that it's because he's an RFA with value. A guy who can be moved or allow someone else to move and get assets back.

Realistically, there's almost no chance all of Bieksa, Weber, Corrado, Clendening are with the cub in the fall. Weber/Clendening and their basically identical/redundant role especially.

[Qwags]

I think we can say goodbye to Bieksa after next season, unless he somehow gets 50-60 pints.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

Our defence can be improved and it should be addressed but this teams real problem in the playoffs isn't D. It's we don't have the players that work to score those garbage goals. Our top offensive players rely completely on their skill to score. In the post season, teams are too they, pre watch and strategize how to take that time away.

Look at this playoffs for example. The caps leading point player is Joel ward. This guy goes to the dirty area's and out works the other team to get rewarded. Cap who had a unreal PP unit this year have gone cold turkey.

Look at Perry's OT goal last night. The guy was in the paint outworking his opponent for that rebound. You'd never see the Sedin's make that play. Beleskey has five goals in his last 5 games all from battles in front, wether it was a tip in or a greasy rebound.. In our cup run, it was Burrows and Kesler that were the key guys. Even Torres and Lappy came up big. Now because of trades and age added in, we don't have those types of hard nose players. Horvat was the one player that was showing that effort, and driving the puck to the front of the net.

Vbrata would prefer to shoot the puck from the outside hash marks rather than drive the puck to the next.

The twins would prefer to cycle the puck in the corner rather than drive the net.

Higgins only goal was a garbage rebound in front of the next. After that he disappeared

When the D would shoot from the point, Hiller was having an easy time tracking the puck, because no bodies were in front of the net.

There's a trend here, in playoffs, you have to want to win. The want has to be great enough that your willing to pay the price and out work the other team, in front of the net. Your going to get slashed, your going to get beat up, but unless your willing to go to war, your not going to win.

[aGENT]

Our defence can be improved and it should be addressed but this teams real problem in the playoffs isn't D. It's we don't have the players that work to score those garbage goals. Our top offensive players rely completely on their skill to score. In the post season, teams are too they, pre watch and strategize how to take that time away.

Look at this playoffs for example. The caps leading point player is Joel ward. This guy goes to the dirty area's and out works the other team to get rewarded. Cap who had a unreal PP unit this year have gone cold turkey.

Look at Perry's OT goal last night. The guy was in the paint outworking his opponent for that rebound. You'd never see the Sedin's make that play. Beleskey has five goals in his last 5 games all from battles in front, wether it was a tip in or a greasy rebound.. In our cup run, it was Burrows and Kesler that were the key guys. Even Torres and Lappy came up big. Now because of trades and age added in, we don't have those types of hard nose players. Horvat was the one player that was showing that effort, and driving the puck to the front of the net.

Vbrata would prefer to shoot the puck from the outside hash marks rather than drive the puck to the next.

The twins would prefer to cycle the puck in the corner rather than drive the net.

Higgins only goal was a garbage rebound in front of the next. After that he disappeared

When the D would shoot from the point, Hiller was having an easy time tracking the puck, because no bodies were in front of the net.

There's a trend here, in playoffs, you have to want to win. The want has to be great enough that your willing to pay the price and out work the other team, in front of the net. Your going to get slashed, your going to get beat up, but unless your willing to go to war, your not going to win.

Sure, I'll play.

IMO, we're already largely addressing that with guys like Bo, Kenins, Kassian, Virtanen, McCann, Cassels etc, etc coming in. It's not going to be fixed tomorrow but it's already largely been addressed IMO and whatever's deemed missing/sub par can be tweaked along the way. The cavalry is already coming in that regard IMO.

Our present NHL D and prospect D has a severe lack of top 4 caliber guys. Also not having a top 4 offensive D to transition out of our zone, feed our skilled forwards, be their own threat in the offensive zone etc makes for a much easier job defending against our skilled forwards whose game is not crashing and banging. It's by far the team's most pressing need.

[TOMapleLaughs]

Used to be our biggest strength. Now it definitely isn't. However I think Benning realizes this and will take steps needed. Hopefully some franchise-impacting steps, because tinkering around won't accomplish much. Considering the rebuild is on and it has a fan mandate, it would be nice to actually build a winner.

[D-Money]

I think Benning was trying to address this at last year's draft, by going hard after #1 overall. Ekblad would have been nice, but the price must have just been too high.

Maybe this year he'll trade up?

[Royals00]

If Canucks want to win a cup they NEED a top Dman.

2014- LA: Doughty

2013- Chicago: Keith

2012- LA: Doughty

2011- Boston: Chara

2010- Chicago: Keith

Anyone else notice that the last 5 cup champs are all defense first teams? Not alot of offensive power in all of those teams except for maybe Chicago.

[erkayloomeh]

Much was made about the failure of the forwards to score or the goalies failure to prevent goals but the real reason the team lost the series was because the defense was not one that was playoff worthy.

The whole lot of them were victimized by Calgary's forecheck which truly wasn't that awe inspiring if you looked at it subjectively.

The defense failed to consistently do anything right. They were subpar in clearing the crease, making a first pass out of the zone, and were truly average in the neutral zone.

They lacked the speed to initiate rushes, the skill to quarterback powerplays, and most importantly, the size and ferocity to deter a very basic and undisciplined forecheck.

Not one defenseman elevated their game to address Calgary. Not Edler, Tanev, or Hamhuis. They were pedestrian and stood meekly in the face of the pressure Calgary exerted.

Bieksa, Weber, and Sbisa had no place being in the post season with the complete lack of urgency they demonstrated. They were embarrassing.

This team needs a true no.1 alpha type defenseman that will anchor the blueline.

My question is where will that player come from. Will they be drafted? Will they come via trade?

Without this necessary presence, first round exits will continue to be the norm, if that.

I would have absolutely no problem trading elder. If he would waive for Detroit maybe we would get there first??. They are sitting around 18 I believe. Could we trade 18 and our 22nd overall and move up to say 9 and take Zach werenski.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

Sure, I'll play.

IMO, we're already largely addressing that with guys like Bo, Kenins, Kassian, Virtanen, McCann, Cassels etc, etc coming in. It's not going to be fixed tomorrow but it's already largely been addressed IMO and whatever's deemed missing/sub par can be tweaked along the way. The cavalry is already coming in that regard IMO.

Our present NHL D and prospect D has a severe lack of top 4 caliber guys. Also not having a top 4 offensive D to transition out of our zone, feed our skilled forwards, be their own threat in the offensive zone etc makes for a much easier job defending against our skilled forwards whose game is not crashing and banging. It's by far the team's most pressing need.

I agree that cavalry is on the way. Bo Horvat was the one bright and shining spot in that playoff series. That kid is something else. Kassian would have also made a huge impact in that series and if Cassels can translate what he's currently doing at the NHL level this team is going to be a hard team to play against.

Really I was just pointing out that when playoffs start, the lack of scoring starts. Players who completely rely on skill are getting shut down way to easy. Teams that rely on skill like, PIT's, VAN, WSH and guys like Nash and Stamkos are seeing the effects of having their time removed. Teams are much better at forecasting the play. Kings and Bruins have been so successful in the post season not because they rely on skill but because they rely on hard work and slowly chipping away. Finishing your check, a constant forecheck and in front of the net battles, it wears down the other teams in a 7 game series.

This team is light on the back end. Hopefully we find a gem with one of the players we have in the system already.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

If Canucks want to win a cup they NEED a top Dman.

2014- LA: Doughty

2013- Chicago: Keith

2012- LA: Doughty

2011- Boston: Chara

2010- Chicago: Keith

Anyone else notice that the last 5 cup champs are all defense first teams? Not alot of offensive power in all of those teams except for maybe Chicago.

I don't know if what you pointed out helped your case that much or if it just supported the idea that we need at least one of Doughty, Keith, or Chara.

It's ok to point of similarities (all three teams had top 5 draft picks or all three teams had a strong two way center) but it's important not to state something as a fact unless is supported in all instances.

For example, there are plenty of other teams that have top d men and are still without a cup, MTL (subban), STL (shattenkirk), MIN (suter) NSH (Weber), OTT (Karlson).

Stating that in order to win a cup a team NEEDS a top D is about as helpful as stating that a team needs a number one goalie.