tas Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 #Salute OP. The Sky is falling Crowd is ridiculous. It was the same when "MayRay" got traded.....when Cody got traded..... hysterics.... Benning and Linden will build us a beauty. #InBenningWeTrust mason raymond was never traded, and everyone here was happy when his contract wasn't renewed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheYjUstMaKeYoUwooZy Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 All I've read for the last week and a half has been nothing but negativity on this board, and it's pathetic. I know Benning's made a couple questionable moves, and the Canucks are in no position to win anything right now. But you guys are completely missing the point. The point isn't to win right now. Benning knows we can't. Linden knows we can't. Hell, even the owners know we can't. But that's not what we're trying to accomplish. Don't any of you get it? We're not winning NOW. We're rebuilding, albeit not your standard rebuild, but it's what we're doing whether you want to admit it or not. You know what, we've been in this exact same situation very recently too. TBT time, to 2006! In 2005-2006, the season right after the lockout, the Canucks tried loading up veteran talent to make a run at the Stanley Cup that year. Naslund, Bertuzzi, Morrison, Linden, Jovanovski, Ohlund, Richard Park, and Anson Carter to name a couple. The Canucks had a few younger players in place too. The Sedin's, Burrows, Kesler, Salo, and Bieksa to name a few. What happened that year? Well, the WCE, which had been our core for years, they declined quite heavily. Part of it was the Moore fiasco obviously, but it marked the end of our cup window with the vets. We missed the playoffs by a slim margin, but it was apparent that they were done. The Canucks went into rebuilding mode that off season. Thing was, the Canucks had young players in place already that could lead this team to possible greatness, and they knew it, so they didn't have to build through the draft. First order of business was to get a young goalie with elite potential. They brought in Luongo, giving up a huge piece of our core in Todd Bertuzzi. They started building a defensive first game until our younger players could start contributing offensively, and thus the beginning of a new era started. Naslund, Morrison, and Linden stayed and mentored the twins, Kesler, Burrows, etc. The Canucks brought in stay at home defenseman Willie Mitchell, while Mattias Ohlund helped groom our D core. We suddenly got a lot YOUNGER. What people forget was, this turn around did not happen overnight. In fact, there were a lot of growing pains. Luongo pretty much single handedly got us into the playoffs in 2006-07, and we missed all together in 2007-08. But our young core was getting progressively better, and it was showing. We didn't have to tank either, we stayed competitive in this time. The Sedin's became PPG players, Kesler became an amazing 2way player, Burrows found his offense, and Bieksa and Mitchell lead our D corps on the blue line. Nobody can forget 2008-09, almost a disastrous year. Naslund and Morrison left at free agency, and Linden retired, and the reigns were given to the Twins, Luongo, and Kesler as the new leaders on the team. They struggled a bit, but also played good too, until in January, where we hit an 8 game losing streak. AV was nearly fired, our season was nearly lost, and it looked bleak. What happened next... Alex Burrows scored short handed and snapped our skid, and suddenly we went on an insane tear and made the playoffs. The new core had finally found themselves. They had come together as the future of Vancouver hockey, and as we're all aware, eventually took the Canucks on one of the most memorable runs in BC history in 2011. They became the new core. This is exactly what Vancouver's doing now.... our window on our current core is closed, and we know that. The difference between now and then, is the Canucks do not have the young guns yet to lead this team like we did back then. The Sedins right now are mentoring our young players until their ready to take over the reigns, same goes for Burrows, Higgins, Hamhuis, etc. Miller too. Miller is a huge key factor actually, more then you guys give him credit for You're all so hung up on Lack that you all forget about one key player. Jacob Markstrom. Remember when the Canucks acquired Luongo as our elite netminder? Well we don't have to get one. We already have one with the potential to be the next Luongo. Did any of you watch Utica's playoff run? If you did, you saw Markstrom make UNBELIEVABLE save after save. He carried this team on his shoulders to the Calder Cup Finals. No, he hasn't had success in the NHL. YET. But that's why we have Miller. Miller is going to do for Jacob what Lu did for Schnieder and develop him. Don't forget, Cory stunk too when he first hit the NHL scene. Miller is going to groom Markstrom into that number one goaltender. That's why we signed him in the first place, and many of you forget that. Eddie Lack never had and never will have elite potential in him. Markstrom does, and if he hits it, the Canucks are going to have one hell of a goaltender. Maybe even the next Luongo, or possibly better! Miller was never meant to lead us to the cup. Markstrom is. And if Markstrom fails, another name in the organization. Thatcher Demko. Is this going to be easy? No, not at all. The Canucks are gong to struggle, and they will struggle hard. I see next year going a lot like 2008 even. But, 2006-2008 is what turned the Canucks into the team that was one win away from a cup. All of you criticize Benning, but fail to realize the huge mess he was left, and is working valiantly to fix it. Bieksa for a 2nd was a great trade, because he was heavily declining. The Kassian trade looks bad at first glance, but look at it deeper. Kassian was a lazy player who was never going to become anything with us. Trading him opens up a spot in the top 6 for somebody even younger who can become something! Brandon Prust is a leader who can mentor these kids as well. Lack needed to go, and he had very little value thanks to the crowded market. Briesbrois has the makings to be another 3rd round steal for Vancouver though, and can become the next Willie Mitchell one day. That day is a long time away, but we've got time. The rebuild in 06 started with trading Bertuzzi, and ours started with Kesler. We got a great return given how handcuffed we were with the trade options. Bo Horvat could even be a better Kesler one day, and Jared McCaan... that kid has potential. So Canuck fans, be excited for the future we've got ahead. Horvat, Virtanen, McCaan, Baertschi, Gaunce, Markstrom, Clendenning, even Corrado and Shinkaruk. They're going to be something special one day. but we have to be patient with them. Rebuilds do not happen overnight. It is going to be long. It is going to be very painful. But, it is going to pave the way for an amazing core of young players who will become the heart of our team, the foundation of it. We do not need to tank either. The 2006-08 teams never did, and look where it got us. We can stay competitive, but we are still rebuilding. Have faith. The Sedin's, Burrows, Miller, etc. Are here to mentor our guys now while keeping us semi good so that these guys grow up in a good environment. It's going to be a long and very tough road, but stick it out. It's what being a fan is all about. Tough out the hard times. Calgary and Edmonton are gonna smack us around like they did in 06-08, and it's going to be tough to swallow, but we're going to be just as good in a few years time. Just be patient until then, and root for our boys now. Stick it out like true fans do, and cheer on our guys! GCG!! The naysayers will point out it was different because we had the twins in the system but our prospect pool is way deeper now than it was minus the twins and Kesler. People also forget that most people were ready to throw the twins under the bus before 2009. This is exactly why tanking did not work for the oilers for so many years. They had no one to groom them. And the miller point is right on....Veteran Goaltending is huge. A lot of goaltending is player tendencies and experience. Vets have books on players... Just like players do on goaltenders. I am a firm believer Schnieds would not have turned out how he did without Lou. I am excited for the future! Great post! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CANUCK-EXPRESS Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Great post. Hopefully this put some sense into all of the pessimist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bd71 Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 ugh........ I hate hearing how this team needs old veterans to teach young players on leadership. You are either born a leader or your not. Having vets around doesn't do crap when it comes to leadership but having them their as guides to being an NHLer. So save the teaching leadership bs.I agree. I hate all the talk about mentorship etc.Why is it assumed that a veteran will mentor a younger player? Or teach them how to lead?I just don't buy it. Ryan Miller isn't really known as the type to mentor younger players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apollo Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Ummm yes we are winning now. We'll win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tan Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 While I admire your optimism and desire to look at the positives, there are some main difference between the 2006 era and now. You had it right on the button, but your analysis went a little sidways The first part of your statement is true, but then you contract yourself by saying the Sedins are mentoring our young players. What young players? By the time our best prospects are regulars in the NHL the Sedins will most likely be retiring. You said that Naslund, Morrison, Linden and Ohlund helped mold the 2011 core, and yes they did but you have to realize that the Sedins, Kesler, Burrow and Bieksa were already established NHL'ers by 2006-07, not still developing in the minors or in junior. McCann, Cassels, Shinkaruk and Gaunce are still not reading to be NHL regulars so what are the Sedins mentoring? Horvat? That's not enough. Agreed. I don't mind tank for a one-season like Tampa for Stamkos style and then come right back. -- simply get a top 3 draft pick in 2016 mean while trade Brbata and Hamhuis for 2 more 1st rounder seems making more sense to me. This is where some Canucks fans are worried. We all understand that we need veterans to help mentor young players, but where are our young players? We traded away Kassian for a 31 year old, and while you can argue that frees up a RW spot that takes away a LW spot. You aren't subtracting any roster spots by trading away Kassian. We were able to stay competitive and get younger because we offloaded our assets, for example Bertuzzi, when their value was greatest. This re-tool your are trying to coin should have happened at the end of 2011-12 or atleast 2012-13 after the Lockout, and not now. That retool in 2006 was proactive while this one seems forced and almost like damage control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chayne Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 All I've read for the last week and a half has been nothing but negativity on this board, and it's pathetic. I know Benning's made a couple questionable moves, and the Canucks are in no position to win anything right now. But you guys are completely missing the point. The point isn't to win right now. Benning knows we can't. Linden knows we can't. Hell, even the owners know we can't. But that's not what we're trying to accomplish. Don't any of you get it? We're not winning NOW. We're rebuilding, albeit not your standard rebuild, but it's what we're doing whether you want to admit it or not. You know what, we've been in this exact same situation very recently too. TBT time, to 2006! In 2005-2006, the season right after the lockout, the Canucks tried loading up veteran talent to make a run at the Stanley Cup that year. Naslund, Bertuzzi, Morrison, Linden, Jovanovski, Ohlund, Richard Park, and Anson Carter to name a couple. The Canucks had a few younger players in place too. The Sedin's, Burrows, Kesler, Salo, and Bieksa to name a few. What happened that year? Well, the WCE, which had been our core for years, they declined quite heavily. Part of it was the Moore fiasco obviously, but it marked the end of our cup window with the vets. We missed the playoffs by a slim margin, but it was apparent that they were done. The Canucks went into rebuilding mode that off season. Thing was, the Canucks had young players in place already that could lead this team to possible greatness, and they knew it, so they didn't have to build through the draft. First order of business was to get a young goalie with elite potential. They brought in Luongo, giving up a huge piece of our core in Todd Bertuzzi. They started building a defensive first game until our younger players could start contributing offensively, and thus the beginning of a new era started. Naslund, Morrison, and Linden stayed and mentored the twins, Kesler, Burrows, etc. The Canucks brought in stay at home defenseman Willie Mitchell, while Mattias Ohlund helped groom our D core. We suddenly got a lot YOUNGER. What people forget was, this turn around did not happen overnight. In fact, there were a lot of growing pains. Luongo pretty much single handedly got us into the playoffs in 2006-07, and we missed all together in 2007-08. But our young core was getting progressively better, and it was showing. We didn't have to tank either, we stayed competitive in this time. The Sedin's became PPG players, Kesler became an amazing 2way player, Burrows found his offense, and Bieksa and Mitchell lead our D corps on the blue line. Nobody can forget 2008-09, almost a disastrous year. Naslund and Morrison left at free agency, and Linden retired, and the reigns were given to the Twins, Luongo, and Kesler as the new leaders on the team. They struggled a bit, but also played good too, until in January, where we hit an 8 game losing streak. AV was nearly fired, our season was nearly lost, and it looked bleak. What happened next... Alex Burrows scored short handed and snapped our skid, and suddenly we went on an insane tear and made the playoffs. The new core had finally found themselves. They had come together as the future of Vancouver hockey, and as we're all aware, eventually took the Canucks on one of the most memorable runs in BC history in 2011. They became the new core. This is exactly what Vancouver's doing now.... our window on our current core is closed, and we know that. The difference between now and then, is the Canucks do not have the young guns yet to lead this team like we did back then. The Sedins right now are mentoring our young players until their ready to take over the reigns, same goes for Burrows, Higgins, Hamhuis, etc. Miller too. Miller is a huge key factor actually, more then you guys give him credit for You're all so hung up on Lack that you all forget about one key player. Jacob Markstrom. Remember when the Canucks acquired Luongo as our elite netminder? Well we don't have to get one. We already have one with the potential to be the next Luongo. Did any of you watch Utica's playoff run? If you did, you saw Markstrom make UNBELIEVABLE save after save. He carried this team on his shoulders to the Calder Cup Finals. No, he hasn't had success in the NHL. YET. But that's why we have Miller. Miller is going to do for Jacob what Lu did for Schnieder and develop him. Don't forget, Cory stunk too when he first hit the NHL scene. Miller is going to groom Markstrom into that number one goaltender. That's why we signed him in the first place, and many of you forget that. Eddie Lack never had and never will have elite potential in him. Markstrom does, and if he hits it, the Canucks are going to have one hell of a goaltender. Maybe even the next Luongo, or possibly better! Miller was never meant to lead us to the cup. Markstrom is. And if Markstrom fails, another name in the organization. Thatcher Demko. Is this going to be easy? No, not at all. The Canucks are gong to struggle, and they will struggle hard. I see next year going a lot like 2008 even. But, 2006-2008 is what turned the Canucks into the team that was one win away from a cup. All of you criticize Benning, but fail to realize the huge mess he was left, and is working valiantly to fix it. Bieksa for a 2nd was a great trade, because he was heavily declining. The Kassian trade looks bad at first glance, but look at it deeper. Kassian was a lazy player who was never going to become anything with us. Trading him opens up a spot in the top 6 for somebody even younger who can become something! Brandon Prust is a leader who can mentor these kids as well. Lack needed to go, and he had very little value thanks to the crowded market. Briesbrois has the makings to be another 3rd round steal for Vancouver though, and can become the next Willie Mitchell one day. That day is a long time away, but we've got time. The rebuild in 06 started with trading Bertuzzi, and ours started with Kesler. We got a great return given how handcuffed we were with the trade options. Bo Horvat could even be a better Kesler one day, and Jared McCaan... that kid has potential. So Canuck fans, be excited for the future we've got ahead. Horvat, Virtanen, McCaan, Baertschi, Gaunce, Markstrom, Clendenning, even Corrado and Shinkaruk. They're going to be something special one day. but we have to be patient with them. Rebuilds do not happen overnight. It is going to be long. It is going to be very painful. But, it is going to pave the way for an amazing core of young players who will become the heart of our team, the foundation of it. We do not need to tank either. The 2006-08 teams never did, and look where it got us. We can stay competitive, but we are still rebuilding. Have faith. The Sedin's, Burrows, Miller, etc. Are here to mentor our guys now while keeping us semi good so that these guys grow up in a good environment. It's going to be a long and very tough road, but stick it out. It's what being a fan is all about. Tough out the hard times. Calgary and Edmonton are gonna smack us around like they did in 06-08, and it's going to be tough to swallow, but we're going to be just as good in a few years time. Just be patient until then, and root for our boys now. Stick it out like true fans do, and cheer on our guys! GCG!! I liked it! Well done not buying into the Vancouver based media view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxieMan98 Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Who was that burrows shortie against? If memory serves me correctly, was it Buffalo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steen Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Who was that burrows shortie against? If memory serves me correctly, was it Buffalo? Carolina. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jägermeister Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremyCuddles Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Kassian opens up a top 6 spot? He never held a top 6 spot with any regularity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mustapha Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 It's going to get better....but not before it gets worse. Canucks will be lucky to compete for a wild card spot, not because they are a horrible team, but because the division is way tougher now. Anaheim and LA have top end talent in their prime, Calgary has the strongest roster since before the Nieuwendyk trade and now Edmonton has completely overhauled their team top to bottom, including the addition of McDavid as the cherry on top of that win sundae. Canucks don't have the horses to get in this year, unless a lot of things go sideways for one of those teams listed above. In the old playoff system, maybe the Canucks sneak in, but with the way it is now, you need to beat your divisional opponents to get in. How many games do you see the Canucks winning against the like of LA and Anaheim? Even Calgary and Edmonton will be stiff competition, no more Dallas Eakins behind the Oilers bench. I would not be surprised if Oilers break out 80's style and murder the whole division, the forward depth on that team is beyond impressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxieMan98 Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Carolina. I knew it was an eastern team because I think it was on PPV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chayne Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 It's going to get better....but not before it gets worse. Canucks will be lucky to compete for a wild card spot, not because they are a horrible team, but because the division is way tougher now. Anaheim and LA have top end talent in their prime, Calgary has the strongest roster since before the Nieuwendyk trade and now Edmonton has completely overhauled their team top to bottom, including the addition of McDavid as the cherry on top of that win sundae. Canucks don't have the horses to get in this year, unless a lot of things go sideways for one of those teams listed above. In the old playoff system, maybe the Canucks sneak in, but with the way it is now, you need to beat your divisional opponents to get in. How many games do you see the Canucks winning against the like of LA and Anaheim? Even Calgary and Edmonton will be stiff competition, no more Dallas Eakins behind the Oilers bench. I would not be surprised if Oilers break out 80's style and murder the whole division, the forward depth on that team is beyond impressive. This was exactly what was said last year. Ana, LA, and SJ were too tough to beat. CDC also said we would be behind ARI. Then every stated, as they do every year, this could be EDM break out. Canucks were suppose to be fighting in the bottom 10. They overachieved. So whats the problem? Even if we are bottom 10, is that bad for a year or two? Maybe one of the so called unstoppables fumbles like LA did last year. Hell LA has so much internal problems I could see them having another bad year. I could see Cgy pulling the same thing Colorado did. I could see Edmonton pulling an Edmonton. This crazy negativity is.......crazy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nave Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Good post. Benning is not blowing up our current core, but setting up a transition into a new one. We might actually be in the top 1/3 in terms of prospects for the first time in I don't know how long, so there is a lot of reason to be optimistic. I think in 3 years we'll contend again, with 2016 being when we get truly competitive - next season will be tough though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popinjay Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Great post. Completely how I feel, you can just put it into words a lot more eloquently than I could! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaudette Celly Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 You said that Naslund, Morrison, Linden and Ohlund helped mold the 2011 core, and yes they did but you have to realize that the Sedins, Kesler, Burrow and Bieksa were already established NHL'ers by 2006-07, not still developing in the minors or in junior. McCann, Cassels, Shinkaruk and Gaunce are still not reading to be NHL regulars so what are the Sedins mentoring? Horvat? That's not enough. Actually, the Sedins just became ppg players in 05/06, and Bieksa, Kesler, and Burrows joined the Canucks in the same year. Burrows was a grinder pest and Kesler was a defensive checker only. NONE of those three were high draft picks and only Kesler was from the first round. Burrows wasn't even drafted. Today, we have one first rounder on the team and eight more in the system, all since 2011, a third round pick who's progressed into late first quality, and a number of other promising prospects. There are no guarantees, but this prospect pool is FAR superior to what we had back then, and that doesn't even count the possible late picks (like Bieksa) or undrafted (Burrows) that may develop into NHL players. Four or five of them will be coming in this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdgarM Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 A lot of people think there is this "magical formula" in winning championships. In todays NHL with the Cap system, teams are pretty evenly matched. Last year was a good example where LA missed the playoffs after winning the Cup the year before and Vancouver and Calgary were supposed to not make the playoffs at all. I believe its more of giving your team the best chance every year to do well in the playoffs. Forget Tanking, Retooling, Rebuilding etc. Every team has the same amount of money to spend on players and most spend right up to the Cap. It is where you divide that money is what makes the difference. Spread out the wealth to all of your 23 players or pay 4 or 5 the big bucks and fill the other positions with rookies or prospects for minimal amounts of money(these players are more easily accessable/attainable then the premier players). Chicago seems to have excelled in this practice. We have a top goalie, a sort of PMD top 4 Dman in Edler and top 4 Dman(Hamhuis who is getting up there in age)and for the top 6 forwards we have Vrbata and the Twins who are also getting up there in age. I see a few holes in our key players. So what do we do? We try to fill the gaps with mediocre players in hopes they will make up for our deficiencies in our top players which we DO NOT HAVE. So why is that other teams can stack their teams with talent such as Chicago,Anaheim and Pittsburgh with the same amount of cap space as everyone else? Because they are putting more money towards the players that are harder to attain and less to the ones that can be easily signed. You can say all you want about drafting but it all boils down to who you hire as your teams personel whether you draft them, trade for them or get them as a free agent. There is a reason our PP has sucked for a few years now. We don't have a 5 man unit that we can put together from our personnel and we definitely can't rummidge up a second line PP unit from what we have on the roster. You can say all you want that Weber's play is OK but I want more than that I want a legitimate PMD and that should be the number one priority. If that position is not filled, that seriously hinders our chances of success. Oh well thats my rant for the day it sure is tough to be a Canuck fan sometimes. We will wait and see what the new regime has in store I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vancanwincup Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 ugh........ I hate hearing how this team needs old veterans to teach young players on leadership. You are either born a leader or your not. Having vets around doesn't do crap when it comes to leadership but having them their as guides to being an NHLer. So save the teaching leadership bs. You never know your a leader until someone teaches you, you are a leader. All great leaders had mentors to help bring out their leadership potential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vancanwincup Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 A lot of people think there is this "magical formula" in winning championships. In todays NHL with the Cap system, teams are pretty evenly matched. Last year was a good example where LA missed the playoffs after winning the Cup the year before and Vancouver and Calgary were supposed to not make the playoffs at all. I believe its more of giving your team the best chance every year to do well in the playoffs. Forget Tanking, Retooling, Rebuilding etc. Every team has the same amount of money to spend on players and most spend right up to the Cap. It is where you divide that money is what makes the difference. Spread out the wealth to all of your 23 players or pay 4 or 5 the big bucks and fill the other positions with rookies or prospects for minimal amounts of money(these players are more easily accessable/attainable then the premier players). Chicago seems to have excelled in this practice. We have a top goalie, a sort of PMD top 4 Dman in Edler and top 4 Dman(Hamhuis who is getting up there in age)and for the top 6 forwards we have Vrbata and the Twins who are also getting up there in age. I see a few holes in our key players. So what do we do? We try to fill the gaps with mediocre players in hopes they will make up for our deficiencies in our top players which we DO NOT HAVE. So why is that other teams can stack their teams with talent such as Chicago,Anaheim and Pittsburgh with the same amount of cap space as everyone else? Because they are putting more money towards the players that are harder to attain and less to the ones that can be easily signed. You can say all you want about drafting but it all boils down to who you hire as your teams personel whether you draft them, trade for them or get them as a free agent. There is a reason our PP has sucked for a few years now. We don't have a 5 man unit that we can put together from our personnel and we definitely can't rummidge up a second line PP unit from what we have on the roster. You can say all you want that Weber's play is OK but I want more than that I want a legitimate PMD and that should be the number one priority. If that position is not filled, that seriously hinders our chances of success. Oh well thats my rant for the day it sure is tough to be a Canuck fan sometimes. We will wait and see what the new regime has in store I guess. I think people are forgetting about Utica, this franchise final can develop their players the right way! something that was missing for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.