Second Line Woes

[captaincowbasher]

If the Blue Jackest would take a deal like Edler + Horvat for Johansen would you do it? Johansen is a 60-70 point guy and would be the perfect second line center that would take Hank's spot when he retires. Keep in mind we have McCann and Sutter, and Cassels in the sysytem.

[Rush17]

No I wouldn't.  Horvat's going to be an elite top 6 C and Edler is our best d man arguably a good 2nd or 3rd on a very deep team.  When Edler plays like he did last nite tho he looks more like a #1 d man.  Just need to get more consistancy and fight out of Edler.  I could honestly see Edler retiring as a canuck.

 

Thats just my sense tho. I'm sure many others would disagree.  If we had the D depth maybe but we unfortunately are short on quality D and d prospects.

[Kevin Biestra]

That's a question that makes me think.

I would definitely trade Horvat straight up...and Horvat with a sweetener.  But Horvat is going to be making peanuts for a few years to come, and it will kind of be a Bonino for Sutter type thing where we are giving away a player with high value relative to his salary.

But Johansen is already at where Horvat's top end is if things work out.  Also, I'd need to be reasonably sure he was going to stay long term with the Canucks.

This is a very 50/50 proposition to me.  Not sure where I fall on it.

[Kevin Biestra]

3 minutes ago, Rush17 said:

No I wouldn't.  Horvat's going to be an elite top 6 C and Edler is our best d man arguably a good 2nd or 3rd on a very deep team.  When Edler plays like he did last nite tho he looks more like a #1 d man.  Just need to get more consistancy and fight out of Edler.  I could honestly see Edler retiring as a canuck.

 

Thats just my sense tho. I'm sure many others would disagree.  If we had the D depth maybe but we unfortunately are short on quality D and d prospects.

That is such a bold prediction from the evidence we have seen thus far with Horvat.

I'm not even certain that he will be a LEGITIMATE top-six forward, much less an elite one.

I'm sure he'll be a valuable contributor to an NHL roster, but there's a very reasonable chance he'll top out at being a pretty good third-line center.

[MeanSeanBean]

No. In a few years horvat will be the better all around player. He may lack some offense but overall superior.

[Hortankin]

I wouldnt trade Horvat. Maybe:

 

To clb:

Virtanen

Gaunce

Subban

3rd

 

To van:

Johansen

[Hortankin]

I dont really like being that guy, but shouldnt this be in the proposal section? Its more of a trade than a canucks talk kind of thread

[hlinkas wrister]

8 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

That is such a bold prediction from the evidence we have seen thus far with Horvat.

I'm not even certain that he will be a LEGITIMATE top-six forward, much less an elite one.

I'm sure he'll be a valuable contributor to an NHL roster, but there's a very reasonable chance he'll top out at being a pretty good third-line center.

This right here. Quite a stretch to predict a 20 year old Horvat could one day be as good as Ryan Johansen.

[alfstonker]

26 minutes ago, Rush17 said:

No I wouldn't.  Horvat's going to be an elite top 6 C and Edler is our best d man arguably a good 2nd or 3rd on a very deep team.  When Edler plays like he did last nite tho he looks more like a #1 d man.  Just need to get more consistancy and fight out of Edler.  I could honestly see Edler retiring as a canuck.

 

Thats just my sense tho. I'm sure many others would disagree.  If we had the D depth maybe but we unfortunately are short on quality D and d prospects.

As I said on another thread, I doubt that very much.

He hasn't high end skill to be a Sedin or a Domi and he lacks the grit, pushback of a Doan, Brown, or Giroux. He is still young but what I see out there is someone who doesn't have enough of one thing or the other to be a winner. He is the forward equivalent of Chris Tanev. He's a good soldier but no leader and definitely not elite imo.

[Crabcakes]

31 minutes ago, captaincowbasher said:

If the Blue Jackest would take a deal like Edler + Horvat for Johansen would you do it? Johansen is a 60-70 point guy and would be the perfect second line center that would take Hank's spot when he retires. Keep in mind we have McCann and Sutter, and Cassels in the sysytem.

All things equal, yes.

But.....

The loss of Edler without anybody to take his place would screw the Canucks.

The Blue Jackets would want more.  Johansen is a legit 1C.  They're like legit 1D's pure gold.

[Crabcakes]

3 minutes ago, alfstonker said:

As I said on another thread, I doubt that very much.

He hasn't high end skill to be a Sedin or a Domi and he lacks the grit, pushback of a Doan, Brown, or Giroux. He is still young but what I see out there is someone who doesn't have enough of one thing or the other to be a winner. He is the forward equivalent of Chris Tanev. He's a good soldier but no leader and definitely not elite imo.

I think you're being a bit harsh but think your point is that Horvat isn't the 2nd coming.

We tend to think that "our boy" is better than he really is.  This is natural.  I still think he'll be a solid 2C.  Meaning that there are probably less than 20 bona fide 1C's in the league.  It's still pretty damn good.

The way people throw around the word elite cheapens the term.  Here is Googles definition "a select part of a group that is superior to the rest in terms of ability or qualities".  So what does this mean?  National team members?  Depends which nation.  Hart, Norris etc trophy candidates?  I think this is closer.  Top 5 in any given position in the NHL sounds about right.  For you stats nerds out there, 2 standard deviations above the norm. Top 2-3% or in a league of 700 players, 14-21 players.  That's elite.

[alfstonker]

7 minutes ago, Crabcakes said:

I think you're being a bit harsh but think your point is that Horvat isn't the 2nd coming.

We tend to think that "our boy" is better than he really is.  This is natural.  I still think he'll be a solid 2C.  Meaning that there are probably less than 20 bona fide 1C's in the league.  It's still pretty damn good.

The way people throw around the word elite cheapens the term.  Here is Googles definition "a select part of a group that is superior to the rest in terms of ability or qualities".  So what does this mean?  National team members?  Depends which nation.  Hart, Norris etc trophy candidates?  I think this is closer.  Top 5 in any given position in the NHL sounds about right.  For you stats nerds out there, 2 standard deviations above the norm. Top 2-3% or in a league of 700 players, 14-21 players.  That's elite.

Well he needs to develop some sand and pushback. It's not like he is a lightweight. 

Sadly I see him as a slightly more motivated Higgins, hopefully I'm wrong and I've been influenced by this slump he is going through because this would not have been my opinion last season.

I would offer Horvat, Tanev and Baertschi/Jensen for Johansen but if I was the BJs I wouldn't do it.

[Shift-4]

1 hour ago, McHortanen said:

I dont really like being that guy, but shouldnt this be in the proposal section? Its more of a trade than a canucks talk kind of thread

This places needs more guys like you.  Believe me.  

[Kevin Biestra]

13 minutes ago, alfstonker said:

Well he needs to develop some sand and pushback. It's not like he is a lightweight. 

Sadly I see him as a slightly more motivated Higgins, hopefully I'm wrong and I've been influenced by this slump he is going through because this would not have been my opinion last season.

I would offer Horvat, Tanev and Baertschi/Jensen for Johansen but if I was the BJs I wouldn't do it.

Honestly, I don't think Jensen would get claimed on waivers.

[Matt_T83]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, this isn't 'second line woes' or 'Horvat sophomore slump'.  

This is the Canucks defense == major fail.

The Sedins + Hansen are such good players that they can compensate for the crap Canucks defense, but the rest of the team cannot.  It would help if Sutter hadn't missed half the games this year on injury, but that's not his fault.

The bottom line is we only have 2.5 top 4 defenseman.  We should have Edler, Tanev, and Hamhuis as solid top 3...  but Edler/Hamhuis seem incapable of both playing well on the same night.  Tanev is solid as ever.  Beyond that, we've got a bunch of 3rd pairing defensemen in Sbisa, Bartkowski, Hutton, Weber, etc.

You can't play successful hockey when your defense core is full of 3rd pairing defensemen.

Benning has GOT to shore up the defense somehow.  That's his job, and he's failed at it miserably so far.  Willie can only do so much with what he has.  The onus is on JB to fill the defense void that exists on this team, end of story.

[Canuck Surfer]

Would I?

Of course I would! A 6'3'' 220 lb centre that can put up 70 points at 22, 30 goals at 21 will put up 80 or 90 points in his prime. And be a match up no one has an answer for.

But it still, more than ever in some ways, leaves us shuffling.  Losing Edler is a huge hole on our blue line (which is already weak).

[captaincowbasher]

58 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

Would I?

Of course I would! A 6'3'' 220 lb centre that can put up 70 points at 22, 30 goals at 21 will put up 80 or 90 points in his prime. And be a match up no one has an answer for.

But it still, more than ever in some ways, leaves us shuffling.  Losing Edler is a huge hole on our blue line (which is already weak).

I would and your right, we would be in a hole on D, but something tells me JB is in on Hamonic, the hold up is that JB is trying to grow the deal so it's a multi-player. Something like Hamonic and Lee...

[Canuck Surfer]

19 minutes ago, captaincowbasher said:

I would and your right, we would be in a hole on D, but something tells me JB is in on Hamonic, the hold up is that JB is trying to grow the deal so it's a multi-player. Something like Hamonic and Lee...

If we were in on Hamonic, most likely Edler would be headlining to New York, not Columbus, though?

(Which BTW, I view as a much more likely destination for Edler to waive to...)

[Templeton Peck]

Please post all proposals in the armchair GM'ing section with proper tags.