BBB?

[N7Nucks]

Show me some evidence that puts Quick in the elite category. I'm not interested in team stats like cups or wins or gaa.

Are you gonna remove the Conn Smyth as evidence too while you are at it?

[KeslerPlaysLikeACanadian]

Show me some evidence that puts Quick in the elite category. I'm not interested in team stats like cups or wins or gaa.

I'll say it again, but maybe for the last time. If you can't identify a great player when you watch them play, then there is no explaining it. If you watched the 2012 playoff and didn't see an elite goaltender then you straight-up have no idea. Period.

Perhaps you meant that he is sub-elite since then, and to that I way say that eliteness doesn't expire that quickly. There seems to be quite a few lifestyle problems down there, and the guy had an off year. But he accomplished something important the year before. I can't remember what it was. I think it was a GAA thing.

It's not about cup wins man. Wow. Spelled it out. You have a unique approach. Please write a book about it. Obviously the best goalie in the league would play for a garbage team. It's statistically obvious.

(Weird that you didn't reply to Lack's UFA status)

[Patchoball Cannons]

To be fair I think it's hard to judge him yet because he's working in a 3 year plan window sort of thing, but I don't agree with a few of his moves yet (we'll see if they pan out). He's building a toughness-first sort of team similar to the Bruins which I'm not sure will work in a more offensive NHL these days. We just saw the Tampa Bay Lightning and Blackhawks duke it out as the two most offensive teams in the SCF last season, the way of the tough defensive teams is no more - Cup champions these days need to be able to have offensive depth up front, score 3-4 goals a night and have a star defensive pairing with no real need for that #1 goalie.

I haven't been to pleased with Benning's work at our wings and defence. Goalie and center-wise, he's done fantastically. We have some brilliant two-way centers which is what you need in today's NHL to win in the playoffs. Gaunce, Horvat, Sutter, McCann and Cassels are all fantastic defensive centers who compare to Toews/Kopitar/Sharp etc. and they've shown that you need to play good defence and score clutch goals to win in the playoffs.

At wing, Benning has really shaken things up and I'm not sure if I agree. He had some brilliant 1st round picks and spent them on Virtanen and Boeser, two very similar players, while grabbing Baertschi (I liked this trade) and moving Kassian (not a fan of this move). While we did need some offensive flair on the wing with Jensen and Shinkaruk not really impressing, I don't think using our 6th overall pick for one was a good idea - we can find a physical 20 goal scorer just about anywhere through trades or UFA. A pick that high should have been spent on a future 1st line center like Nylander OR a future top pairing defenceman. Expectations should be 30 goals + physical play from Virtanen for being picked that high, because to be honest I think he would have gone around 10th-11th if Benning didn't take him.

Defence has been the biggest issue for Benning so far, which surprises me considering he had built such a fantastic one in Boston. We have Edler and Tanev as a top pairing which would be most Cup contending team's 2nd pairing. Hamhuis is still good for a top-4 defenceman, but that's it. Yannik Weber simply does not belong in the NHL and would be a 7th defenceman for most playoff teams, instead he's our 4th best guy for some bizarre reason and Benning has not addressed this! Our bottom pairing is surprisingly good now with Bartkowski's addition which I quite like, but he is a 5th or 6th defenceman at the very best.

Benning's biggest mistake was getting rid of, and not acquiring, any puck moving defencemen. He trades away Clendening for no good reason which leaves us with essentially 4 shutdown defencemen, 1 overall defenceman in Edler and 1 AHL puck mover in Weber. No one on our current blueline can take a heavy shot on goal and be good for 10+ goals in a season, and no one can make that beautiful stretch pass up the ice. Because of this, the Canucks are going to struggle to score not only on the powerplay without a true PP QB, but also struggle to get the puck out of their zone which will cost them defensively. Their offence is going to become far too one-dimensional (all up front based on the forwards, no defence shot to worry about) and they will struggle to score goals. We only really needed one top-4 puck moving defenceman to play with Hamhuis to have a decent defence and there were options (Franson, Ehrhoff, trade) but Benning sat on his hands where he really should have pressed hard for one.

That being said maybe he's waiting for a big 2016 draft, which I think he is, and that's when we'll judge him properly.

Weber scored 10 last year.

[Nuxfanabroad]

KPLAC, Hmm, nice of you to drop by. Getting deja vu here-we may have been down this path before. Kindly ignore my posting, & I'll return the courtesy.

Have a nice day, mate.

[Positive Canuck]

you don't want scarfassian in the room with kids coming up. good luck in MTL buds.

[Nuxfanabroad]

Nah, couldn't be bothered..later then.

[J.I.A.H.N]

I must say at first when Benning came in, I was kind of caught up in all his changes, but I have been wondering what GM's like Quinn, and Bowman, Torre, would have done in the Kesler and Kassian debacles........how would have they handled the "trade me to one team" attitude, or how they would have dealt with Kassian..........I just don't see them moving the players the same way........but that is all conjecture......so I guess we will just have to accept those moves.

I do have a problem with picking up Vey, only because Benning should have taken into account Vey's size, which in my opinion is his only draw back.......20 lbs heavier and he goes where he wants to...........now he is just a perimeter player...with some skill

Miller would have signed for less and in less years, but Bennings skill is in assessing talent, not contract negotiations......and that is very apparent.

I am ok with the signing of Dorsett and Sbisa...just [paid too much........again, others teams are paying less for equivalent players....how's that work?

Last but not least is letting Richardson and Matthais walk for nothing..............and not being able to make tough decisions, such as winning those meaningless games at the end of the season........that cost us!

In saying all that, someone mentioned that Benning is in the middle of a 3 year plan.......ok, let's see what happens! Just want to caution you that Edmonton took many years to recognize that their management was inept.......let us not make the same mistake if that is the case.......I am not sure that is the case........I am just saying!

[StraightFlush]

Are we talking Better Business Bureau or Bare Back Blow......

Anyways......in my experiences, you can only judge a man by what he has accomplished, not by what he hasnt.

This is a terrible thread, terrible first line to a thread, and I very much hope that the intelligent humans breed out...the....lesser...species.....

Yes I am quoting myself......

Let the man do his thing, Jim Benning, not BBBJ or whatever you call it

Stop feeding the ignorance and stupidity, because if you don't.they starve

Common sense

*edit. Phone put a 've

[ECKO Canuck]

I thought BBB was Baertschi-Bo-Burrows....?

[mpt]

Not concerned with any of your points; every move is a gamble, none were ridiculous, all made sense at the time

[MattJVD]

I came here hoping for a thread on the Better Business Bureau. I'm disappointed.

[SamJamIam]

Benning's Biggest Blunder? Thus far, that is.

For me, probably squandering a 2nd on Vey. He's frittered away a few picks, & we should be taking the 'shotgun-approach' on drafting young D. Would have been far better last yr to retain Santo & Schreds(hustling RH C's), thus using another selection on the back end. Try to find more Subban/Hutton's. Them 2 guys(Santo, Schredder) likely play 'bigger' than LV. We only needed a short bridge to our slew of emerging C's...

Sbisa contract? Has certainly garnered it's fair share of detractors. Sure don't like the stage this sets for future RFA negotiations. Hopefully this comparable is never used (file 13).

Kassian deal. Hard to believe it's the best we could obtain(he'll take the 5th, as well)

Lack return. Don't like it, compared with what other young 'tenders garnered. If Markstrom doesn't bail out Benning here, this one could get ugly in a big way.

A CDC sig used to quote: "It's easier to be critical, than correct." Which is pretty hard wisdom to deny. Could also be that setbacks occur(seemingly) more rapidly than payoffs come to fruition. With this in mind, some of JB's moves may positively outweigh the duds,(or some negatives noted here, reverse), thus, it's too early to judge, definitively..one way or the other.

In the end, it's a forum-all voices, enthusiastic, endorsing, or dissenting, should be able to stake a claim...

1) Look at all the votes up your post has

2) Contemplate your position

3) Gain some perspective

[blackpluto96]

I feel something needs to be said to address all the detractors of Bennings moves. First off lets get to the Eddie Lack deal. I would love to see what you would've been able to secure for Eddie Lack, bear in mind teams don't pay more for nice guys, or for people who are clever on twitter. Gm's rely on body of work and on pedigree. Lack was always a back up to Markstrom coming out of Sweden and last year marked the only time in their careers that Lack sat above Markstrom on a depth chart. Markstrom was the top goaltending prospect in the world a few years back and was unfortunately for him drafted by a team that has no clue on how to develop a goalie. They did not have a full time goalie coach to work with him, tried to rush him into the league with aterrible team infront of him and he failed. Conversely The Canucks have a great track record of developing goalies, and Markstrom getting a chance to work with two of the best in Rollie the goalie and Dan Cloutier has seen him get back on track with his development and could be a top 10 goalie in this league given a couple more years as an understudy to Ryan Miller.

As far as Vey is concerned he traded a late second round pick for a player that had proven himself at the pro level and was not going to get a chance with the team he was with. Late second round picks have a 50/50 chance statistically of being regular players at the NHL level, after 1 year in the big leagues your ready to write off Vey, seems a little early.

Nobody likes the Sbisa contract. It would be too high 5 years ago, but take a look at what other teams are paying Dmen and you quickly realise it's market value for 5-6th D men. With Sbisa pedigree (1st round pick) he is worth the risk of developing another player who was rushed into the league too early. He is only 25, skates well and is the most physical member of our D corps. Again I'll rely on a franchise that has proven it's ability to develop D men over all of the detractors. It will be a fantastic contract if he is able to become a 4th Dman on this team.

Kassian was traded for a proven leader at the NHL level, who shows young guys how to be a pro, not how to drink at 11 AM, and sniff blow at 11 PM. Seems like a good move considering we have the deepest prospect pool since coach V took over, and the last thing we need is our young talent following his lead.

We have to give time to see how things actually play out, but judging on how Benning has used his knowledge to place a few bets that Marksrtom,Vey,Sbisa and Prust will help this team moving forward more than Lack, Kassian, and a late second round pick will, I have full confidence in the man and none in all the detractors that seem to think they can run a team better with all of their wealth of experience in doing so.

Well said. For me, the explanation for the Kassian trade is simple: Addition by Subtraction.

[baumerman77]

I'll say it again, but maybe for the last time. If you can't identify a great player when you watch them play, then there is no explaining it. If you watched the 2012 playoff and didn't see an elite goaltender then you straight-up have no idea. Period.

Perhaps you meant that he is sub-elite since then, and to that I way say that eliteness doesn't expire that quickly. There seems to be quite a few lifestyle problems down there, and the guy had an off year. But he accomplished something important the year before. I can't remember what it was. I think it was a GAA thing.

It's not about cup wins man. Wow. Spelled it out. You have a unique approach. Please write a book about it. Obviously the best goalie in the league would play for a garbage team. It's statistically obvious.

(Weird that you didn't reply to Lack's UFA status)

Yes he played at an elite level for the 2012 playoffs. But that is just 20 games, far too small of a sample size to call him and elite goalie. He was above average back then at least for that season. I should note that I believe goaltending has a very small standard deviation ( I believe most goalies gather around the mean and that there are few consistently elite goalies).

Look at save percentage for example; of the 29 goalies who played over 2000 minutes 5v5 last season 25 of them were between 91.21% and 92.68%. Think about that 25 out of 29 goalies were separated by 1.47%. Because of this close cluster I think a team could easily sign an average goalie to an average cap hit in free agency and become a quality playoff team providing the rest of the team is good enough. Sure it is nice and optimal to have an elite goalie, but the aren't necessary.

I think people often use team stats (based on goals or wins) to measure goalies and it favorably biases goalies on good teams.

I didn't really comment on the Lack trade. If Benning would have traded Miller he could of: trading Lack too, signed Lack, or let him walk as a FA. I think Lack is probably an average goalie just like Miller, perhaps Miller is slightly better but that is inconsequential. What is important is that Miller takes up 6 mil. I would much rather Lack at 3 mil (or any average goalie for that matter) and then spend another 3 mil on another player.

[baumerman77]

Are you gonna remove the Conn Smyth as evidence too while you are at it?

Oh course. To win the Conn Smyth you have to play for a good team. In fact, you really need to play for one of the finalists and most commonly you need to play for the Stanley cup winning team. Not only that but the trophy is voted on in the middle of meaningful eliminations games. If a player shows up and plays very well in that one important game he can often sway the emotions of the voters.

The Conn Smyth is what it is; a trophy given out hastily from a very small pool of candidates.

[GB5]

I don't agree with the gist of this thread but I'll play along. I think the BBB was when Benning stated to the fans that there was interest on Miller at the draft for trades.

His honestly sparked fodder for the naysayers and second guessers who all think they have a better inside track on this team than the professionals do.

Other than that, a winner isn't built over night so I choose to be patient and support my team and with hold judgement unless it ever gets to a time where there seems to be no forward progression. The way things are going, it seems positive and unlike some of his predecessors, Benning has shown he is not married to his moves that don't pan out and is willing to cut ties as soon as possible.

[bobby-b]

?

[supermanbieksa]

I thought this would be a line-up topic that you wanted a line like.

Baerschi - Bo - Burrows

I actually don't like threads that only point out the bad things about someone/something but I'll play along.

It's too early to tell if Vey was a bad deal. Honestly I thought the trade was great when it was made. And I still believe Vey could develop into a good NHL-player.

Sbisa contract is bad but it will not really make any difference as our cap problems will not be very significant next year. And I do think the Garrison trade was good. Garrison wasn't the right fit here in Vancouver, maybe under Willie's leadership. But he didn't meet his expectations during his two years here. I honestly think Dorsett's contract is worse as we have players who could fill his role in our system. Who's younger and cheaper. We don't have that with Sbisa right now.

Agree, Kassian deal was horrible. But we don't know what's going on inside the locker room, maybe it was impossible to keep him around? I think Kassian should be abel to fetch more than an aging enforcer and a late round pick.

Agree with the Läck deal. He's been improving every year he's been in NA and I don't think he has reached his peak just yet. Could actually see him becoming an above average starter.

[Baggins]

Fair enough, Jazz. However, keep hearing of teams that carry 10 or 11 picks in a single draft. 2014/15/16, I felt we needed to aim for that approach.

Trading for Vey sped up the process of drafting then developing. It was a smart move and less of a gamble than using the pick as Vey had already enjoyed success in the AHL. Less than 30% of 2nd round picks manage to play 100 or more NHL games. And those that beat the odds don't necessarily go on to be impact players. Mason Raymond was a 2nd rounder and has over 500 NHL games played. Everybody wants a Lidstrom or Weber 2nd round home run pick but the fact is those are extremely rare.

Btw, this has already been beaten to death and into the afterlife here:

http://forum.canucks.com/topic/371542-canucks-four-biggest-non-mistakes-over-the-last-year/

[Kevin Biestra]

Baggins Baggins Baggins.