Trader Jim: trades once viewed as terrible have turned out great

[Xbox]

I never understood the hate he got for his moves. Aside from the Kesler trade, his trades have been pretty solid. Cant do much when you only have 1 trade partner.

[Quoted]

I never understood the hate he got for his moves. Aside from the Kesler trade, his trades have been pretty solid. Cant do much when you only have 1 trade partner.

Some people have very unreasonable expectations around how easy it is to make trades as well as overvaluing Canucks assets.

 

[elvis15]

Look no further than McCann, Sbisa (and Dorsett).

Full value for Kesler - who's struggling a lot and he was put on the top line.

Gotta love hindsight, eh? Even if you forget the fact that Bonino required an upgrade after only one year here and Sbisa was not good at all last year (the jury's out this year, currently injured but hasn't been a liability), we got the worse of two first round draft picks Anaheim had to offer and certainly couldn't plan on A). McCann dropping to us to begin with and B). him doing as well as he has as early as he has.

We knew Kesler wasn't going to be able to go beast mode forever, and it was a forced deal so our value was reduced there, but it's just one more deal where the value didn't seem to be equal coming back to what was going out. If Kesler was an open market piece he would have fetched much more.

But, let's stick with the narrative that Benning was a sorcerer all along and knew that'd happen. Still doesn't explain him dropping the ball on Vey, or Clendening, or anything else. Hindsight isn't as kind there.

[The Lock]

I never understood the hate he got for his moves. Aside from the Kesler trade, his trades have been pretty solid. Cant do much when you only have 1 trade partner.

I've always liked his trades, even when they happened. I was happy we were actually seeing change in the locker room rather than "waiting" for the "right" trade to come along like the past 2 GMs.

The overall picture is more important than the value you get back each trade. If you only focus on each trade individually and expect equal value, you'd be lucky to create a good team in my opinion.

[hatedkid666]

People thought Einstein was an idiot before they realized his genius

[HC20.0]

I was one of thd very few Benning supporters when all these moves were made, and I'm glad people are realizing there is more to a trade then points and the name on the back of the jersey. Benning knew exactly what he was doing by getting rid of these players, and bringing in guys like Prust and Sutter. Added solid players, as well as leadership.

[The Lock]

But, let's stick with the narrative that Benning was a sorcerer all along and knew that'd happen. Still doesn't explain him dropping the ball on Vey, or Clendening, or anything else. Hindsight isn't as kind there.

I've said this in another thread, but the value of 2nd rounders is grossly overvalued on CDC. The chance of Vey making it to the NHL was better than the chance of a 2nd rounder making it, so Benning pulled the trigger. It doesn't mean either will be a success.

I don't care much for the sorcerer remark either, but I'd rather be hedging risk if it means we get a shot at a potentially good player in the future (and yes, Vey counted and still counts as having potential).

I think the main reason why people want us to keep the 2nd rounder is for the sheer excitement of drafting someone and then over-hyping that draft pick like it's the next big thing. Yet, Benning, the same person who's drafting this draft pick and who's good at drafting, felt this prospect he traded for was a better chance. Let me also stress the word "chance", meaning not guaranteed. 

[elvis15]

I've said this in another thread, but the value of 2nd rounders is grossly overvalued on CDC. The chance of Vey making it to the NHL was better than the chance of a 2nd rounder making it, so Benning pulled the trigger. It doesn't mean either will be a success.

I don't care much for the sorcerer remark either, but I'd rather be hedging risk if it means we get a shot at a potentially good player in the future (and yes, Vey counted and still counts as having potential).

I think the main reason why people want us to keep the 2nd rounder is for the sheer excitement of drafting someone and then over-hyping that draft pick like it's the next big thing. Yet, Benning, the same person who's drafting this draft pick and who's good at drafting, felt this prospect he traded for was a better chance. Let me also stress the word "chance", meaning not guaranteed. 

I agree on the sorcerer remark and understand it's not everyone going that far (even if it's the OP) but then also point out how people want to use a late first rounder as proof that Benning has done well. There isn't a big drop in probability to get an NHL player from that to those 2nds. 

Sure, that first turned into McCann, but we don't have a bunch of 1st overall studs in the pipeline or big trade pieces we can leverage to get the #1 D-man everyone wants or to replace the Sedins when they leave. We need to maximize all the value we can to not end up with a major lull once our 2011 core has all moved on. Even using our 2nd rounders to good effect matters.

I'm not saying they all have to be clear wins, but we shouldn't be losing on a majority of them either - even a little each time adds up and makes Benning's job harder.

[Dazzle]

Gotta love hindsight, eh? Even if you forget the fact that Bonino required an upgrade after only one year here and Sbisa was not good at all last year (the jury's out this year, currently injured but hasn't been a liability), we got the worse of two first round draft picks Anaheim had to offer and certainly couldn't plan on A). McCann dropping to us to begin with and B). him doing as well as he has as early as he has.

We knew Kesler wasn't going to be able to go beast mode forever, and it was a forced deal so our value was reduced there, but it's just one more deal where the value didn't seem to be equal coming back to what was going out. If Kesler was an open market piece he would have fetched much more.

But, let's stick with the narrative that Benning was a sorcerer all along and knew that'd happen. Still doesn't explain him dropping the ball on Vey, or Clendening, or anything else. Hindsight isn't as kind there.

Well, you're also relying on hindsight to justify why Benning can't get 'full value' for his trades.

McCann is luck that he's been as good as he is. I wasn't so sure about him as a pick when there were other good players available at the time - but it shows that Benning knows more about players than we normal people do. To not admit that Benning was lucky is being dishonest.

You just admitted why Kesler didn't garner full value - did you not believe that other GMs thought the same thing? Kesler limited our trade partners (he exercised his right as per his contract).

Saying that Kesler is more valuable on the open market is completely irrelevant to what you've been trying to argue; a lot of players would also be valuable on the open market.  But let's assume that Kesler was available on the market - you would be buying him using money - as opposed to trading him with draft picks (or other players). Again, the point you raise about him having more value as a UFA is moot. Furthermore, there was little evidence to suggest that Kesler was on a full blown 'decline' like he's showing now; he still produced decent numbers in his final year.

[homersexual]

Where are last years stats?

[UFCanuck]

I really don't understand why some people think they know what the real market value for a guy like Lack or Bieksa or Bonino. I'll ask  you guys one last time. Do you answer the phone for a NHL organisation when it rings? CDC always overrates our players.

I would have been happy with getting a 3rd for Lack and Bieksa combined. Needless assets that had little value.

Bonino was a boring player. No hits, no aggressiveness and the same with Clendening. 

It was a great summer as far as I'm concerned.

[Kevin Biestra]

I don't really know what the author means by "suspicious" in this context.

[Nuxfanabroad]

Haven't read all comments, but it's still too early to analyze most trades conclusively.

Subsequent moves(due to cap space), & overall team performance should also be considered.

Finally, you always are stuck analyzing this- becaues 'this' is what happened. You never get to compare it to 'that'-however good that alternative sounds..as then you're speaking in hypotheticals.

Say we kept Schreds/Santo & drafted McKeown instead? Or perhaps traded Edler at one time, or another.

Overall, the performance of the team(& depth in prospects), gives fans plenty of reason to project positively.

[Robongo]

The only deal I didn't like at first was the Kes deal and he fixed my complaint by trading Bonino for something useful.

He had to hit the first rounder out of the park and boy did he do that.

[messier's_elbow]

I admit i hated the Kassian trade so Jim proved me wrong on that one. I was livid for the return we got for Kesler until we drafted Mccann at 24th then I was a lot happier. I liked the Suter trade and defended it quite often on these boards. Vey trade sucked and Baertchi looks to be a decent top 6 guy so that one looks ok so far. Hes definitely good at drafting.

[The Bookie]

I've always liked his trades, even when they happened. I was happy we were actually seeing change in the locker room rather than "waiting" for the "right" trade to come along like the past 2 GMs.

The overall picture is more important than the value you get back each trade. If you only focus on each trade individually and expect equal value, you'd be lucky to create a good team in my opinion.

Yes Yes, this. The Bigger Picture.

I'd add something I've theorized about in past threads, that there's an element of reparations in his early trades. We know now that Gillis was not very respected around the league - possibly starting with the fact that he was a former player agent, but more importantly due to his attitude during the 2011 playoffs. I think other GMs and management in general saw how this carried over into his trading philosophy, trying to 'win' every trade.

I think Jim is just expanding on his previous reputation around the league - that of an honest, down to earth scout-at-heart. Teams will be more likely to call him inquiring about players and prospects, knowing he'll give them his thoughts and they can hopefully work out an equal value trade.

His basic philosophy around trades seems to be catering them so both teams come out better. That's probably a difficult pill to swallow for the hardcore armchair GM's, but it's a much more realistic way of doing business.

[theminister]

Gotta love hindsight, eh? Even if you forget the fact that Bonino required an upgrade after only one year here and Sbisa was not good at all last year (the jury's out this year, currently injured but hasn't been a liability), we got the worse of two first round draft picks Anaheim had to offer and certainly couldn't plan on A). McCann dropping to us to begin with and B). him doing as well as he has as early as he has.

We knew Kesler wasn't going to be able to go beast mode forever, and it was a forced deal so our value was reduced there, but it's just one more deal where the value didn't seem to be equal coming back to what was going out. If Kesler was an open market piece he would have fetched much more.

But, let's stick with the narrative that Benning was a sorcerer all along and knew that'd happen. Still doesn't explain him dropping the ball on Vey, or Clendening, or anything else. Hindsight isn't as kind there.

frack hindsight...they all looked understable from the get go. 

[elvis15]

Well, you're also relying on hindsight to justify why Benning can't get 'full value' for his trades.

McCann is luck that he's been as good as he is. I wasn't so sure about him as a pick when there were other good players available at the time - but it shows that Benning knows more about players than we normal people do. To not admit that Benning was lucky is being dishonest.

You just admitted why Kesler didn't garner full value - did you not believe that other GMs thought the same thing? Kesler limited our trade partners (he exercised his right as per his contract).

Saying that Kesler is more valuable on the open market is completely irrelevant to what you've been trying to argue; a lot of players would also be valuable on the open market.  But let's assume that Kesler was available on the market - you would be buying him using money - as opposed to trading him with draft picks (or other players). Again, the point you raise about him having more value as a UFA is moot. Furthermore, there was little evidence to suggest that Kesler was on a full blown 'decline' like he's showing now; he still produced decent numbers in his final year.

I'm only using more hindsight as a counter point to the argument already being put forth that Kesler's doing poorly, etc. Bonino seemed like a good, affordable piece, but Sbisa wasn't a piece that inspired confidence at that point even and we got the worse of Anaheim's available 1sts. That was my argument at the time and while I understood Benning's hands were tied it was just one move in a sea of moves where we seemed to lose.

I am admitting there is a significant element of luck in the McCann pick. That he fell to us alone is luck, it's a matter of probability though that surprises that he'd be doing so well so early in his young career.

And I didn't mean Kesler as a UFA, I meant having at least a number of other teams we could involve in trade talks. If he just waived his NTC and we had open bidding on him, the value would have certainly been more. But I stated I know that wasn't the case and that's why it was less - but even then, Anaheim had strong interest and we couldn't upgrade on at least one of the pieces included.

[theminister]

I agree on the sorcerer remark and understand it's not everyone going that far (even if it's the OP) but then also point out how people want to use a late first rounder as proof that Benning has done well. There isn't a big drop in probability to get an NHL player from that to those 2nds. 

Sure, that first turned into McCann, but we don't have a bunch of 1st overall studs in the pipeline or big trade pieces we can leverage to get the #1 D-man everyone wants or to replace the Sedins when they leave. We need to maximize all the value we can to not end up with a major lull once our 2011 core has all moved on. Even using our 2nd rounders to good effect matters.

I'm not saying they all have to be clear wins, but we shouldn't be losing on a majority of them either - even a little each time adds up and makes Benning's job harder.

I'm seriously surprised on your view on this. Look at the score card objectively. Losing in a majority? Prove that. 

Both the Baertschi and Pedan trades are clear wins. 33%for 2nds and 15% for 3rds. Both eclipses that value easily. You can criticize the Vey trade but a 53rd overall pick had less than  a 20% chance of playing 200 nhl games. Vey is likely to eclipse that.

Where are you getting this 'majority?'

[elvis15]

I'm seriously surprised on your view on this. Look at the score card objectively. Losing in a majority? Prove that. 

Both the Baertschi and Pedan tested are clear wins. 33%for 2nds and 15% for 3rds. Both eclipses that value easily. You can criticize the Vey teade but a 53rd overall puck had less than  a 20% chance of playing 200 nhl games. 

Whete are you getting this 'majority?'

Pedan's a capable AHL'er who may yet turn into at least a depenable NHL'er. Baertschi I would have liked to move a 3rd for instead of a 2nd but that's marginal difference. I liked both (and still do) but that's two out of a number of deals.

Lack and Bieksa having other trades rumoured (both with San Jose, we can't know for sure they were offered but it's still out there) for better returns than the ones we got. Miller being in play but still choosing to move Lack. Forsling to Clendening to a part of the Sutter deal. Garrison to a 2nd to Vey. Kassian plus a pick for Prust and his larger cap hit.

Benning has a vision he wants to put in place, and I'm not saying all are bad deals to make this happen, but I don't think he's careful enough with the assets he has to be able to turn it all into the top end pieces we really need.