nickels555 Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 Good post... I don't think it's really accurate giving Benning all this credit for signing Vrbata. Benning et al were all in on Jerome Iginla before he chose Colo (heard we offered 6 mil). Vrbata was signed as a consolation, as the only remaining RW to play with the Sedins. Had we landed Iginla, I doubt the reviews would be as favorable. i think JB's greatest accomplishment has been rebuilding the depth of the organization. Individually, all moves may not look great, but without the depth...there is no way we'd have gained 101 pts and a playoff berth. Not to mention his contribution to the 180 degree "about face" of the image of the Canuck brand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonMexico Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 Only idiots have Benning on their short leash and think that the retool can be fixed in just one summer... People need to just sit back and shut up. Grab a beer and watch the draft or something. I dunno… Try disc golf! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred65 Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 The question is basically will this team .... with maybe a couple 2-3 new players go any further forward in the play-offs come next Spring and are the fan content with that and willing to drop a large chunk of change to watch it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riffraff Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 When Benning was hired last summer there was a lot of goodwill. He benefited from the "anyone but Gillis movement" and from the halo effect of being hired by the very popular Trevor Linden. The team defined success as making the playoffs, so TL and JB claimed success in today's news conference (April 29). But I think Benning will get a much more critical appraisal this summer. First, I am not convinced that this year's performance earns Benning a lot of credit. Last summer I felt that my own expectations were about average -- I expected the Canucks to contend for the playoffs, probably make it, and then lose in the first round. That is what happened and is what a lot of people expected to happen. I would say this season was neither a failure nor a big success relative to expectations. I think the big reason for the improvement over last year was due to having a real coach (WD) after last year's train wreck with Tortorella. As a result we got a big bounce-back from the Sedins, Edler, Burrows, etc. Statistically, that is the biggest difference. New players helped, particularly Vrbata, Horvat, and Kenins. Vrbata was a Benning pick-up; Horvat and Kenins were from the Gillis era. Lack also played very well and was also a holdover. Benning's other big moves that affected this year's performance were the Miller pick-up, the Kesler trade, and the trade of Garrison for a second round pick (which turned into Linden Vey). The jury is out on Miller. He has a high cap hit and his save percentage was below the NHL average and well below Lack's. And let's face it, the final playoff game was a big disappointment. Yes Miller was still getting over his injury, but that was an opportunity for the big investment in Miller to pay off, and it didn't. There is room for disagreement but it is at least possible that that the Canucks would have been better off with Lack and Markstrom. That is my opinion. The Kesler trade brought in Bonino, Sbisa, and a low first round pick (McCann). Kesler had to go and Benning did not have many options. But I do not know who else Benning might have got from Anaheim instead of Bonino and Sbisa. Both were very disappointing in the playoffs and were up and down in the regular season. And Benning overpaid to re-sign Sbisa. I hated trading Garrison for a second round pick in order to create cap room. Garrison had a great year in Tampa and he was a great guy and a local guy, and asking him to waive his NTC still does not feel right. And the second round pick was traded for Linden Vey, who has to be viewed as a disappointment so far. We think the draft was good but of course will not know for a while yet. The big issue is whether Virtanen turns out to be better than Nylander, Ehlers, and Ritchie, who were all picked later. The jury is out. I sense some unease about Benning. He paid a lot for Sbisa, Dorsett, Miller, Tanev, and even Vrabta (who I agree turned out to be good value). He did nothing at the trade deadline to pick up draft picks. He has said he plans to re-sign Weber, which has a lot of people scratching their heads. The moves he makes leading up to the draft and later in the summer will be important. And next year we will need to see more returns from his acquisitions (Sbisa, Clendening, Vey, Baertschi, Pedan, Virtanen, McCann, Miller, etc.) We need a lot more than the one unambiguous positive from this year (Vrbata). I don't think the fan base has bought into the claim that the team is trending up. I haven't. It looks to me like the team has lost ground to Calgary and Edmonton this year, and I don't see LA and Anaheim and San Jose going way. And I think Benning will be on a short leash from the fans' point of view. You're Damn right we've lost ground. We were just ousted from the playoffs by Michael ferlund, Matt stajan and Kris whatever that dmans name is. Grinders and work ethic will either keep us out of the post season or knock us out. And it's not good enough or acceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rush17 Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 People need to chill and be patient. We're rebuilding whether you admit it or not. We're staying competitive, but still rebuilding. Be patient, rebuilds take awhile. We wont magically be elite in 1 summer. Agreed. This is way better then the alternative entering into NJD stage. At least we got some exciting hockey and on every given year we have a chance to go on a Cinderella run. Way better then the alternatives of the dark ages which some of us are familiar with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallstreetamigo Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 Teama get first dibs on them in exchange for a low pick to talk to them... Smh I doubt any team would value them so much they would trade anything for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mackcanuck Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 Good post... I don't think it's really accurate giving Benning all this credit for signing Vrbata. Benning et al were all in on Jerome Iginla before he chose Colo (heard we offered 6 mil). Vrbata was signed as a consolation, as the only remaining RW to play with the Sedins. Had we landed Iginla, I doubt the reviews would be as favorable. i think JB's greatest accomplishment has been rebuilding the depth of the organization. Individually, all moves may not look great, but without the depth...there is no way we'd have gained 101 pts and a playoff berth. Not to mention his contribution to the 180 degree "about face" of the image of the Canuck brand. If we got Iginla, we probably would be playing in Anaheim tomorrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cupless44 Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 Only idiots have Benning on their short leash and think that the retool can be fixed in just one summer... People need to just sit back and shut up. Grab a beer and watch the draft or something. I dunno… I would be totally into watching a very good draft this year. Problem is Benning has left us with only 1 pick in first 113 players. Meanwhile the exciting young team that just beat us has 5 picks in the top 100. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollumpus Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 If we got Iginla, we probably would be playing in Anaheim tomorrow Maybe. He also signed a multi-year deal at $5+ million per season, and he's 35+ which makes him a bit of a risk. That being said, it would have been nice to get him. regards, G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riffraff Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 Regular season possibly vrbata>Iggy Playoffs:iggy>vrbata. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollumpus Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 I would be totally into watching a very good draft this year. Problem is Benning has left us with only 1 pick in first 113 players. Meanwhile the exciting young team that just beat us has 5 picks in the top 100. At the moment this is true. I can also see the possibility of a number of picks (2nds and/or 3rds) coming to the Canucks based on the number of RFA prospects the team has which the team either has to keep at the NHL level or risk losing them to waivers. regards, G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sbriggs Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 it is a test every summer for every gm...they have a plan and are sticking to it...i agree with everything he's said so far...easy to see that he is a smart hockey man...plus he doesn't take his advice from cdc... Thank god he doesnt take advice from CDC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sbriggs Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 People you need to settle down. You are expecting a miricle in 1 season. compared to last season this year has to be a sucess and the fact that we do have younger players in our line up. Give some of these young guys another year to show there worth if not Im sure Benning will dump them. A GM's make judgement calls on talent and some work out and some dont. The key to a good GM is knowing when to fold them and move on, I mean you cant blame a guy for trying right. We have young talent in our minor team and Jr hockey and Im sure we'll see some of them next season but I have to agree with Linden when he says he rather send them down to learn thre craft before bringing them up to play in the bigs. Makes sense and how do I kNow? Detroit Red Wings. Judging this management team can be done in about year 3 or 4 and I put my money on us being a cup contender. And for you Calgary comparissions, they started there re-build much earlier then us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sxqhfeh Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 Regular season possibly vrbata>Iggy Playoffs:iggy>vrbata. so? get both Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesB Posted April 30, 2015 Author Share Posted April 30, 2015 Thanks for the feedback on my OP guys. I would like to respond to a few points. 1. A number of people say that we should be patient, that we should give JB time, etc. ANSWER: I do not disagree but my OP is NOT about what fans SHOULD do. It is about what is actually happening. And what is happening (in my view) is that Benning is on a short leash. You can see it in the questions he got at the press conference, in the slow sales for playoff tickets and season tickets, on HF boards and, to a lesser extent, on CDC, on calls to talk radio, etc. From all this data it is pretty obvious that the honeymoon is over. Fans and media types do NOT expect to win the Stanley Cup next year. But they do want to see evidence that Benning is making good decisions and has the team on the right path to contend for a Cup within a few years. The fact that the Canucks were beaten in the first round by a young and improving team that looks like it has overtaken the Canucks is a nagging concern to the fan base and any honest person who is not a complete homer should recognize it. And then Edmonton gets McDavid and hires Benning's old boss at GM. Life is not getting easier in the Pacific Division. 2. In any thread that is critical of GM or coach someone always says something to the effect that they are professionals, they know what they are doing and people on CDC don't know much. ANSWER: It is true that a GM like Benning knows much more about evaluating players than fans do. When Benning picked up Vey, Clendening, Pedan, Baertschi, etc. I had no idea about the quality of those players. Obviously Benning knows far, far more. Same with the draft or even with pick-ups of well-known players like Miller and Vrbata. But fans are capable of assessing the results. That is different. Ultimately the main result is winning or losing and we can all see that. We can also see how individual players have done, especially now that there are a lot of numbers that can be used to assess player performance, along with the "eye test". There is, for example, no doubt that Vey was a disappointment. He was by far the worst forward on the team in pts, per 60 minutes. According to War-on-Ice his 5-on-5 points per 60 minutes rate was 1.07. See http://war-on-ice.com/playertable.html. The next worst Canucks were Matthias at 1.42 and Dorsett at 1.43. Vey's number is dreadful, especially for a guy who is not strong defensively, does not contribute to the physical game, and has less speed than most people expected. Rookie or not a guy who is 23 cannot stay in the NHL with numbers like that. So fans can assess results and that is mainly what my OP was about. We do not need to see a Cup, but we do need to see the players Benning brings in doing well. Looking at the past year, I would say that Vrbata and Dorsett exceeded expectations, Sbisa was maybe about the expected level, Miller was below, Vey was below and Bonino was below. Among the draft picks I would say Virtanen, while a good prospect, was below expectations while McCann was slightly above. Clendening and Beartschi were late season pick-ups so it is a bit early to say much on them but I would say they look about the expected level. So my argument is that the Canucks will struggle with the fan base if last year's acquisitions and this summer's moves (whatever they turn out to be) do not show good pregress next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khay Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 My personal opinion is I always felt Gillis was an incredible GM to bring us to odds on favorites for the Stanley Cup 2011, 2 back to back President Trophy's. I always felt after ownership got too involved Gillis couldn't make the decisions he really wanted. Even Benning said IF the Canucks were not so injured Boston would have NOT won the Cup. I agree with the statement on Gillis. He gets criticized too much for the NTC's but to keep the salary down, he had no choice. Drafting wasn't too good but that's more because of us picking so high. Another thing that I think Gillis did well looking back is that he didn't fire AV when he took over as the GM in 2008. I think any GM would want to bring his own coach but Gillis after careful evaluation decided not to fire him and I think that was an important decision in which he doesn't get enough credit for. Hiring of Torts is probably the owner's decision and Gillis got canned for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesB Posted April 30, 2015 Author Share Posted April 30, 2015 I agree with the statement on Gillis. He gets criticized too much for the NTC's but to keep the salary down, he had no choice. Drafting wasn't too good but that's more because of us picking so high. Another thing that I think Gillis did well looking back is that he didn't fire AV when he took over as the GM in 2008. I think any GM would want to bring his own coach but Gillis after careful evaluation decided not to fire him and I think that was an important decision in which he doesn't get enough credit for. Hiring of Torts is probably the owner's decision and Gillis got canned for it. Most people believe this, including me. But I remember Gillis claiming that the coaching decision was his call, that Torts was his first choice, and that he thought Torts would be a great coach. And he gave the guy a 5-year contract (or at least signed off on it). I would have preferred him to say nothing rather than lie about it. I know he was asked by reporters. He could have just said "We are very happy to have John with us" and said nothing more. It is not like Torts did not know the situation. I think one of things that hurt Gillis was that people stopped believing what he said -- fans, reporters, players, other GMs, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elvis15 Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 Teama get first dibs on them in exchange for a low pick to talk to them... Smh What a 7th? If that? Ehrhoff got us a 4th and he was in demand, Matthias and Richardson will go to July 1st unless they end up as a throw in on another deal (also unlikely). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crabcakes Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 OP this is a pet bugaboo of mine that keeps getting dragged up and misunderstood time and again. Without the Garrison trade, there is no Vrbata. It was first a salary dump, and the bonus was a 2nd pick (traded for Vey). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo.Horvat53 Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 Kind of sucks now that we didn't deal Matthias for a pick. But I thought he would be key in a playoff run... Oh well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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