[speculation] M. Grigorenko may sign in the KHL

[mikeburn]

Vey gives them a 22yr old middle six right winger with skill. Hey may bust but it's really not a bad add on to get it done. They aren't getting an established top six player for grigs but vey does have a chance to be a second liner at some point.

Veys not really bad, just horvat was way better. If buffalo was really into lack, i could see them taking a chance on vey and playing him on the wing.

Hmm... But where? The Sabres are full of options up front already...

Top 9 Wings:

Kane (just acquired for the 1st line)

Girgensens (when Eichel and Reinhart are ready to assume 1c/2c respectively)

Moulson (3x30+ goal scorer with a NTC)

Ennis (1st round Buffalo pick with heart-on-sleeve and proven top 6 ability)

Foligno (who mgmt has declared to be a core guy)

Gionta (captain, isn't gonna fall below the 3rd any time soon)

4th line already has Deslauriers (just re-signed for the job), which leaves *maybe* one 4th line wing spot open, but only if Hodgson is in fact traded or bought out, Kaleta isn't re-signed (and he's apparently in talks now), and they don't use that opening for one of the many other rookies and prospects that they already have such as Larsson (highly thought of) and McCormick.

No knock intended on Vey, it's just that I don't see the Sabres thinking about buying out Hodgson and offering Grigorenko (who arguably has a far higher ceiling than Vey) just a 2-way deal, only to turn around and magically make room for Vey. And really, even if Vey's ceiling is the 2nd line, again, the Sabres are full of those guys already - for now and long into the future. In the absence of the Sabres doing another trade altogether (that say, moved one of their currently locked-in top 9 wings), I think Vey would be a very redundant piece.

If Lack for a good pick wasn't enough, if it just had to be a packaged deal, I'd imagine Buffalo would be more open to finding roster room for a denseman. Lack&Bieska for a 2nd&Grigorenko's rights seems more likely to fit the Sabres' actual needs.

[coryberg]

Vey gives them a 22yr old middle six right winger with skill. Hey may bust but it's really not a bad add on to get it done. They aren't getting an established top six player for grigs but vey does have a chance to be a second liner at some point.

Veys not really bad, just horvat was way better. If buffalo was really into lack, i could see them taking a chance on vey and playing him on the wing.

vey had 24 points last year, that would put him at #6 on the sabres in scoring. Not bad seeing as he played on the 4th line all year....well it's sad for the sabres.

[mikeburn]

vey had 24 points last year, that would put him at #6 on the sabres in scoring. Not bad seeing as he played on the 4th line all year....well it's sad for the sabres.

Talking about the Sabres scoring woes of last season is irrevalant to the topic of where a CDC castaway might slot in next season.

Whether his name is Vey or Higgins, Sabres have zero room for yet another top 9 forward, and only 1 possible spot on the 4th *if* they don't want to reserve that spot for any one of their slew of veteran and prospect options.

[coryberg]

Talking about the Sabres scoring woes of last season is irrevalant to the topic of where a CDC castaway might slot in next season.

Whether his name is Vey or Higgins, Sabres have zero room for yet another top 9 forward, and only 1 possible spot on the 4th *if* they don't want to reserve that spot for any one of their slew of veteran and prospect options.

so the sabres were the biggest losers in the NHL cause they couldn't score...yet getting players that can actually put up points is irelivant? Only if tank nation is going to continue. They have to decide to cut bait and try to win soon, to do that they will have to rid themselves of the 50% ahl roster and get people that put up more than 15 points per season.

[Baer.]

Well, let's see... The prevailing theory is that the Sabres are offering Grigorenko a two-way deal leading to the kid possibly considering a flip to the KHL... So, gee, maybe it's not so fruity for the topic of other alternatives to come up - say, like a trade out of Sabreland altogether?

So you would trade for a guy who threatens to leave for the KHL because he doesn't like the contact he was offered? Suit yourself.

[mikeburn]

so the sabres were the biggest losers in the NHL cause they couldn't score...yet getting players that can actually put up points is irelivant? Only if tank nation is going to continue. They have to decide to cut bait and try to win soon, to do that they will have to rid themselves of the 50% ahl roster and get people that put up more than 15 points per season.

That you persist with looking in the past tense to consider where a Vey might fit in the future is the disconnect here.

To try clarifying it this way -

The Sabres of next season are simply not the Sabres of last season. Their roster for next season is not 50% AHL, the Sabres have already gotten players in queue who can put up points and have higher ceilings than Vey. Ergo Vey would be 100% irrevelant.

Truly, take a look at this list of locked in players and tell me who you figure that the Sabres would want Vey to replace?

Kane (just acquired)

Girgensens (highly regarded youngster, mgmt presently has slotted in as 1C)

Ennis (Buffalo first rounder, proven top 6 producer, signed l/t)

Moulson (3X 30 goal scorer, vet leader, signed l/t with NTC)

Foligno (one of mgmt's declared "core" players)

Gionta (aging, but captain, true leader, not going anywhere)

Eichel (presumably drafted 2015 and thought to be a generational player who will jump right into top 6)

Reinhart (drafted 2014, projected to be top 6 by year's end if not to start)

Larsson (highly regarded rookie projected to have a breakout in the middle 9)

Deslauries (just re-signed, presumably for the 4th)

McCormick (re-signed, presumably to center the 4th)

That's your top 11 forwards. Which one of them do you truly figure the Sabres would be willing to replace with Vey.

Unless you're thinking of Vey plugging into the 4th line grinder role, Sabres have zero use for the kid.

So you would trade for a guy who threatens to leave for the KHL because he doesn't like the contact he was offered? Suit yourself.

It's about context.

The rumour of Grigorenko looking to the KHL isn't merely because of the also rumoured 2-way deal offer. Sabres have zero room for Grigorenko in the top 9 unless there are injuries. It'd be practical if the kid looked at his spot on the depth chart, realized no matter how well he plays there will never be a top 6 opening, and saw the KHL option as either a way to actually develop into his potential or a method to push for a trade to a team that actually has an opening to compete for...

[tyhee]

vey had 24 points last year, that would put him at #6 on the sabres in scoring. Not bad seeing as he played on the 4th line all year....well it's sad for the sabres.

1. "vey had 24 points last year" True

2. "that would put him at #6 on the sabres in scoring" Ok, it would put him tied for 6th with Stafford, though Stafford played 50 games and had a total of 799 minutes playing time compared with Vey's 75 games and 988 minutes.

It also suggests that a straight across comparison is meaningful. I don't understand how there is any valid comparison between scoring on a team that came 2nd in its division overall and scored 242 goals and the woeful Sabres who scored 161 goals and gave up 274. I'm not sure what validity you're suggesting. What does Vey scoring 24 points for the Canucks have to do with what he or anyone else did or would have done with the Sabres? Surely being hemmed in the defensive zone, as the truly awful Sabres were, has to restrict scoring chances. More on this below.

3. "Not bad seeing as he played on the 4th line all year."

Well, this is the part I have real trouble with.

First of all, it suggests even strength, since 4th liners don't play the PP much, nor the PK all that much. Taking into account only even strength and taking into account the number of minutes played, Vey's 5 on 5 pts/60 minutes played was 1.09, ahead of only Brandon McMillan among Canucks forwards who played 50 + minutes. http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/ratings.php?db=201415&sit=5v5&type=individual&teamid=29&pos=forwards&minutes=50&disp=1&sort=PCT&sortdir=DESC

In short, his 5 on 5 scoring on the Canucks was really low.

Secondly, it seems to me that Buffalo, which scored 161 goals and gave up 274, spent much of its time in the defensive zone, far more than say Vancouver which scored more goals than it gave up (both at even strength and overall.) I don't see the point of comparing scoring for a forward on a normal team with scorers on a team which spent much of the time hemmed in its own end, not getting scoring chances. I'm not sure the reason or what was supposed to be shown by the comparison.

Thirdly, I didn't think "Vey played on the 4th line all year" at least before Richardson's injury. I thought the 4th line was Horvat-Dorsett-Kenins, with Hansen on the line before Kenins was called up and occasionally others. To check, I looked at who Vey's linemates were by minutes played at 5 on 5, and they were:

Dorsett 310 min

Higgins 266 min

Matthias 263 min

Richardson 171 min

Hansen 123 min

Bonino 101 min

Burrows 89 min

Vrbata 87 min

Kassian 70 min

D Sedin 34 min

Horvat 32 min

McMillan 30 min

H Sedin 18 min

Kenins 18 min

Jensen 17 min

Baertschi 10, Sestito 8:30, DeFazio 7

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/showplayer.php?pid=1856&withagainst=true&season=2014-15&sit=5v5

Ok, clearly Vey had 4th line time, but I think it's overstating things to say he played on the 4th line all year. Dorsett, mostly a 4th liner, was his most frequent linemate, but that is followed by Higgins (2nd line most of the time), Matthias (3rd line most of the time, a little 2nd line and a little 4th), Richardson (almost exclusively 3rd line), Hansen (some 4th line, some 1st line, some 2nd and 3rd lines as well), Bonino (pretty much exclusively 2nd line), Burrows (mostly top 6 though played all lines), Vrbata (top 2 lines exlusively) and Kassian.

Another way of looking at it is that Dorsett, Matthias and Higgins were normally on different lines. Vey played a little more with Dorsett than either one of the others, but combined he played a lot more with Matthias and Higgins. So while Vey's even strength time appears to be more 4th line than any other single line, it appears to me he spent the majority of his even strength time on a variety of other lines.

I'm not making comments on Vey's potential for the future. I just think Vey's scoring with the Canucks this year was bad so can't accurately be described as "not bad."

[mikeburn]

1. "vey had 24 points last year" True

2. "that would put him at #6 on the sabres in scoring" Ok, it would put him tied for 6th with Stafford, though Stafford played 50 games and had a total of 799 minutes playing time compared with Vey's 75 games and 988 minutes.

It also suggests that a straight across comparison is meaningful. I don't understand how there is any valid comparison between scoring on a team that came 2nd in its division overall and scored 242 goals and the woeful Sabres who scored 161 goals and gave up 274. I'm not sure what validity you're suggesting. What does Vey scoring 24 points for the Canucks have to do with what he or anyone else did or would have done with the Sabres? Surely being hemmed in the defensive zone, as the truly awful Sabres were, has to restrict scoring chances. More on this below.

3. "Not bad seeing as he played on the 4th line all year."

Well, this is the part I have real trouble with.

First of all, it suggests even strength, since 4th liners don't play the PP much, nor the PK all that much. Taking into account only even strength and taking into account the number of minutes played, Vey's 5 on 5 pts/60 minutes played was 1.09, ahead of only Brandon McMillan among Canucks forwards who played 50 + minutes. http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/ratings.php?db=201415&sit=5v5&type=individual&teamid=29&pos=forwards&minutes=50&disp=1&sort=PCT&sortdir=DESC

In short, his 5 on 5 scoring on the Canucks was really low.

Secondly, it seems to me that Buffalo, which scored 161 goals and gave up 274, spent much of its time in the defensive zone, far more than say Vancouver which scored more goals than it gave up (both at even strength and overall.) I don't see the point of comparing scoring for a forward on a normal team with scorers on a team which spent much of the time hemmed in its own end, not getting scoring chances. I'm not sure the reason or what was supposed to be shown by the comparison.

Thirdly, I didn't think "Vey played on the 4th line all year" at least before Richardson's injury. I thought the 4th line was Horvat-Dorsett-Kenins, with Hansen on the line before Kenins was called up and occasionally others. To check, I looked at who Vey's linemates were by minutes played at 5 on 5, and they were:

Dorsett 310 min

Higgins 266 min

Matthias 263 min

Richardson 171 min

Hansen 123 min

Bonino 101 min

Burrows 89 min

Vrbata 87 min

Kassian 70 min

D Sedin 34 min

Horvat 32 min

McMillan 30 min

H Sedin 18 min

Kenins 18 min

Jensen 17 min

Baertschi 10, Sestito 8:30, DeFazio 7

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/showplayer.php?pid=1856&withagainst=true&season=2014-15&sit=5v5

Ok, clearly Vey had 4th line time, but I think it's overstating things to say he played on the 4th line all year. Dorsett, mostly a 4th liner, was his most frequent linemate, but that is followed by Higgins (2nd line most of the time), Matthias (3rd line most of the time, a little 2nd line and a little 4th), Richardson (almost exclusively 3rd line), Hansen (some 4th line, some 1st line, some 2nd and 3rd lines as well), Bonino (pretty much exclusively 2nd line), Burrows (mostly top 6 though played all lines), Vrbata (top 2 lines exlusively) and Kassian.

Another way of looking at it is that Dorsett, Matthias and Higgins were normally on different lines. Vey played a little more with Dorsett than either one of the others, but combined he played a lot more with Matthias and Higgins. So while Vey's even strength time appears to be more 4th line than any other single line, it appears to me he spent the majority of his even strength time on a variety of other lines.

I'm not making comments on Vey's potential for the future. I just think Vey's scoring with the Canucks this year was bad so can't accurately be described as "not bad."

WOW. You put a lot of work into that, sweet stuff! I dunno all the specs of course so just presume you've got the rationale nailed, and it's kinda a side-track to the thread (Grigorenko to KHL), or even the general topic (Vey to Sabres in a package), but on behalf of those who appreciate the depth/detail of thinking, thanks.

Using your snap shot to dive back toward the Grigorenko packaging concept, I'd thought perhaps a Virbata might be more up Sabres' interests (for a genuine/proven scoring winger), but you know... what 'bout a Matthias? Swap of player rights? Sabres' GM seems to have younger "big" players in his crosshairs (not so much into prospects/rookies who play smaller).

[coryberg]

1. "vey had 24 points last year" True

2. "that would put him at #6 on the sabres in scoring" Ok, it would put him tied for 6th with Stafford, though Stafford played 50 games and had a total of 799 minutes playing time compared with Vey's 75 games and 988 minutes.

It also suggests that a straight across comparison is meaningful. I don't understand how there is any valid comparison between scoring on a team that came 2nd in its division overall and scored 242 goals and the woeful Sabres who scored 161 goals and gave up 274. I'm not sure what validity you're suggesting. What does Vey scoring 24 points for the Canucks have to do with what he or anyone else did or would have done with the Sabres? Surely being hemmed in the defensive zone, as the truly awful Sabres were, has to restrict scoring chances. More on this below.

3. "Not bad seeing as he played on the 4th line all year."

Well, this is the part I have real trouble with.

First of all, it suggests even strength, since 4th liners don't play the PP much, nor the PK all that much. Taking into account only even strength and taking into account the number of minutes played, Vey's 5 on 5 pts/60 minutes played was 1.09, ahead of only Brandon McMillan among Canucks forwards who played 50 + minutes. http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/ratings.php?db=201415&sit=5v5&type=individual&teamid=29&pos=forwards&minutes=50&disp=1&sort=PCT&sortdir=DESC

In short, his 5 on 5 scoring on the Canucks was really low.

Secondly, it seems to me that Buffalo, which scored 161 goals and gave up 274, spent much of its time in the defensive zone, far more than say Vancouver which scored more goals than it gave up (both at even strength and overall.) I don't see the point of comparing scoring for a forward on a normal team with scorers on a team which spent much of the time hemmed in its own end, not getting scoring chances. I'm not sure the reason or what was supposed to be shown by the comparison.

Thirdly, I didn't think "Vey played on the 4th line all year" at least before Richardson's injury. I thought the 4th line was Horvat-Dorsett-Kenins, with Hansen on the line before Kenins was called up and occasionally others. To check, I looked at who Vey's linemates were by minutes played at 5 on 5, and they were:

Dorsett 310 min

Higgins 266 min

Matthias 263 min

Richardson 171 min

Hansen 123 min

Bonino 101 min

Burrows 89 min

Vrbata 87 min

Kassian 70 min

D Sedin 34 min

Horvat 32 min

McMillan 30 min

H Sedin 18 min

Kenins 18 min

Jensen 17 min

Baertschi 10, Sestito 8:30, DeFazio 7

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/showplayer.php?pid=1856&withagainst=true&season=2014-15&sit=5v5

Ok, clearly Vey had 4th line time, but I think it's overstating things to say he played on the 4th line all year. Dorsett, mostly a 4th liner, was his most frequent linemate, but that is followed by Higgins (2nd line most of the time), Matthias (3rd line most of the time, a little 2nd line and a little 4th), Richardson (almost exclusively 3rd line), Hansen (some 4th line, some 1st line, some 2nd and 3rd lines as well), Bonino (pretty much exclusively 2nd line), Burrows (mostly top 6 though played all lines), Vrbata (top 2 lines exlusively) and Kassian.

Another way of looking at it is that Dorsett, Matthias and Higgins were normally on different lines. Vey played a little more with Dorsett than either one of the others, but combined he played a lot more with Matthias and Higgins. So while Vey's even strength time appears to be more 4th line than any other single line, it appears to me he spent the majority of his even strength time on a variety of other lines.

I'm not making comments on Vey's potential for the future. I just think Vey's scoring with the Canucks this year was bad so can't accurately be described as "not bad."

nice job with the stats. Not surprising at all that his number one line mate was Dorsett on the 4th line.

Judging his line by 5 on 5 time is a very good indicator. A simple even strength time on ice search puts Vey at #13 on the canucks forward group at 11:17 per game.

[AFrame14]

So you would trade for a guy who threatens to leave for the KHL because he doesn't like the contact he was offered? Suit yourself.

All depends on what the price tag is. If buffalo is certain he's going to he khl as long as he is sabres property than I'm sure another team coukd trade.for him quite cheap. Obv u don't give up alot to aquire a player in grigorinkos situation. If the price is right I def would tho.

[WHL rocks]

So you would trade for a guy who threatens to leave for the KHL because he doesn't like the contact he was offered? Suit yourself.

So if you were working at Mcdonalds for $10 and hour and you could get $50 per hour working at Burger King you wouldn't take the job?

BUF is offering him a 2 way deal. Meaning if he plays in the AHL he'll be making a fraction of what he would earn in the KHL. Common sense would dictate you go to work in your own country and make more money.

[Rush17]

Would love if we could snag Grigorenko. I honestly thought we might of dealt Kassian back to buf + lack for him +. With how Kass is looking physically and his new mental state though that might not be the best idea. In nhl 15 grig feels like a younger, less developed Pavel Datsyuk with a little more physicality. obviously thats just be a gm mode though.