Turkey continues to deny Armenian genocide

[grandmaster]

It disgusts me that 100 years after what happened, they still have not admitted to the genocide of killing 1.5 million Armenians

http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/24/europe/armenia-turkey-massacre/index.html

What if the Germans denied their genocide of the Jews? It blows me away on how Turkey can get away with this.

[Violator]

sad to say but its smart to deny it.Costs you no money if you say it didn't happen

[Offensive Threat]

Hey if the Japanese can try to rewrite history and say the Rape of Nanking (Also known as the Nanking Massacre) never happened then all history is open to revision. Doesnt mean the rest of the world has to put up with it.

So the Ottomans killed 1.5 million Armenians and a large number of Greek and Assyrian minorities in a spree of ethnic cleansing in and around 1915. The Ottoman empire did all this. Not just Turkey. The empire at the time included what became Syria,Lebanon, Iraq, Palestine, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen etc. Should they be apologizing as well? These states were partitioned off well after the genocide had been conducted. Does that implicate them in the crime? Yes. To what extent? Who knows.

[Salmonberries]

Hey if the Japanese can try to rewrite history and say the Rape of Nanking (Also known as the Nanking Massacre) never happened then all history is open to revision. Doesnt mean the rest of the world has to put up with it.

So the Ottomans killed 1.5 million Armenians and a large number of Greek and Assyrian minorities in a spree of ethnic cleansing in and around 1915. The Ottoman empire did all this. Not just Turkey. The empire at the time included what became Syria,Lebanon, Iraq, Palestine, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen etc. Should they be apologizing as well? These states were partitioned off well after the genocide had been conducted. Does that implicate them in the crime? Yes. To what extent? Who knows.

Part of the genocide took place in Iranian Azerbaijan as well. As far as other groups that participated in the killing besides the Turks, the Kurds in particular played a central role, particularly in the Assyrian genocide.

[etsen3]

I didn't know about this. Thanks for the heads up OP, will research more later.

[nucklehead]

This man Gwynne Dyer is one of the few journalists I respect. He does his homework and knows what he's talking about. I always learn things from him not found in most main stream media productions.

Read and learn.

http://www.straight.com/news/429361/gwynne-dyer-revisiting-armenian-genocide

What happened here can in no way be compared to the Nazi extermination plan. It was genocide through panic, incompetence, and deliberate neglect, but it cannot be compared to what happened to the European Jews. Also the figure of 1.5 million is most likely way out of line with acutal numbers.

It is with great reluctance that I write about the Armenian genocide, as I know from experience that what I say will infuriate both sides.

But it is the 100th anniversary of the catastrophe this month, and Pope Francis has just declared that the mass killing of Armenian citizens of the Ottoman empire in 1915 was indeed a genocide. Turkey, predictably, has responded by withdrawing its ambassador from the Vatican.

Well, surprise! We’ve been listening to this argument for several generations now, and it rarely gets much further than “Yes, you did!” “No, I didn’t!” Unfortunately, I know a lot more about it than that.

Ages ago, when I was a history graduate student doing research about Turkey’s role in the First World War, I got into the Turkish General Staff archives in Ankara and found the actual telegrams (written in the old riqa script) that went back and forth between Istanbul and eastern Anatolia in the spring of 1915.

Later on I saw the British and Russian documents on their plans for joint action with Armenian revolutionaries in the spring of 1915, so I also know the context in which the Turks and Armenians were acting. And I can say with some confidence that both sides are wrong.

There was an Armenian genocide. Of course there was. When up to 800,000 people from a single ethnic and religious community die from violence, hunger, or exposure in a short time, and they are under guard by armed men from a different ethnicity and religion at the time, it’s an open-and-shut case. (Today’s Armenians say 1.5 million died in 1915, but that’s too high. It could be as few as half a million, but 800,000 is plausible.)

On the other hand, the Armenians desperately want their tragedy to be seen in the same light as the Nazi attempt to exterminate the European Jews, and won’t settle for anything less. But what happened to the Armenians was not pre-planned by the Turkish government, and there was provocation from the Armenian side. That doesn’t remotely begin to justify what happened, but it does put the Turks in a somewhat different light.

A group of junior officers called the Young Turks seized control of the Ottoman empire in 1908, and their leader, Enver Pasha, foolishly took the empire into the First World War at Germany’s side in November 1914. He then led a Turkish army east to attack Russia, which was allied to Britain and France.

That army was destroyed in the deep snow around Kars—only 10 percent of it got back to base—and the Turks panicked. The Russians didn’t follow right away—poor generalship—but the Turks had almost nothing left to stop them if they did. The Turks scrambled to put some kind of defensive line together, but behind them in eastern Anatolia were Christian Armenians who had been agitating for independence from the empire for decades.

Various revolutionary Armenian groups had been in touch with Moscow, offering to stage uprisings behind the Turkish army when Russian troops arrived in Anatolia. Learning that the Turks had retreated in disarray, some groups assumed the Russians were on their way and jumped the gun.

Similarly the Armenian revolutionary groups further south, near the Mediterranean coast, were in contact with the British command in Egypt, and had promised an uprising to coincide with planned British landings on the Turkish south coast near Adana. Quite late in the day the British switched their planned invasion much further west to Gallipoli, but once again some of the Armenian revolutionaries didn’t get the message in time and rebelled anyway.

Enver Pasha and his colleagues in Istanbul simply panicked. If the Russians broke through in eastern Anatolia, all the Arab parts of the empire would be cut off. So they ordered the deportation of all the Armenians in the east to Syria—over the mountains, in winter, on foot. (There was no railway yet.)

And since there were no regular troops to spare, it was mostly Kurdish irregulars who guarded the Armenians on the way south.

The Kurds shared eastern Anatolia with the Armenians, but the neighbours had never been friendly. So many of the Kurdish escorts assumed they had free license to rape, steal, and kill, and between that, the lack of food, and the weather, up to half the deportees died. To the extent that the Turkish government knew about it, it did nothing to stop it.

More Armenians died in the sweltering, disease-ridden camps they were confined in once they arrived in Syria. It was genocide through panic, incompetence, and deliberate neglect, but it cannot be compared to what happened to the European Jews. Indeed the large Armenian community in Istanbul, far from the military operations in eastern Anatolia, survived the war virtually unharmed.

If the Turks had only had the sense to admit what really happened 50 or 75 years ago, there would be no controversy now. The only duty of the current generation is to acknowledge the past, not to fix it (as if they could).

Instead there has been 100 years of blank denial, which is why the issue is still on the international agenda. It will stay there until the Turks finally come to terms with their past.

[taxi]

This man Gwynne Dyer is one of the few journalists I respect. He does his homework and knows what he's talking about. I always learn things from him not found in most main stream media productions.

Read and learn.

http://www.straight.com/news/429361/gwynne-dyer-revisiting-armenian-genocide

What happened here can in no way be compared to the Nazi extermination plan. It was genocide through panic, incompetence, and deliberate neglect, but it cannot be compared to what happened to the European Jews. Also the figure of 1.5 million is most likely way out of line with acutal numbers.

I disagree. Christian minorities were deliberately targeted in order to redefine the demographics of the region.

[drummer4now]

Obviously what Turkey did or should I say the former Ottoman Empire did was wrong..

But the time of this is fishy.. Why now are countries beginning to acknowledge it?

IMO it seems like some governments or politicians are taking advantage of this heinous crime for political advantage/sabotage.

I know that Turkish PM Erdogan is very unpopular in Europe right now because of some remarks/rants he has made in the past criticizing Europe.

Just seems odd..

[RUPERTKBD]

Obviously what Turkey did or should I say the former Ottoman Empire did was wrong..

But the time of this is fishy..Why now are countries beginning to acknowledge it?

IMO it seems like some governments or politicians are taking advantage of this heinous crime for political advantage/sabotage.

I know that Turkish PM Erdogan is very unpopular in Europe right now because of some remarks/rants he has made in the past criticizing Europe.

Just seems odd..

They've been doing so for quite some time.

It's getting attention right now, because it's the 100th anniversary.

[grandmaster]

Denial of this genocide is what makes things worse. Animosity grows.

Scholars around the world have proven that this did happen.

Canada has recognized it. The U.S. refuses due to a risk of them losing their strategic military base in Turkey.

[RUPERTKBD]

Denial of this genocide is what makes things worse. Animosity grows.

Scholars around the world have proven that this did happen.

Canada has recognized it. The U.S. refuses due to a risk of them losing their strategic military base in Turkey.

John Oliver had something to say about this last night.

At the moment Obama refuses to term it a "genocide", (for the reasons you noted) but he used that exact term in 2007, when he was Senator Obama...

[Bob.Loblaw]

John Oliver had something to say about this last night.

At the moment Obama refuses to term it a "genocide", (for the reasons you noted) but he used that exact term in 2007, when he was Senator Obama...

Oh man he's been called out by the Armenian American population for this. Apparently it was an election promise and yet he's probably going to exit office having said nothing.

[Salmonberries]

I disagree. Christian minorities were deliberately targeted in order to redefine the demographics of the region.

There is absolutely no question. Gwynn Dyer is repeating the Turkish government party line, and it's quite disgusting.

[Qwags]

It disgusts me that 100 years after what happened, they still have not admitted to the genocide of killing 1.5 million Armenians

http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/24/europe/armenia-turkey-massacre/index.html

What if the Germans denied their genocide of the Jews? It blows me away on how Turkey can get away with this.

The thing is, Germany would never get away with it, considering how ingrained in the public consciousness the Holocaust is.

[Salmonberries]

The Islamic Genocide of Christians: Past and Present

http://www.aina.org/news/20150427151603.htm

German President Recognizes Assyrian, Greek, Armenian Genocide

http://www.aina.org/news/20150423195152.htm

The Assyrian Genocide: Turkey's Wholesale Slaughter and Extermination

http://www.aina.org/news/20150423030510.htm

[Special Ed]

The Russians raped and murdered 2 million girls aged 8-80 on their way to Berlin. Russian women included. Not only does Russia keep this under wraps but they celebrate it as a heroic victory.

[Green Building]

It was definitively a genocide. No question.

Anyone who would like to read a narrative based on facts collected before and during the genocide should really read Armenian Golgotha. It's a tough read, for obvious reasons, but tells quite a story.

I've been meaning to pick it up again, but it isn't happy reading.

The story goes that Grigoris Balakian was amongst the first of the Armenian community arrested by the Turks on Red Sunday. He was a church bishop, and as such people began to confide in him their stories. He began to take notes of these accounts, eventually escaped his captors, evaded recapture by using his education in language and so forth to live by aliases, and eventually survived the war to retire in what is speculated to be Belgium, if I remember correctly. He died without ever telling, via writing, his story.

A generation later his nephew found all of his great-uncles notes in an attic and began to read them. With the help of a translator they wrote the book Armenian Golgotha, an account of the first known genocide on Earth.

The graphic descriptions of how people were rounded up and disposed of via deportation, if lucky, or mass murder, is very surreal. There were several stages to how Armenians were collected, and it was all very calculated.

I find it astounding that Turkey can deny this to this day while claiming they were at war, which they were mind you, but not with Armenians. Historians say that over 7-8 years the Armenian population was reduced to 400,000 from 2.1 million. Or %80 of the population had been killed.

Anna Maria Tremonti had Balakians nephew on The Current as a guest around 5 or 6 years ago and it was one of the most captivating radio interviews I'd ever heard. It certainly led me to want to read his great-uncles memoirs.

The thing is, Germany would never get away with it, considering how ingrained in the public consciousness the Holocaust is.

I hesitate to use the word interesting, but the interesting thing to consider about your valid point is how much of a role technology had to play in Germany never getting away with it, but Turkey doing just that.

A quick Google search will reveal endless images of portraying Nazi death camps. While some images surrounding the Armenian genocide can be found, the fact that technology is that of 1915 renders the images "less shocking" to people who have HD death, violence, and gore, all around them.

I'm not suggesting this is the only reason, just that I'm wondering how much of a contributing factor it may be.

[Salmonberries]

"We have made a clean sweep of the Armenians and Assyrians of Azerbaijan" -- Those were the words of Djevdet Bey, the governor of Van Province in Ottoman Turkey, who on April 24, 1915 lead 20,000 Turkish soldiers and 10,000 Kurdish irregulars in the opening act of the genocide of Assyrians, Armenians and Greeks.

Between 1915 and 1918 750,000 Assyrians (75%), 500,000 Greeks and 1.5 million Armenians were killed by Ottoman Turks and Kurds in a genocide that aimed at and nearly succeeded in destroying the Christian communities in the Ottoman Empire.

http://www.aina.org/news/20150424031325.htm

[Salmonberries]

THE BLIGHT OF ASIA
An Account of the Systematic Extermination of Christian Populations by Mohammedans
and of the Culpability of Certain Great Powers; with the True Story of the Burning of Smyrna

By

GEORGE HORTON

For Thirty Years Consul and Consul-General of the United States in the Near East

“What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.” -- REVELATIONS, I:11

THE MARTYRED CITY

Glory and Queen of Island Sea
Was Smyrna, the beautiful city,
And fairest pearl of the Orient she—
O Smyrna the beautiful city!
Heiress of countless storied ages,
Mother of poets, saints and sages,
Was Smyrna, the beautiful city!
One of the ancient, glorious Seven
Was Smyrna, the sacred city,
Whose candles all were alight in Heaven—
O Smyrna the sacred city!
One of the Seven hopes and desires,
One of the seven Holy Fires
Was Smyrna, the Sacred City.
And six fared out in the long ago-
O Smyrna, the Christian city!
But hers shone on with a constant glow—
O Smyrna, the Christian city!
The others died down and passed away,
But hers gleamed on until yesterday—
O Smyrna, the Christian city!
Silent and dead are churchbell ringers
Of Smyrna, the Christian city,
The music silent and dead the singers
Of Smyrna, the happy city;
And her maidens, pearls of the Island seas
Are gone from the marble palaces
Of Smyrna, enchanting city!
She is dead and rots by the Orient’s gate,
Does Smyrna, the murdered city,
Her artisans gone, her streets desolate—
O Smyrna, the murdered city!
Her children made orphans, widows her wives
While under her stones the foul rat thrives—
O Smyrna, the murdered city!
They crowned with a halo her bishop there,
In Smyrna, the martyred city,
Though dabbled with blood was his long white hair—
O Smyrna, the martyred city!
So she kept the faith in Christendom
From Polycarp to St. Chrysostom,*
Did Smyrna, the glorified city!

*Martyred at Smyrna, September 1922.

http://www.aina.org/books/tboa/tboa.htm

[drummer4now]

"We have made a clean sweep of the Armenians and Assyrians of Azerbaijan" -- Those were the words of Djevdet Bey, the governor of Van Province in Ottoman Turkey, who on April 24, 1915 lead 20,000 Turkish soldiers and 10,000 Kurdish irregulars in the opening act of the genocide of Assyrians, Armenians and Greeks.

Between 1915 and 1918 750,000 Assyrians (75%), 500,000 Greeks and 1.5 million Armenians were killed by Ottoman Turks and Kurds in a genocide that aimed at and nearly succeeded in destroying the Christian communities in the Ottoman Empire.

http://www.aina.org/news/20150424031325.htm

Good job at spread awareness..

One interesting but ironic fact I found is the modern state of Turkey denies the genocide.. even though the ottoman empire acknowledged it to an extent..

The verdict of the Turkish courts-martial of 1919–20 acknowledged the Armenian Genocide (then known as "war crimes"), and sentenced the perpetrators to death. However, in 1921, during the resurgence of the Turkish National Movement, amnesty was given to those found guilty. Thereafter, the successive Turkish government, under Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, adopted a policy of denial.^[74][75][76]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide_recognition

I also find it ironic that Syria now acknowledges the Armenian genocide considering what is going on in the country right now..

That's one aspect of my original post I forgot to mention.. That there's a trend according to that Wikipedia link where some countries are acknowledging it for all the wrong reasons possibly because they're against Turkey.