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Was Benning right about Sutter?


BlackRedYellow

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The season's still young so let's hope this topic is just a temporary discussion which has been forgotten after xmas due to our awesome winning streaks :lol:

But when Benning called Sutter a foundational player, he might have been right... or!?

With Sutter in the line up the first 16 games, we got approx 60% of all points handed out in our games. That's a pretty good return, and we all know some of those games should have given more points as well.

The last 12 games without Sutter, we only got around 30% of all points. That's a very big difference...

I guess Benning can call it a foundational difference! 

I only know one thing. Whether I liked Sutter's play or not, the team looked more complete with him than without him. 

 

Now... let's start that winning streak!! :ph34r:

 

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He is a good defensive center with experience and a good pk,er. With him out we have Hank and Bo a 20 yr old trying to shoulder a massive load in all situations. McCann is 19 on the 3rd line plying his guts out but very raw. Crack is what he is a 4th line C and doing a decent job. Combined with our fragile D-corp, add a few injuries, revolving door wingers for the 2 kids at center and you are seeing the results.

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Lost a lot of close games, and despite having the least number of wins are still in a good spot to get back into a playoff position. 

Sutter does provide a lot of stability, especially defensively. The team has had a hard time holding a lead - Sutter is our best option for checking our opposition's best forward.

He is fairly expensive for a player who doesn't bring much offense, but I am happy we have him moving forward and he is a good fit age wise for our transition. 

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52 minutes ago, RUPERTKBD said:

I think we might just be looking a wee bit too hard to find a reason for the team's current position in the standings....

...it might just be that they aren't that good...

Until just recently, Daniel was >1 PPG. Henrik's near a PPG as well.

Before Sutter was injured, McCann had 5-6 goals. Since then, he's had what? One?

Bo was on a steep learning curve already.

Sbisa actually looked good to start the year off.

Miller was lights-out until he got fatigued, and Markstrom was amazing before his injury. He's still not doing half-bad.

Hutton became injured.

 

We've got a good team. We've just had a series of unfortunate events.

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If you think Sutter is going to turn this team around when he gets back, think again. Everyone can keep on juggling lines all they want, if there is not enough skill or heart and desire, they are not winning. 

Best to just play the year out, get rid of the ole boys for what they can at the trade deadline and keep drafting and building.

My version of who needs to be traded are Edler, Hamhius, Weber, Burrows, Higgins at the very least.

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4 minutes ago, thejazz97 said:

Until just recently, Daniel was >1 PPG. Henrik's near a PPG as well.

Before Sutter was injured, McCann had 5-6 goals. Since then, he's had what? One?

Bo was on a steep learning curve already.

Sbisa actually looked good to start the year off.

Miller was lights-out until he got fatigued, and Markstrom was amazing before his injury. He's still not doing half-bad.

Hutton became injured.

 

We've got a good team. We've just had a series of unfortunate events.

We have a passable team.  Passable team + unfortunate events = crap team.

This was a team which, if it didn't get hit by the annual Canucks injury plague, would have squeaked into the very last playoff spot.

I am going to have to settle for impressive individual seasons from the Sedins as my silver lining...and that's provided the Canucks stop getting shut out.

That and maybe WJC gold for McCann and Virtanen.

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I would suggest that what Sutter's injury has done is expose the fact the depth on the Canucks is razor thin.  JB proclaiming Sutter as a foundational player made me scratch my head, but on a roster like the Canucks, who else are you going to call a foundational player?  

IMO, today's NHL is all about playing as a five man unit (i.e., systems play and over-coaching).  We've been heaing comments like "playing the right way"..."it's a process" for several years now, and with so many kids in the line up, break down of systems is inevitable.   

Add to this veterans like Burrows and Higgins who have shown that they really aren't that good anymore, plus stiffs like Weber and Bartkowski on the blue line, the problems just become magnified.  Throw in bad-Edler instead of good-Edler and the problem gets even worse.

There's a few things about the current roster that bugs me...Prust and Dorsett (two middleweights) having the be the guys to create a "safe working envirnonment" is asking too much of them...Bartkowski, a stiff who couldn't break the Bruins line up last season in no way should be a top six on any NHL roster...Weber, well he just sucks at hockey...and "Millsy" is just too old and skinny to be able to carry the load of the team on his back.

The kids are the least of the issues...give them time to build their pro game (i.e., systems).  In the meantime, coach them, but don't overcoach them Willie.  These are dark days, but the future is bright.  Wasn't this expected?

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2 hours ago, RUPERTKBD said:

I think we might just be looking a wee bit too hard to find a reason for the team's current position in the standings....

...it might just be that they aren't that good...

This.

I know it's hard to accept after being the best Canadian team in the league for the better part of the past decade (even tho no other Candian team fanbase would ever admit that), but indeed the Canucks decline began the in round 1 of the 2012 playoffs.  I know it's the most unfair thing to ask of a fanbase starved of a championship but this is when you need to have patience and an adjustment of expectations.

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Yeah by foundational player he meant temporarily filling a huge gap between Henrik and whoever else is up to the task at solidifying themselves at the 2nd line center. Pretty big role considering Sutter is truly a 3rd line center and who knows how long it's going to take before the Canucks have a 2nd line that can produce again. So yeah, he's an important piece of this team.

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Basically outside the first line we have no production. Despite Hutton's +/-, he and Tanev are one of the few bright spots on D.

Bart is fast, but that's it, Sbisa is improving, Hamhuis, Edler and Weber are just horrible at decision making and can't seem to make a pass to save thier lives. Why Willie would play Weber over Biega boggles my mind because even if he has an above average shot.

Weber has horrible accuracy. Burrows is suffering from lack of production. He's one of the few players that can still skate reasonably fast, and is still a great forechecker. In my opinion we need to trade Higgins, Vrbata, Edler, Hamhuis, and dump Weber. (AHL or on waivers). 

 

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It really seems like the Canucks are limping along. Many players coming back from inuries as well as the amount of player with injuries, it takes a toll on the play. The Canucks are literally a one line team without Sutter. Horvat is a 3rd liner much line McCann should be a forth liner. Horvat competing against second liners and he will lose many time because he is not as experienced. McCann doesn't have as much room anymore because head coaches deploy different players on Sutter than they do Cracknell.

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2 hours ago, riffraff said:

Based on what jb said early in I was expecting more out of his play when he was here.  But apparently we are so bad right now that a 2 way second liner becomes a foundationally missed key injury.

Well yeah, two way players are kind of a major part of a competitive hockey team in this modern age. We've seen too many examples of this to ignore it. Look at what guy like Toews, Kopitar, and Bergeron are making. They're obviously in demand. We had a consistent 2nd line center in Kesler to hold down the position for years, which is probably why some people are taking it for granted now. 

So in short, yes Sutter is valuable. The optimism is that Bo can take on this role in the near future. 

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58 minutes ago, HK Phooey said:

I would suggest that what Sutter's injury has done is expose the fact the depth on the Canucks is razor thin.  JB proclaiming Sutter as a foundational player made me scratch my head, but on a roster like the Canucks, who else are you going to call a foundational player?  

IMO, today's NHL is all about playing as a five man unit (i.e., systems play and over-coaching).  We've been heaing comments like "playing the right way"..."it's a process" for several years now, and with so many kids in the line up, break down of systems is inevitable.   

Add to this veterans like Burrows and Higgins who have shown that they really aren't that good anymore, plus stiffs like Weber and Bartkowski on the blue line, the problems just become magnified.  Throw in bad-Edler instead of good-Edler and the problem gets even worse.

There's a few things about the current roster that bugs me...Prust and Dorsett (two middleweights) having the be the guys to create a "safe working envirnonment" is asking too much of them...Bartkowski, a stiff who couldn't break the Bruins line up last season in no way should be a top six on any NHL roster...Weber, well he just sucks at hockey...and "Millsy" is just too old and skinny to be able to carry the load of the team on his back.

The kids are the least of the issues...give them time to build their pro game (i.e., systems).  In the meantime, coach them, but don't overcoach them Willie.  These are dark days, but the future is bright.  Wasn't this expected?

  1. This for sure......depth.....and given that the Canucks are going with 2 very young centres, I would suggest the only other injury that would cause more grief to the Canucks and their ability to win would be Hank.
  2. Sutter is a foundational player.  Yes he is.  Kind of.  What I mean is that he is strong defensively and shores up the middle while the young centres develop, and provides reasonable offence.  It's a small sample but 4-4-8 +4 over 16 games pro-rates to 20 goals, 20 assists which is just fine.  But Sutter is 26 and by virtue of that is a bridge player.  He will fill a hole in the middle until the young centres mature.  It is obviously an important hole to have filled.

 

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2 hours ago, thejazz97 said:

Until just recently, Daniel was >1 PPG. Henrik's near a PPG as well.

Before Sutter was injured, McCann had 5-6 goals. Since then, he's had what? One?

Bo was on a steep learning curve already.

Sbisa actually looked good to start the year off.

Miller was lights-out until he got fatigued, and Markstrom was amazing before his injury. He's still not doing half-bad.

Hutton became injured.

 

We've got a good team. We've just had a series of unfortunate events.

Unfortunate events! Yes, I guess that's one way to see it. Or maybe, Bo is not one of the top centers in the league after all. And Sbisa is not a stud on defence after all, and Miller is really as old as he is and wayyyyy past his prime, and the Canucks have been decimated by injuries (or injury). Maybe?

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