Diakonos Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 We'll send you your Leafs jersey signed by Willy N in the mail. Until then some of us respect that Virtanen is our hometown boy and our prospect now and have given up whining about what's been done. So some of us have learned to just...let it go I respect that Virtanen is our hometown boy, and I cheer for him. However, the discussion was not "do we like Nylander?"; it was "how did Benning do" and, more immediately, "Virtanen is a safer pick than Nylander". My post responds to that misconception, and more generally the misconception that skill guys like Ehlers and Nylander are high-risk picks. In actuality, so long as someone isn't a midget, if they put up elite numbers then they have a better chance of succeeding in the NHL than someone who has a big body and contributes only good production. Historical comparisons bear this out, as suggested by the CA articles cited. Nylander- 5' 9" 169 lbs Ehlers- 5' 10" 176 lbs Virtanen 6' 0" 208 lbs The trend toward smaller players is not guaranteed. The League has changed refing standards mid-seaon before and will probably do so again if it helps their American markets. That was what Gillis meant when he referred to "chasing a moving target." We are much better off having size as well as speed in our lineup. Our future #1 center better be a power-type center with size and speed. I'm glad we passed on the little guys. I don't know where you got those numbers. Nylander was listed by the 2014 NHL draft site as 5' 11", which is quite different than 5' 9". I'll remind you that Crosby was listed at 5' 11" when he was drafted, too, and remains that height. Nylander isn't little, then, and he has had success playing against men (both in Sweden and in NA) because he's a good hockey player. The NHL suffers from a fascination with burly players that results in stupid decisions like the Sbisa contract, looking at aspects of a player ("he's big, he skates fast") instead of looking at the overall package or, at the very least, what matters most: hockey skills. There's not a chance in the world that Toronto or Winnipeg would trade Nylander or Ehlers for Virtanen straight up, and that's because everyone now knows, with an added year of comparison, that they are the better prospects. My point is that this could have been observed even a year ago. Just looked at the player types that had the most success against Chicago in the playoffs. Tampa's small snipers Johnson and Kucherov, for example, vanished against them. But Getzlaf and Anaheims power wingers racked up points against them, as well as Nashville's guys. I believe Chicago/Anaheim was the real finals because it was a lot closer. I wanted Tampa to win, but the close scores flattered them. Chicago controlled the whole series. I don't think anything has changed at all when it comes to winning in the playoffs, and it never will. And no, I am not saying line up a team full of 250lb goons either. It's always been about the combination of speed, strength and skill to get pucks to opposition nets. If you don't have enough of this, you'll never win. It's extremely disingenuous of you to omit the fact that Johnson's wrist was broken and place the sudden drop in his production thereafter on size instead. It's also disingenuous to select an unfavourable stretch of games to prove your point when you know very well hockey is a game of tremendous variance. By your logic, Stamkos must also be an inept goal-scorer, since he only put up 1 point and 0 goals during the finals. Guys like Kane, who is smaller than Kucherov, continue to have success because they are freaking good hockey players. That's it. Getzlaf and Perry put up points because they are phenomenal talents who can think the game at an elite level and execute as desired. Getlzaf happens to be enormous and he uses that to his advantage. Kane is not enormous and he uses that to his advantage. Given the exact same talent, sure, take the bigger player. But to get from that some principle that you need big bodies to win, well, that's myopic and it's that kind of thinking that will allow teams like Tampa (and now, Toronto) the opportunity to pounce on market inefficiencies—precisely the kind of management that's needed in a cap-era world. With what we've seen of Benning's work so far, I'm not sure the Canucks will see that kind of success in a long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintPatrick33 Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Hitmen's website says: 6'1" 207 lbs. I think we're going to be just fine. Thank you for this uplifting video montage....This makes me excited for next season, much like Horvat did last year. Hopefully Jake can make the team and be put into an offensive role. My biggest worry is that Willie will bury him in a defensive role and take away his offensive flair, kind of like what the Leafs did to Kadri. They need to follow how Chicago developed Kane, and never EVER take away an offensive guys instincts. You cant teach goal scoring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
48MPHSlapShot Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 The only thing we know for sure is that Virtanen has more V's in his name the Ehlers or Nylander. And you know what city starts with the letter V? That's right. Vancouver. Checkmate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JiffyPB Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 So they lost not because of size, but because of injury. Yet, if they were bigger, they would not have been as easily injured. Interesting, but I think i'm just going to stand by what i'm saying instead of looking into this. The size, strength and skill combination that the Hawks had once again was the class of the league. I think most winners have this superior combination. Hopefully the Canucks have a plan to get like this in the future. Otherwise, using injuries as an excuse will continue. Nonsense, the Hawks were not bigger than Anaheim, yet they managed to pull ahead despite being significantly smaller up front, sheltering 2 defensemen and taking an inhuman amount of abuse from the ducks in that series and it sure as hell wasn't because Chicago is a "big team." The hawks are one of the softest and least physically punishing teams in the league, their size had nothing to do with them winning. The only players you would consider "big" on that team would be Seabrook, Hjalmarsson and Bickell (a healthy scratch in the playoffs). Were Callahan, Morrow, Sustr, Hedman, Coburn, Boyle and Killorn small and soft? No. If anything, Tampa was the bigger, more well-rounded team that had greater depth as well. They just ran out of luck because their supposed best player choked hard in the big games and they lost 3 key players in their run. If only one of Bishop, Kucherov or Johnson were healthy that series looks different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diakonos Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Did Chicago LA Boston have the winning advanced stats? Actually, yes. Chicago and LA have been the best "advanced stats" teams of the past 6 years, and they account for 5 of 6 cups during that time. The one slip was Boston, and that was thanks to some freaking incredible play by goalie Tim Thomas and some bad luck in injuries against the Canucks, who were easily the best team in the league that year. (Not coincidentally, they had the best CF% close and FF% close that year, too.) In 2013 when Boston made it back to the finals, they were the 3rd best corsi team – after Chicago (1st) and LA (2nd)! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaBamba Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 I think "The Detroit Model" expression has been over-used and it should be more properly designated, "The Bowman Model". Scotty built every team he was associated with into a perennial contender and his son, with dad's mentorship, is doing the same. Stevie Y came from this school and is using it to add to his long list of accomplishments first as a player, then captain, and now GM. Montreal, Detroit, Chicago, and Tampa all had great success at the draft, developed their young talent, made astute trades, and back in the old no cap days, signed clutch free agents. They also adjusted on the fly, something I believe Canucks past management seemed reluctant to do; maybe this is a carry-over from Stand Pat, I don't know (of course). Benning should provide the draft success and Gillis has set up the development system very nicely indeed which JB has filled with good prospects (I know, except on top-end D). Trevor and Jim need to make some great trades and only sign free agents when we cannot adequately fill the roster from below; free agents within a cap system are too often overpaid. Great post, I believe Detriot's success lies in player development. They make something out of nothing all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baumerman77 Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Great post, I believe Detriot's success lies in player development. They make something out of nothing all the time. Maybe we should have hired someone out of Detroit's management to be our GM, I don't see anyone praising Boston's, Benning-era, player development model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crabcakes Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 I think it's fairly clear what the Benning regime is up to.....DRAFTING and DEVELOPMENT....sounds like the Detroit model to me. They're trying to draft the sort of players who will develop well. The model looks sound to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 People complain about getting pushed around by the flames in playoffs, then they complain that we didn't draft Nylander or Ehlers. Canucks are getting built for playoffs. Horvat + Virtanen is way better than Nichushkin + Nylander Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baumerman77 Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 People complain about getting pushed around by the flames in playoffs, then they complain that we didn't draft Nylander or Ehlers. Canucks are getting built for playoffs. Horvat + Virtanen is way better than Nichushkin + Nylander You don't need to be more physical to beat a physical team you just need to be more skilled. Case in point the Blackhawks. One of the best ways to beat an aggressive forecheck and a physical team is to have great puck moving defencemen like Keith. Chicago are arguable less physical than the Canucks and they would have easily swept the Flames. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dilettante Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Did Chicago LA Boston have the winning advanced stats? I'm not saying advanced stats is the end all be all for putting a good roster together. But when you're judging players, size should not be the heaviest weight that tips the scale. When it comes to hockey IQ, skill and size, size is something that is ultimately the easiest to make up for. The Leafs, pre-Shanahan, were openly against the use of analytics, just look where that's gotten them. Bowman was the first GM to heavily embrace the use of analytics in the NHL. Hockey is probably one of the most dynamically complicated professional games right now, analytics can help take away some of the question marks when it comes to managing a competitive team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Monahan Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 My thinking is that it's simply too soon to be make a verdict on JB's work thus far and specifically whether Virtanen was the right pick or not. We can discuss and debate, but to speaking conclusively is a little premature IMO. Going into last year's draft I was on the fence between virtanen and nylander and I could understand the argument for either player but now that it's done and Jake's in our system I'm going to be supporting him 100%. He's looking good to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crabcakes Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Speaking convulsively? Nobody can come to any conclusions about Virtanen until he's at least playing in the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BanTSN Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Nonsense, the Hawks were not bigger than Anaheim, yet they managed to pull ahead despite being significantly smaller up front, sheltering 2 defensemen and taking an inhuman amount of abuse from the ducks in that series and it sure as hell wasn't because Chicago is a "big team." The hawks are one of the softest and least physically punishing teams in the league, their size had nothing to do with them winning. The only players you would consider "big" on that team would be Seabrook, Hjalmarsson and Bickell (a healthy scratch in the playoffs). Were Callahan, Morrow, Sustr, Hedman, Coburn, Boyle and Killorn small and soft? No. If anything, Tampa was the bigger, more well-rounded team that had greater depth as well. They just ran out of luck because their supposed best player choked hard in the big games and they lost 3 key players in their run. If only one of Bishop, Kucherov or Johnson were healthy that series looks different. The Hawks out-depthed Anaheim, but they aren't a small team by any stretch if you just look at the numbers. The only significant small player they have is Kane, and he is supremely skilled. Tampa was schooled by this team, while Anaheim, who plays more like the Kings than the Hawks, at least made it close. The Kings are, at last checked, recent 2-time cup champions. Historically, it's always been these teams that have won cups. Teams with the best combination of size, speed and skill. I'm not sure what there is to argue about here since we already know the result, and it's been ongoing for decades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24K PureCool Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Maybe we should have hired someone out of Detroit's management to be our GM, I don't see anyone praising Boston's, Benning-era, player development model. Dude, eat a snicker. You are not you when you are hungry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Monahan Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Speaking convulsively? Nobody can come to any conclusions about Virtanen until he's at least playing in the league. Autocorrect, was supposed to be conclusively. And that's exactly what I'm saying. Too many posters are already asserting that Nylander and Ehlers will definitely be better players. It's been said a thousand times on here but the point totals don't tell the whole story and this is no exception IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintPatrick33 Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Autocorrect, was supposed to be conclusively. And that's exactly what I'm saying. Too many posters are already asserting that Nylander and Ehlers will definitely be better players. It's been said a thousand times on here but the point totals don't tell the whole story and this is no exception IMO. We can only hope that Jake turns out to develop like Sean Monahan, a regular 30 goal man. I think Jake's got a bit more nasty in him as well, but so far he is looking great Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaudette Celly Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 And I guess Nylander was slapping around pros in the AHL this year while Virtanen was playing against boys in the WHL? Right? That is consistent with your argumentation. I said it twice, and you didn't get it either time. For the third time, the response is about SIZE. And speaking of "slapping around", Ehlers and Nylander certainly don't do any of that and never will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaudette Celly Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 And that's exactly what I'm saying. Too many posters are already asserting that Nylander and Ehlers will definitely be better players. It's been said a thousand times on here but the point totals don't tell the whole story and this is no exception IMO. Yeah, welcome to the club. Been over a year now, and there is still no listening nor reason at such high levels of butthurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baumerman77 Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 I was one of the most vocal supporters of Virtanen on CDC going into the draft last year and I was very pleased when we got him. Of course stats don't tell everything and more importantly it is far too early to tell which player is the best NHLer. My point is that it is clearly evident that Ehlers and Nylander had better draft +1 seasons than Virtanen. That being said, Virtanen is still extremely young (for his draft class) and I believe he suffered from a below average shooting percentage which should regress up. Consequently, I expect Virtanen to have a monster +2 season in the WHL next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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