alfstonker Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 2 hours ago, shiznak said: But playing guys who aren't 100% in meaningless games is fair? I'm not saying Subban deserve or doesn't deserve be on the main roster, but when the team is playing for nothing. It's best to rest up your players, who might be hampering with injuries (Hutton, Stecher, Tanev) and get some of the youngins a taste of the NHL life. Every single NHL team, does this to some degree, it isn't an uncommon thing. I never agree that any game in the league is meaningless. The key to a winning team is to keep your lines, once set, as constant as possible. If these players were injured, they don't need to play. They were either not that bad or desperate to play. Either way they wanted to be in the line up and no coach worth his salt would needlessly risk alienating players by benching players keen to play, unless their form sucked. When there are a lot of youngsters in the team you want to try to facilitate the gaining of confidence. To do that you need to give them the chance to build experience and to gel with their line mates and others in the team. The bottom line is that until Subban shows his coaches the kind of defensive abilities they are trying to coach into him it would not be good coaching nor good for the player or his team to reward him. As I said before, this is not a beer league. Spots have to be earned and fans who come up with stuff like "give the boy a few games, it won't do any harm" are either too invested in that player or haven't a clue about the realities of hockey in the NHL. Subban for me, has mis-read what it takes to get into the NHL. He seems to think all he has to do is score goals and look flashy. However if he looks at his job description he will probably find the word DEFENSE figuring on there somewhere and until he convinces the Utica coaches he CAN defend then he is at risk of being passed by other prospects who see the whole picture. (McEneny seems like a good example, a guy who has come out of nowhere and worked his ass off to impress the coaches) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfstonker Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 2 hours ago, Hairy Kneel said: I'm glad it's Coach Green deciding who to bring up and not WD anymore. If Green thinks the kid deserves a couple games I think Subban might get a cupofcoffee. Plus I don't think our PP will suck as bad as it did last year-- when a homeless man off the street had a better chance of scoring than our PP did last year. How do you know who it was, who decided, who to bring up? I would have thought that would have been a combination of Benning and the Utica coaches. After all surely the Utica coaches are the ones who know the players in form. I thought people were saying Doug Jarvie had responsibility for the PP. Has he left? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfstonker Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 On 7/28/2017 at 6:44 PM, 250Integra said: I hope we give this kid a shot on a team that is starving for offense from the blueline. In the past, we signed and played fringe NHLer's like Raphael Diaz and Yannick Weber for their "offensive abilities", yet we all knew their defense was severely lacking. It's not like this team is a cup-contending team, and we've given other rookies plenty of opportunities. I think he'll get at least one game on the Canucks this year. Are you seriously comparing a Stanley Cup Final defender to Subban? I think you will find both the players you mentioned could defend. Both have played over 200 NHL games. Suban's AHL record so far is 132 games played 72 points scored. Weber's AHL record was 155 games played 95 points scored. - I see no big difference other than Subban in that time is -17 while Weber was +17 We can split hairs as much as we want but one thing can't be denied and that is Subban will need to improve his defence before he can justify a call up to the NHL Diaz played 201 NHL games and scored 49 points Weber played 347 NHL games and scored 78 points Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairy Kneel Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 3 hours ago, alfstonker said: How do you know who it was, who decided, who to bring up? I would have thought that would have been a combination of Benning and the Utica coaches. After all surely the Utica coaches are the ones who know the players in form. I thought people were saying Doug Jarvie had responsibility for the PP. Has he left? It was WD's team right down to the burning embers. Sorry Stonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elvis15 Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 7 hours ago, shiznak said: But playing guys who aren't 100% in meaningless games is fair? I'm not saying Subban deserve or doesn't deserve be on the main roster, but when the team is playing for nothing. It's best to rest up your players, who might be hampering with injuries (Hutton, Stecher, Tanev) and get some of the youngins a taste of the NHL life. Every single NHL team, does this to some degree, it isn't an uncommon thing. But then you're ignoring the fact that Utica was in a chase for the playoffs and needed all the help they could get. We didn't do much to paper down anyone to give them extra help, so we definitely weren't going to start pulling players who are key components of their offence just to play in meaningless games with us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elvis15 Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 45 minutes ago, Hairy Kneel said: It was WD's team right down to the burning embers. Sorry Stonk He worked with the roster he had, yes, but it was Benning's say who got called up. Desjardins and Green both had input, but then that's no indication Green was better or worse than Desjardins in that department. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lock Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 5 hours ago, alfstonker said: How do you know who it was, who decided, who to bring up? I would have thought that would have been a combination of Benning and the Utica coaches. After all surely the Utica coaches are the ones who know the players in form. I thought people were saying Doug Jarvie had responsibility for the PP. Has he left? It seemed pretty apparent it was WD's decision. Countless interviews indicated that WD would ask Green about the players and keep in touch, but ultimately it would be WD's decision on who to bring up in the end. It makes the most logical sense too. Why would you have a coach living across the continent choosing who should be on your team? Why would Benning be doing it when he's not the coach? That would be silliness in itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
250Integra Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 5 hours ago, alfstonker said: Are you seriously comparing a Stanley Cup Final defender to Subban? I think you will find both the players you mentioned could defend. Both have played over 200 NHL games. Suban's AHL record so far is 132 games played 72 points scored. Weber's AHL record was 155 games played 95 points scored. - I see no big difference other than Subban in that time is -17 while Weber was +17 We can split hairs as much as we want but one thing can't be denied and that is Subban will need to improve his defence before he can justify a call up to the NHL Diaz played 201 NHL games and scored 49 points Weber played 347 NHL games and scored 78 points Aaron Rome was a Stanley Cup defender too.. It is no secret that he needs to improve his defense, but the same can be said about all the rookies that have been given a shot on our team. Each one of them has had some huge deficiencies in their defensive game. What I'm saying is he should get a look on this team, especially if we are hampered by injuries early on or our defense continues to be inefficient in producing any sort of offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeneedLumme Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 40 minutes ago, The Lock said: It seemed pretty apparent it was WD's decision. Countless interviews indicated that WD would ask Green about the players and keep in touch, but ultimately it would be WD's decision on who to bring up in the end. It makes the most logical sense too. Why would you have a coach living across the continent choosing who should be on your team? Why would Benning be doing it when he's not the coach? That would be silliness in itself. Actually, what is logical would be for WD to tell Benning what type of player he wanted, for Green to tell Benning how the various Comet players were playing/progressing and for Benning to choose which player to bring up. Obviously it's Benning's choice. Period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairy Kneel Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 Well tabula rasa with Subban and the new head coach here. I'm kinda hoping we don't need to call up Subban with all our new acquisitions to help our PP. But also I hope Subban forces the teams hand with continued development and excellent scoring again. Also we can trade older vets for draft picks and make room for young players to push for spots. (We'll be lucky to get one round of the playoffs in so development should be the focus) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 2 hours ago, Hairy Kneel said: It was WD's team right down to the burning embers. Sorry Stonk Later in the season, Green recommended McEneny over Subban as the better call up FWIW. Subban will likely get a cup of coffee if/when Stecher goes down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairy Kneel Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 4 minutes ago, J.R. said: Later in the season, Green recommended McEneny over Subban as the better call up FWIW. Maybe that's when Benning tipped his hand in favour of Green? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lock Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 1 hour ago, WeneedLumme said: Actually, what is logical would be for WD to tell Benning what type of player he wanted, for Green to tell Benning how the various Comet players were playing/progressing and for Benning to choose which player to bring up. Obviously it's Benning's choice. Period. From what I gather WD and Green were constantly talking. The more likely scenario would be WD telling Benning who he wanted to call up. So I disagree with you there. It's not going to be solemnly Benning's choice. Benning obviously could have a say, but a good GM lets the coach do their job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfstonker Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 4 hours ago, Hairy Kneel said: It was WD's team right down to the burning embers. Sorry Stonk So you have no idea who brought them up then but you have such a hate for WD you couldn't help yourself. It is the GM who decides who comes up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfstonker Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 2 hours ago, The Lock said: It seemed pretty apparent it was WD's decision. Countless interviews indicated that WD would ask Green about the players and keep in touch, but ultimately it would be WD's decision on who to bring up in the end. It makes the most logical sense too. Why would you have a coach living across the continent choosing who should be on your team? Why would Benning be doing it when he's not the coach? That would be silliness in itself. You have contradicted yourself there it seems. If WD asks the Utica coach who he can recommend for a spot he has got then it is in all likelihood Green who decides who is in form, after all he is the coach who sees them play and train. As I understand the set up WD would discuss a weakness/spot with the GM and the GM would take it up with the Utica coach, who in turn would give his report on who was fit to fill the spot and playing well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lock Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 Just now, alfstonker said: You have contradicted yourself there it seems. If WD asks the Utica coach who he can recommend for a spot he has got then it is in all likelihood Green who decides who is in form, after all he is the coach who sees them play and train. As I understand the set up WD would discuss a weakness/spot with the GM and the GM would take it up with the Utica coach, who in turn would give his report on who was fit to fill the spot and playing well. How have I contradicted myself exactly? Green can give recommendations of course, but the decision's going the be WD's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfstonker Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 2 hours ago, 250Integra said: Aaron Rome was a Stanley Cup defender too.. It is no secret that he needs to improve his defense, but the same can be said about all the rookies that have been given a shot on our team. Each one of them has had some huge deficiencies in their defensive game. What I'm saying is he should get a look on this team, especially if we are hampered by injuries early on or our defense continues to be inefficient in producing any sort of offense. No he was an injury fill in. Weber played 73 regular season games and 22 playoff games. I agree neither Weber nor Diaz were outstanding but in their time they were able to fight for and hold down a spot. Suburban is not there yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfstonker Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 14 minutes ago, The Lock said: How have I contradicted myself exactly? Green can give recommendations of course, but the decision's going the be WD's. You are splitting hairs in order to appear correct. Willie would have no idea who was in form and fit. Just say for example Green recommends two players, Willie I assume would pick the one he might know most about but the choice given to him is from Green. You made it seem like WD pulls the name of a player out of his ass. I also do not think JB is excluded from these discussions as he ultimately dictates the roster so it is natural he would be involved in who came up as it may have consequences for him i.e. waivers etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lock Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 7 minutes ago, alfstonker said: You are splitting hairs in order to appear correct. Willie would have no idea who was in form and fit. Just say for example Green recommends two players, Willie I assume would pick the one he might know most about but the choice given to him is from Green. You made it seem the WD pulls the name of a player out of his ass. I also do not think JB is excluded from these discussions as he ultimately dictates the roster so it is natural he would be involved in who came up as it may have consequences for him i.e. waivers etc. Dude. Willie would have an idea from talking with Green. He could have even been watching Utica's games. Likely was. I said no such thing about Willie "pulling a name out of his ass". I also have not said JB is excluded from these discussions. I have only said that it's WD's decision. Please stop putting words in my mouth and read what I'm saying at face value instead of trying to come up with false accusations. I have not done the same to you and it seems rather disrespectful on your part. Can we have a civil discussion please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfstonker Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 7 minutes ago, The Lock said: Dude. Willie would have an idea from talking with Green. He could have even been watching Utica's games. Likely was. I said no such thing about Willie "pulling a name out of his ass". I also have not said JB is excluded from these discussions. I have only said that it's WD's decision. Please stop putting words in my mouth and read what I'm saying at face value instead of trying to come up with false accusations. I have not done the same to you and it seems rather disrespectful on your part. I said "you made it seem" Anyway, I disagree, as I said I think Benning has the last word in a 3-way conversation. Can you quote any of these "interviews" you refer to above? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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