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[Discussion] Do Benning and Linden have what it takes to move the Sedins on time?


Ilya Mikheyev

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Honestly at this point, I'd ask them what they would want. They've done so, so much for the franchise, and well, they should get the final say in this. If they want to stay here, then let them. If they want to go win a cup, trade them off and reap the rewards.

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I have been thinking about this subject for sometime and was wondering is there any restriction on what is fair value for a player? By this I mean will the league allow the Canucks to pay each Sedin 2 or 3 million each on their next contract? Or is this seen as "cheating"?

i question this as , if the Sedins truely wanted to lift the cup then taking a huge reduction in payment would allow the Canucks to make a superb 2nd line and free up lots of cap to load up on first line talent. 

 

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I have been thinking about this subject for sometime and was wondering is there any restriction on what is fair value for a player? By this I mean will the league allow the Canucks to pay each Sedin 2 or 3 million each on their next contract? Or is this seen as "cheating"?

i question this as , if the Sedins truely wanted to lift the cup then taking a huge reduction in payment would allow the Canucks to make a superb 2nd line and free up lots of cap to load up on first line talent.

 

Good question. The Sedins really shouldn't be offered more than 2-3 M if they intend to stay Canucks past the end of 2018.

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Bieksa was barely our top 4 D. Sedins are still 1st line players.

Bertuzzi sucker punched a guy. His Canuck image was ruined.

Linden was traded and traded back.

But at one point Bieksa was a great top four defender. At one point Bertuzzi was a power forward without comparison.

The Sedins are first line players for this season, but in all honesty, that is pushing it. They are too old and have too many miles on them to carry this team beyond this season. Anyone who believes the contrary is wallowing in willful ignorance.

 

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I'm not gonna reply to every single post here, but I will reply to some common threads. 

1. "The Sedins are the last thing stopping the Canucks from a cup," 

- I don't mean the Canucks as they currently are. The Sedins make the current team better—I fully understand that. But do they make the Canucks better next time they're a contender? In 3 years? They might if they take tiny contracts. They might retire. They have declined, slown down or had career-ending or career-damaging injuries. 

2. "They've done a lot for Vancouver"

- The business of sports is to win. I'm a huge Sedin fan, thankful that we've been able to watch them for more than decade, especially when they brokeout as 1st liners, not playoff-disappearers like they were under Crow. But like another poster mentioned, these kind of trades can set you up for a long-time. As much as it might bring a tear to my eye to see them retire having only been Canucks, I'd rather reserve that tear for a Stanley Cup.

3. Who is gonna take on 14M?

- This is a good point. Between Frolik and Hamilton the Flames had 11 million in personnel changeover last year, the Pens had 11M between Fehr, Bonino and Kessel. Yes, 14M is a lot and unique, but trading the Sedins is gonna be a unique circumstance. There's also cap retention these days, and the Canucks could take on a tiny bit of their salary for the right assets. Or they could take on a crappy contract, like David Clarkson's. 

I think people underrate how important making the playoffs are for GMs and coaches sometimes. The Sedins going into next season give any team a guaranteed 2nd or 1st line. That's a huge rarity in received players. 

 

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IF such a scenario was agreed upon(twins & hierarchy), I'd think Ottawa might be a good fit. They've also got a young, up & coming collection of talent. Low-key market, where their kids could enjoy a similar school/social environment.

We'd have to take back lots of contract.

EG: Twins(we retain 3 mill on 1 contract) & Edler...(16 mill AAV outgoing)

Ott: Bobby Ryan, Zibanejad/Turris(take 1), Methot, 1st rounder..(15 mill received + 3 mill retained)

Over the long haul, it would be nice to have B. Ryan & 1 of these 2 younger C's, playing long after the twins retired, as well as an extra pick/ top prospect to bring along gradually.

Ottawa could market the Swedish-attack on their PP(like the old Wings), Karlsson & Edler on the points; twins up front.

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I too believe the Sedins deserve the right to decide in staying or going

They are both unselfish and giving, on and off the ice.

I would not be surprised if they would ask management what plan they have for the next 3 years and if they are  aggressively pursuing a cup, with them in those plans, and if they are told yes, I could see the Sedins offering to  take less than similar producing players to make it happen with them.

Jagr is still producing at 43 and the Sedins do not play a physical game, are still leading the team in fitness over younger stronger players, and they are so durable

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But at one point Bieksa was a great top four defender. At one point Bertuzzi was a power forward without comparison.

The Sedins are first line players for this season, but in all honesty, that is pushing it. They are too old and have too many miles on them to carry this team beyond this season. Anyone who believes the contrary is wallowing in willful ignorance.

 

People been saying this for years and where did they end up last season? 

You trade them next season and it wont give us a return that everyone hopes/thinks for. In fact, it sets the team back because no one on this team can handle Sedins' role. 

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People been saying this for years and where did they end up last season

You trade them next season and it wont give us a return that everyone hopes/thinks for. In fact, it sets the team back because no one on this team can handle Sedins' role. 

Out in the first round of the playoffs. Your point?

I don't think that the Sedins should be traded. From a legacy and lineage perspective, they should retire Canucks. But I am not going to piss in the wind and call it Dom Perignon either.

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This is one of the dumbest posts ever. 

Did Detroit trade away Lidstrom and Yzerman? Did Colorado trade away Sakic? Sedin's are at that level for our organization. Luongo's/Kesler's/Bieksa's have been dealt and rightfully so. Hamhuis/Vrbata/Higgins might be in the near future. But the Sedin's, you don't trade them away just to get some minuscule value back at the end of their careers after they've done everything and beyond for this organization, city, province, and community. They are the franchise and you do whatever they want. If they are comfortable staying under a secondary role while the youngsters take over (which is what they have said), you fulfill those words and commit to what they say. If they say they want out (which they've never said), you trade them. If they walk when FA's to go elsewhere, you let them. They are that special to us and that's the respect and loyalty they will be given and treated with.

 

...absolutely ridiculous topic smh

I don't think it's "absolutely ridiculous," a lot of teams trade aging superstars to try to set themselves up for the future.

As for the comparables, Yzerman and Lidstrom's Red Wings showed no signs of needig a "transition" or "rebuild." Plus, the Sedins are elite players, can you really put them in the same category as Yzerman or Sakic?

Yzerman's NHL-career award list:

- Canada Cup Champion 83/84 - Hockey Hall of Fame 09/10 - IIHF Hall of Fame 13/14 - NHL All-Rookie Team 83/84 - NHL All-Star Game 83/84, 87/88, 88/89, 89/90, 90/91, 91/92, 92/93, 96/97, 98/99, 99/00 - NHL Contribution to U.S. Hockey (Lester Patrick Trophy) 05/06 - NHL First All-Star Team 99/00 - NHL Most Points Playoffs 97/98 - NHL MVP Selected by NHLPA (Ted Lindsay Award) 88/89 - NHL Sportsmanship Award (Bill Masterton Trophy) 02/03 - NHL Stanley Cup Champion 96/97, 97/98, 01/02 - NHL Stanley Cup MVP (Conn Smythe Trophy) 97/98 - NHL Top Defensive Forward (Frank J. Selke Trophy) 99/00 - Olympic Gold Medal 01/02 - U20 WJC Bronze Medal 82/83 - World Championship All-Star Team 89/90, 88/89 - World Championship Best Forward 89/90 - World Championship Most Points 89/90 - World Championship Silver Medal 88/89, 84/85.

Sakic's

Hockey Hall of Fame 12/13 - NHL All-Star Game 89/90, 90/91, 91/92, 92/93, 93/94, 95/96, 97/98, 99/00, 00/01, 01/02, 03/04, 06/07 - NHL All-Star Game MVP 03/04 - NHL Best Plus/Minus (Bud Light Trophy) 00/01 - NHL First All-Star Team 00/01, 01/02, 03/04 - NHL Gentleman Conduct (Lady Byng Trophy) 00/01 - NHL Most Game Winning Goals 00/01 - NHL Most Goals Playoffs 00/01, 95/96 - NHL Most Points Playoffs 00/01, 95/96 - NHL Most Valuable Player (Hart Trophy) 00/01 - NHL MVP Selected by NHLPA (Ted Lindsay Award) 00/01 - NHL Player of the Month 00/01 - NHL Player of the Week 00/01, 00/01 - NHL Stanley Cup Champion 95/96, 00/01 - NHL Stanley Cup MVP (Conn Smythe Trophy) 95/96 - Olympic All-Star Team 01/02 - Olympic Best Forward 01/02 - Olympic Best Plus/Minus 01/02 - Olympic Gold Medal 01/02 - Olympic Most Valuable Player 01/02 - Triple Gold Club 01/02 - World Championship Silver Medal 90/91 - World Cup Gold Medal 03/04 - World Cup Runner Up 95/96.

 Henrik's

NHL All-Star Game 07/08, 10/11, 11/12 - NHL First All-Star Team 09/10, 10/11 - NHL Most Assists 09/10 - NHL Most Assists Playoffs 10/11 - NHL Most Points (Art Ross Trophy) 09/10 - NHL Most Valuable Player (Hart Trophy) 09/10 - Olympic Gold Medal 05/06 - World Championship All-Star Team 12/13 - World Championship Bronze Medal 98/99, 00/01 - World Championship Clinching Goal 12/13 - World Championship Gold Medal 12/13 - World Championship Top 3 Player on Team 12/1

Putting the Sedins into a category with Sakic and Yzerman is more ridiculous then talking about them as potential tradeable players. 

Sakic and Yzerman are two of the best to ever lace-up.  

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Will Jim Benning and the Canucks’ brass have what it takes to move the Sedins this off-season?

Everyone watched as Jay Feaster waited too long to move the greatest player in Calgary history, Jarome Iginla and longtime franchise cornerstone, goalie Mikka Kiprusoff.


Although Iginla still managed to put up high point totals, his age became a concern and his contract status shifted his value from a multi-year investment to a rental player.

As Eric Francis puts it “Ask almost anyone…around the NHL and they’ll tell you the Calgary Flames waited at least a year too long before trading Jarome Iginla.”

In the end, Feaster landed a conditional 1st and two mid-level prospects, one who has now played 8 NHL games and one now 25 year old who plays in the DEL (Germany’s top hockey league). Calgary ended up with the 1st rounder, but because they traded Iginla to such a high-level team, it was a late first rounder that has turned into Emile Poirier, who might end up being a serviceable NHLer eventually.

For Kiprusoff, Feaster landed nothing as he decided to retire after a poor performance.

Not only does a failure to land solid assets create a longer rebuilding process, regardless of what kind of route the team takes to rebuild, it also makes the changing of the guard more difficult.

The Canucks have their own example in Markus Naslund. Naslund was a franchise player during the Canucks’ West Coast Express era and served as Captain.

As he slowed down, Nonis opted not to move him. He slowly declined. As a Captain, he was not a loud leader, but a silent one who led by his dynamic offensive play on the ice. Without that, there was a leadership vacuum and the Canucks failed to make the playoffs in 2 of his last 3 seasons. There was also zero progress on building toward the future as Nonis failed to acquire future assets for the aging star and continued to sign project players to fill holes.

When Gillis came a board, Naslund was no longer under contract, so he let him walk and the Canucks, clearly led by the Sedins and supported by fresh newcomers or players in new roles like Pavol Demitra (RIP), Ryan Kesler and Mats Sundin, returned to the playoffs and built a foundation that would make them to the SCF.

Near the end of the WCE era, there were also implications about a dressing room divide between Bertuzzi and the WCE and what would become the Sedin-era.

The Canucks face issues with similarities to both the Nonis Canucks and Feaster Flames.

The Sedins are still putting up good numbers, can still control the pace of the game and still have a few years left in the NHL, and also on their contracts.

They won’t be moved this year, and it doesn’t make sense to move them. They are still the leaders, they’re going to be crucial in showing many young players the ropes, just like Naslund did for them in their early careers, and the Canucks want to build around success, not a full-tilt rebuild like the Oilers or pre-Crosby Penguins.

But in the off-season or at the draft, they won’t be old rental players. They’ll have 2 full seasons left on their contracts and teams will have opportunity to move around cap space for them—especially with a potential increase in cap spending.

Horvat, Sutter, McCann are all showing that they’re better than 4th line centers this year, and with another season, summer and perhaps playoff under their belts, none of them will develop in that role going forward.

There’s a youth transition happening, from being led by the Sedins to being led by a group of younger players like Bo Horvat, Chris Tanev and the rise of Ben Hutton. With character guys like McCann and Virtanen getting experience this year, it will continue to shift.

Would the departure of the Sedins leave the Canucks as non-playoff contenders?

Not necessarily. With a rising cap, a few ending contracts, especially those of Vrbata and Hamhuis, the space created by the Sedins, Benning would have some ability to replace their offense.

Even if it’s not Lucic, there’s going to be other UFAs like Ladd and Eriksson who could replace some of the lost offense. Plus, the Sedins could land a top-2 defenseman or a top-6 forward, or a blue-chip prospect ready to make the jump.

What is becoming clearer is that Jim Benning and Trevor Linden are creating a team in a similar mold to the Canucks they were part of in the late 80s and early-to-mid 90s. Fast, hard work ethic, intense, lots of Western Canadians who want to bring the cup to Vancouver/Canada and are willing to go to the dirty areas to do so. Their bringing in players with connections to Desjardins and Green who are both former WHL coaches, and sometimes players who they’ve coached against—like Brandon Sutter.

Another hint at their direction was when they took hometown WHLer Jake Virtanen over Fleury, Nylander or Ehlers. I’m happy with that pick, but it also signaled a specific direction as many had Virtanen ranked after those three.

The Sedins, unfortunately, don’t fit the mold of the future anymore. Yes, they’re hard workers, but they’re part of the last group of Canucks. Many of the key pieces from the pre-Benning era have already been moved out: Kevin Bieksa, Ryan Kesler, Alain Vigneault, Rick Bowness, Jason Garrison, Zach Kassian, Brad Richardson.

As Lyle Richardson, of the Hockey News observed, trading the Sedins could "spark" the rebuild and though they said they would rather finish their careers with the Canucks, they did not outright reject the notion of waiving their NTCs. 

And next off-season is the moment before the scale starts to tilt toward an Iginla or Kiprusoff ending, rather than one that brings in the future.

But with all the Sedins have brought to the franchise and to the community of Vancouver, along with being former teammates of Linden, will Benning and co. have what it takes to move two players who help keep their jobs safe?

 

 

You suck. Your retard. Your stupid.

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I don't think it's "absolutely ridiculous," a lot of teams trade aging superstars to try to set themselves up for the future.

As for the comparables, Yzerman and Lidstrom's Red Wings showed no signs of needig a "transition" or "rebuild." Plus, the Sedins are elite players, can you really put them in the same category as Yzerman or Sakic?

Yzerman's NHL-career award list:

Sakic's

 Henrik's

Putting the Sedins into a category with Sakic and Yzerman is more ridiculous then talking about them as potential tradeable players. 

Sakic and Yzerman are two of the best to ever lace-up.  

nice job cherry picking what I said and taking it completely out of context lol

"Did Detroit trade away Lidstrom and Yzerman? Did Colorado trade away Sakic? Sedin's are at that level for our organization."

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