Jump to content
The Official Site of the Vancouver Canucks
Canucks Community

This is our Core (Discussion) (LONG READ)


Recommended Posts

When ever the topic is brought up of a rebuild, the Canuck faithful come out in mass to say that we should rebuild on the fly, and all I can say, is that those teams that have waited too long have suffered for long periods of time.

As anyone can see that we are certainly top heavy in the age department, and for the most part we do not have the talent to replace those aging core veterans that will have their skill levels drop, in the next couple of years. Other teams will not give away promising talent without massive overpayment, so like other teams have shown, the draft is the only way to build, and we are aways, away right now.

For me, it is not a question of skill at this very moment or loyalty, or who we may sign in the next couple of years as a free agent, or how long we have had a player, to me it is the team first, and players second. Players will leave or retire when they are ready, and not when the team is ready.

Even Hank and Dan will leave the NHL when they are ready, and if they want to go back and play in Sweden before hanging them up for good, they will. It wasn't the Canucks that brought back Hamhuis to the Canucks, it was rather family and friends.

Fans need to take a step back and focus on the reality, and when players normally mature, and that our young talent will not be ready in time for the mass exodus of aging talent. My only thought here is, that the Bennings moves in the next 8 1/2 months will decide whether our rebuild is a 3 to 4 year rebuild or a longer 6 or 7 year long rebuild.

We are too old, too young, not enough young skill, too much money invested in our aging core to not move core pieces sooner than later......looking at the age of our core tell us that...tells me that, anyways.

Henrick Sedin 34

Daniel Sedin 34

Radim Vrbata 34

Ryan Miller 34

Alex Burrows 34

Kevin Bieska 34

Dan Hamhuis 32

Chris Higgins 32

Alex Edler 29

Eddy Lack 27

Nick Bonino 27

Chris Tanev 25

Bo Horvat 20

I would like to see 5 veterans moved within the next 8 1/2 months, as having them fall of the vine and rot, does not please me. Loosing players to free agency does not please me, and I can't believe that Benning has let those assets just walk.

IMO, we will look back at this last year and regret the decisions made, including pushing for every point going down the stretch, wasting valuable draft positions for a pointless crusade.

We shall see what these next few years bring, but IMO we lost more than we gained.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think a lot of fans would agree with you, but this is not just about winning the cup. It's a business with an Owner that wants return on his investment. The only way he gets return is to keep the seats full, that requires a competitive team.

If they (management) told the fans they were going to rebuild for a few years, how many season tickets are going to be sold???

Think about it.... we are not Buffalo and will never ever be.

The Canucks will always be a middling team and if they get really really lucky, maybe one day they will win the cup, but they will never get a generational talent.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

^& to add to the above..it's just too late to look back at that fork in the road.

We had to decide in late-Jan/Feb, whether we'd stay the course, or sell for more youth/picks. Our only selling was to add to Utica-which seemed to work out nicely.

I posted two threads on this, in mid-Jan('Sink or Swim?'..'A Simple, Honest Question'). More than a few of us wanted to sell pieces like Rich, Matthias & a D; but then there's also been speculation that mgt likely promised one last attempt, to the core.

Just knew we'd be beating this to death as draft approaches.

For the whole bloody board of topics, there should be a pact of acceptance.. new GM, Pres & coach-so they had to give it a go(this spring). So why doesn't everyone agree, & let's all look fwd?

edit- for the OP, this was mostly a reply to your last coupla' paragraphs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When ever the topic is brought up of a rebuild, the Canuck faithful come out in mass to say that we should rebuild on the fly, and all I can say, is that those teams that have waited too long have suffered for long periods of time.

As anyone can see that we are certainly top heavy in the age department, and for the most part we do not have the talent to replace those aging core veterans that will have their skill levels drop, in the next couple of years. Other teams will not give away promising talent without massive overpayment, so like other teams have shown, the draft is the only way to build, and we are aways, away right now.

For me, it is not a question of skill at this very moment or loyalty, or who we may sign in the next couple of years as a free agent, or how long we have had a player, to me it is the team first, and players second. Players will leave or retire when they are ready, and not when the team is ready.

Even Hank and Dan will leave the NHL when they are ready, and if they want to go back and play in Sweden before hanging them up for good, they will. It wasn't the Canucks that brought back Hamhuis to the Canucks, it was rather family and friends.

Fans need to take a step back and focus on the reality, and when players normally mature, and that our young talent will not be ready in time for the mass exodus of aging talent. My only thought here is, that the Bennings moves in the next 8 1/2 months will decide whether our rebuild is a 3 to 4 year rebuild or a longer 6 or 7 year long rebuild.

We are too old, too young, not enough young skill, too much money invested in our aging core to not move core pieces sooner than later......looking at the age of our core tell us that...tells me that, anyways.

Henrick Sedin 34

Daniel Sedin 34

Radim Vrbata 34

Ryan Miller 34

Alex Burrows 34

Kevin Bieska 34

Dan Hamhuis 32

Chris Higgins 32

Alex Edler 29

Eddy Lack 27

Nick Bonino 27

Chris Tanev 25

Bo Horvat 20

I would like to see 5 veterans moved within the next 8 1/2 months, as having them fall of the vine and rot, does not please me. Loosing players to free agency does not please me, and I can't believe that Benning has let those assets just walk.

IMO, we will look back at this last year and regret the decisions made, including pushing for every point going down the stretch, wasting valuable draft positions for a pointless crusade.

We shall see what these next few years bring, but IMO we lost more than we gained.

AKA Trying to win? Isn't that kind of the point of pro sports?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nux

Totally agree with what you said, but to me it is pay me now or pay me later, except later will not have as much asset to build with. Meaning if everyone gets old before either retiring or being traded, there just won't be much value in moving them, and their contributions just won't be there.......and we will fall and be worst off for it.

I would move a goalie (Lack) for Edmonton's 2nd (33 OA) (Which there seems to be some consensus on), even if we had to add to make it happen, I'd move Hamhuis "IF" he would go as well.

I would move the rest at the deadline. Again "IF" that could all happen at the draft, I would pick all Dman if possible, including moving up if possible.

Again at the trade deadline, I would hope the hell Vrbata was having another good year and move him as well, the rest are just dregs and could possibly pick up some 3's or 4's.

this would also help with Cap.

As for falling, I would much rather control how and when I fell, then just toil around in the 10 to 15 spot for the next 4 to 6 years, hoping to get lucky.

I am all about fixing what is wrong, not closing my eyes and hoping that the train doesn't hit me!

In saying all that, and admitting the "IF" is a big one. I agree with you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

ANB, Takes time & patience from here out-there's no doubt. Yet it's easy for people like myself to state, for I haven't bought tix/merch for nearing two decades..I'm cheap enough to treasure a library card.

So in the end-they can do whatever the Hell they want-I'll just be taking up other hobbies, while their seeds start out.

In my not so humble view, the selling time was perfect, this past Feb/March..was castigated for expressing this a few months back-so there's a nice diversity of opinions (trying to coexist), to suit one & all, you could say.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OP

You've hit on some salient issues with the Canucks and, to be brief, I will spare you the why's and the where fore's.

Age - If you look at the ages of all the players on the roster, it is somewhat donut shaped. The core is mostly over 30, there are a bunch of prospects and younger players under 25. And prospects coming from the draft year after the cup run which I think began in earnest in 2012 with the Brendan Gaunce draft. This is a simplistic but it explains much of what Benning has been up to by adding players in the 22-26 age range (Bonino, McMillan, Vey, Baertschi, Sbisa, Clendening, Pedan....)

Strategy - Longer term, management wants the Canucks to be a draft and develop team. Strong on development. Kind of like the Detroit Red Wings. We see the purchase of the team that would become the Utica Comets in 2013 so the Canucks could have full control over the development of their prospects. Also, the push to draft, retain and develop a full slate of picks every year so that ultimately, there will be 2-3 young players graduating to the Canuck team every year on average. A constant stream of in house developed players, developed the right way so that the team doesn't have to rely on trades and over priced UFA signings.

Management is also wanting to develop players in a positive, winning environment. The way that only veteran performers who have been at the top can do. This is why they aren't willing to just strip down the team and start over like Buffalo or Edmonton has and why guys like Dorsett have been brought in and many of the so called old core retained.

Obviously, the young up and coming player in this system will not be ready to take lead roles before the older guys will have to retire. This is why some players are being brought in who can fill interim roles while we are waiting for the younger players to mature. Here, I would include Bonino, Dorsett, Hansen, Richardson, Edler, Sbisa and to a lesser extent Tanev, and Weber.

I hope this helps.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

48MPH

Winning is what it is all about, but long term planning is what you do If you have vision.

Going half way , in anything is not a good idea.....and I mean anything!! ( had to edit this for obvious reasons! LOL)

Sorry. Seems very much so like another "lets tank" thread. No thanks. I'm all for developing young players and gaining draft picks, but I'd also like to pick up every point possible along the way, and bring these kids into a healthy, positive environment.

That, and the idea of purposely putting a poor product on the ice is morally reprehensible.

Benning and co are better than that, thank God.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When ever the topic is brought up of a rebuild, the Canuck faithful come out in mass to say that we should rebuild on the fly, and all I can say, is that those teams that have waited too long have suffered for long periods of time.

As anyone can see that we are certainly top heavy in the age department, and for the most part we do not have the talent to replace those aging core veterans that will have their skill levels drop, in the next couple of years. Other teams will not give away promising talent without massive overpayment, so like other teams have shown, the draft is the only way to build, and we are aways, away right now.

For me, it is not a question of skill at this very moment or loyalty, or who we may sign in the next couple of years as a free agent, or how long we have had a player, to me it is the team first, and players second. Players will leave or retire when they are ready, and not when the team is ready.

Even Hank and Dan will leave the NHL when they are ready, and if they want to go back and play in Sweden before hanging them up for good, they will. It wasn't the Canucks that brought back Hamhuis to the Canucks, it was rather family and friends.

Fans need to take a step back and focus on the reality, and when players normally mature, and that our young talent will not be ready in time for the mass exodus of aging talent. My only thought here is, that the Bennings moves in the next 8 1/2 months will decide whether our rebuild is a 3 to 4 year rebuild or a longer 6 or 7 year long rebuild.

We are too old, too young, not enough young skill, too much money invested in our aging core to not move core pieces sooner than later......looking at the age of our core tell us that...tells me that, anyways.

Henrick Sedin 34

Daniel Sedin 34

Radim Vrbata 34

Ryan Miller 34

Alex Burrows 34

Kevin Bieska 34

Dan Hamhuis 32

Chris Higgins 32

Alex Edler 29

Eddy Lack 27

Nick Bonino 27

Chris Tanev 25

Bo Horvat 20

I would like to see 5 veterans moved within the next 8 1/2 months, as having them fall of the vine and rot, does not please me. Loosing players to free agency does not please me, and I can't believe that Benning has let those assets just walk.

IMO, we will look back at this last year and regret the decisions made, including pushing for every point going down the stretch, wasting valuable draft positions for a pointless crusade.

We shall see what these next few years bring, but IMO we lost more than we gained.

JB and TL said they thought the core deserved one last chance to see if they could compete for a playoff spot so that's what they focussed on. They had their shot and now its time for a flip. Changes to the core will definitely be made sooner rather than later

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think a lot of fans would agree with you, but this is not just about winning the cup. It's a business with an Owner that wants return on his investment. The only way he gets return is to keep the seats full, that requires a competitive team.

If they (management) told the fans they were going to rebuild for a few years, how many season tickets are going to be sold???

Think about it.... we are not Buffalo and will never ever be.

The Canucks will always be a middling team and if they get really really lucky, maybe one day they will win the cup, but they will never get a generational talent.

I disagree completely. Whether owners like it or not the Canucks, unless drastic changes and massive luck occur, are going to be a basement, or near basement team after the Sedins retire. We will be a lottery team soonish, unless some serious finessing and hella luck with our current prospects somehow works out and the Sedins production is replaced.

I dont agree with purposely tanking, and I'm all for trying to retool, but I have no illusions that chances are we are going to be a bottom ten team for at least a few years after the Sedins retire. If that happens, who knows? Maybe we win a lottery and get someone generational, or more likely, elite franchise level.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Whatever money Aquilini gets from two games in the playoffs, he'll save by being a cap floor team.

Two playoff games arent where the money is. It's the reg season sellouts (ish) and season ticket holders. All that goes away with a tank. Less merchandise sales, food sales and TV viewers. Weakening of the brand in general, etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

JB and TL said they thought the core deserved one last chance to see if they could compete for a playoff spot so that's what they focussed on. They had their shot and now its time for a flip. Changes to the core will definitely be made sooner rather than later

My thoughts exactly. Benning did not trade Mattias or anyone else because the team was rolling, and he thought he would give this core one more chance under Willie and the reinvigorated Sedins. I was also in the same boat, and quite excited when they made the playoffs. Its just too bad that Miller was hurt, and Kassian didnt even play, and burrows was done. What was VERY important was that we all got to see what this team needs to be successful in the playoffs. The flames exposed our D, and the lack of speed along the wings.

People keep saying trade away the core, but its better to hold on to them rather than get a garbage pick. Most of their value is low, nobody wants players from our team. I would rather try to win games and bring prospects into this environment so they can learn how to win. I dont care if we get booted out of the first round again, as long as we show the young guys what we need to do to win. Remember Mats Sundin? I truly believe he got the Sedins to the next level, as the next year without Mats the Sedins started to dominate the league. Just have faith in Bennings Scouting and Lindens respectful overture of the club.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

it is refreshing to see that there are some level headed fans on here....

it is so frustrating always reading how we have to blow the team up and play musical players...

you can't move core players before you have players to take their place...

if baerschi, gaunce, corrado, clendening and markstrom can crack the line up this year, and

virtanen, shinkaruk, cassels or maybe mccann can crack the line up the year after, would be the best.

if benning can make a few astute move, over the next 2 years, our new team will be really taking shape.

if people say they can be patient with a complete rebuild, why can't they be patient through a gradual rebuild?....benning has a vision for this team, plus he has the knowledge to do it properly...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Then the 'others' will argue the other extreme-do you wanna' be Edm, etc..etc..

CAN'T please all the CDC'ers, all the time.

I would counter asking if you want to be the maple Leafs?

Oilers failed because of crappy management. Watch the new team trade/draft/sign for defense, grit and goaltending and be dangerous for many years.

Supposedly we have a champion for a GM so we should not have to worry about becoming the Oilers in a youth movement.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

JB and TL said they thought the core deserved one last chance to see if they could compete for a playoff spot so that's what they focussed on. They had their shot and now its time for a flip. Changes to the core will definitely be made sooner rather than later

I don't think that's what they said. Do you have a source for it?

Certainly what you say about "one last chance" is inconsistent with this quote from JB reported May 23:

"... What we tried to do in Boston was we tried to make the playoffs every year and we started integrating young players into our mix. Our team, over time, they learned how to win, and our young players learned how to win. Now they’re at the point where those young players are now the veteran players. When (Canucks president Trevor Linden) was talking about sustainable winning, they have a chance to win every year, and that’s what we’re trying to do around here.”

http://nesn.com/2014/05/jim-benning-downplays-boston-model-looks-to-add-depth-to-canucks/

I also don't think Canucks' management ever said anything about one last chance earlier in the year.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Joe

You have a lot of "IF's" in your winning process.

Just as a matter of interest, who does anyone see as first line, Stanley Cup Finalist type players? I don't see those elite players in our prospects and we have 2 years after this before the Sedin's need to be 2nd line players at best.

Those of you that want to rely on the rebuild on the fly model, just have to answer for this question..............who will replace the Sedins?

What I can tell you after watching the first period of Chicago - Tampa is that we do not have 1 players that looks like the Chicago starting line up..........nothing that quick, nothing with that high of IQ

So we will have to do it the Boston or Detroit way and get lucky to draft a Chara or Lindstrom, because other than having a least 3 lines that can interchange, we must have an elite Dman or 2...............there are so many "IF's" in the rebuild on the fly side.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...