Jump to content
The Official Site of the Vancouver Canucks
Canucks Community

Does/Did Tanking Work?


TheGuardian

Recommended Posts

12 minutes ago, flickyoursedin said:

Its about getting value from the guys that won't be there for the big picture. Do you see Vrbata hoisting the cup with Vancouver? The first round pick you get for him could very well be a Corey Perry, John Carlson late round steal. With how the Canucks look lately I see that 1rst round pick as that helping factor for when we'll need it. The only scenarios I see are trade Vrbata for a high pick which might make us lose a few more games, or keep him and lose him for nothing while still miss the playoffs and picking another number 2 centre or number 2 dman.

On the flip side, we lose a lot of goals by trading Vrbata...albeit streaky goals.  We can't just play 2 x Sedins, 2 x Kids and 8 Plugs on any given night and expect not to feel like we're cheering for the Leafs.  EDIT: I should add I am not opposed to trading him, but we need more than picks back for Vrbata. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Nords(89~91) are a good example. Interesting that they dealt away their three consecutive #1's, before those guys could settle in.

On why this doesn't always work, necessary to seperate correlation & causation. There are more variables involved in building a winner, than just drafting high. However of all the dominant franchise dynasty-runs, it's probably the closest to a common denominator.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Say CBJ had drafted Kane, Keith & Toews instead..would they have won 3 Cups by now? Highly doubt it.

How many depth-vets would want to sign in such a locale? Such a market usually avoids maxing cap - although that gap is becoming less of an issue.

With each successive CBA, the league is finding more ways to "level the playing field". Such parity might also lend itself to a more easily rigged deck. Major US markets will benefit, it appears.(drag out the tired 'conspiracy theorist-shyte')..Most billion-dollar biz is rigged, & it's incredibly naive to believe otherwise...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Boudrias said:

 

Fans talk as if tanking becomes a conscious choice. In most of the examples given the management road their old horses until they dropped and then their options were limited. The Edmonton example is obvious but Chicago and Florida were similar.

It appears to me that Murray did a excellent job converting is vets into picks and prospects. Buffalo's depth is far superior to Vancouver.

I stand by my thought that Vancouver should be trying to convert at least 3 vets into pics and prospects this year. If Benning is able to achieve that it will be a good season. One only has to look at the development timeline on the existing roster to realize it is a ticking time bomb about 2seasons from exploding. I certainly do not count Benning and Linden responsible for this situation but failure to act will be on their heads. 

Not sure if serious, but I think you need to take a closer look at the actual depth Buffalo has.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0000032016.html

Rochester sure as hell does not have far superior depth to Utica, and Buffalo's NHL lineup...yeah, nope.

Utica went to the Calder Finals last year.  Not sure why so many folks around here are still so shallow on the prospect pool

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In my opinion only management can tank.  When management decides to ice an noncompetitive roster for either savings (Arizona) or to target a pick (Buffalo) it's tanking.  When management adds controversial characters into the dressing room, like Mark Messier, to rip the heart out of your captain and eat it in front of the team and fans, (that may be a little over dramatic) it destroys team moral.  Putting aside whether winning was the intended goal of management, Messier made the team completely impotent.  Conversely, It was those failing years that got us the Sedins.  Was signing Messier an attempt at tanking?  Probably not, but not all tanking is "tanking".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm a supporter of the tank this year, I can't see this team doing any damage in this Western conference and I don't want to see them pick around 10-12 again. A pick in the top three will give this club and fans that buzz again. I'm all for trading Vrbata, Hamhuis and Higgins for picks.

Problem with the Canucks in the past is that they have hung on to players for a season or two too long. 

Benning realises this and that's why you have seen Bieksa shipped out and hopefully 2-3 more this season.

its going to be a painful few years no doubt but we have some decent youngsters already and I hope they are the supporting cast for that superstar I hope we draft this season.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, EdgarM said:

You brought up a good point. Its not where you pick sometimes but who you pick. Your scouting staff play an integral part of drafting the correct players. I think Vancouver has been guilty of drafting the wrong players a couple of times at least over the years.

Pretty much. I supported Gillis when he was here (at least for the first 2 or 3 years), but hindsight proves that, just because you have a theory on how to draft, it's just a theory. Having a smart guy in Hodgson, while sounding good, it was always in the back of my head where he'd fit on this team (turns out he didn't). Schroeder was also somewhat questionable, but at least he had the defense down pat (in a non-St. Louis caliber 5 foot 9 body). These 2 were also being drafted after Gillis told the media we weren't headed in the right direction under Nonis.... and then only provided complimentary players for Nonis' team. lol

I think Jensen was at least the start of Gillis heading in the right direction by drafting a player that makes sense for our team, but I'm just not convinced on him. Gaunce I think was really Gillis' first good first round pick (or even his first good pick in general).

But, this is why I like Benning. I actually hope Benning's here for a long time much like how we've seen Lombardi in LA or Bowman in Chicago (even though it was Tallon who actually should be created for the core of Chicago's team). We've needed someone with actual drafting prowess for a long time (and so far he's looked good for us).

So, I guess the way I view things is to just let the season unfold. I'm not hoping we tank. I'd rather patiently await to see who Benning drafts next, because even now we're seeing late rounders suddenly improve out of nowhere after being drafted (Tate Olson anyone? lol)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Canucks should try for a top pick at least for one season, preferably starting this year. The Sedins are at the twilight years of their careers (their current stats show differently), and we don't have a young franchise player to replace them. Let's not forget that we'll lose two stars when they retire.

We don't know what Bo's ceiling is yet, but only good things can come from drafting a franchise player like Mathews who has a very high ceiling. If Bo does become a future Selke caliber player, 2 is always better than 1. Once we have that top class talent, then we can start building a new team around them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To win the cup you seem to need to do one of two things.

1.  Tank - draft a franchise player(s) and surround him/them with great support players

or

2. Draft/trade/sign a Norris quality defenseman (Chara, Lindstrom, Pronger) and surround him with great support players

Soon the Sedins will be gone.  Vancouver won't have a franchise player, a Norris defenseman or great support players.  Which means we'll have top end picks and hopefully get a Toews or Doughty, not a Yakupov or DiPietro.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, chilliwiggins said:

Utica was stocked with veteran AHLers , in a new market to get the fans on board, they had steller goal tending,  the prospects did help but the vets played the majority of the minutes yes bearcheese played good , but youra little off on what went down in Utica travis greene stuck to the vets and those vets are mostly no longer in the system.  hence uticas current position in the standings

Well, even if it's the case and you atrribute a large part of last season's success to departed AHL veterans (who don't necessarily impact NHL depth), it remains the case that the goaltending of Markstrom is still a part of the Canuck's depth, as are other key youth - and that in either event the Rochester Americans were not a good team last year and are still worse than Utica this season.  The Amercs also have AHL vetrerans (lead by Cal O'Reilly this year) - Akeson, (Sanguinetti) and nevertheless, not a great deal of depth, at least not enough to call "far superior" to Vancouver at either level.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, TOMapleLaughs said:

Case for:  Chicago, LA, Pittsburgh

Case against:  Edmonton, Edmonton, Edmonton, Edmonton, Edmonton

Conclusion:  You cannot merely lose and expect to magically get better.  There eventually needs to be a total commitment to winning.  Chicago, LA and Pittsburgh did that.  Edmonton has yet to do so and they may never will, which is fine, because the 80's.

Against, also Atlanta/Winnipeg, Columbus and plenty of other teams that toiled in or around the bottom for a long time. And then you consider the times where Edmonton, Pittsburgh, etc. got the 1st overall despite not being last in the league and who wants to be that team that loses out if you do tank.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tanking isn't the answer but blowing it up real good is the answer and suck for a year or two like what mtl or phi did a few years back than turn it around real fast 

vrbata, hamhuis, Hansen, Weber, Higgins, burrows, prust and perhaps bartkowski are all ufas either this season or next so trade some of them and that'll strip us down 

 

sedin-sedin-virtanen

mccann-horvat-xxxxx

shinkaruk-sutter-dorsett

baerschi-xxxxx-grenier

gaunce

 

edler-tanev

sbisa-xxxxx

hutton-xxxxx

pedan-fedun

 

Fill in the blanks with a free agent or two and we're set 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Another problem with this year and "tanking" is the 2nd place in our division (San Jose, who we're tied with), is also the 18th place team in the entire league.

If every team in our division continues to suck, we might make the playoffs while playing like we are playing.....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Patrick Kane said:

You need to be able to draft outside the 1st round.

Great point there.  To go from last to first especially requires solid depth which comes from late round drafting.  Case in point Chicago, who after picking Kane and Toews early, also got Keith in the 2nd, Hjalmarsson in the 4th, and Kruger/ Shaw in the 5th. Buffy was even an 8th round pick!  Of course it doesn't just come from drafting but also signing and trading for players, but for the sake of this topic the point stands true: picking players of value outside of the 1st round provides the vaunted depth needed to succeed.  

Now, cases against tanking would've included Columbus in their Brassard/ Filatov/ Zherdev/ Brule era, when these guys all flamed out during their time in Ohio and the team was essentially Nash.  Florida was also terrible, even though they stank year after year they weren't able to ice a competent team for a long time.  However, with the improvement in analytics and projections it MIGHT be worthwhile to bottom out, seeing how young guns are more ready for prime-time than ever (e.g. McD's, Eichel already playing in the league and making an impact).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, CanadianRugby said:

To win the cup you seem to need to do one of two things.

1.  Tank - draft a franchise player(s) and surround him/them with great support players

or

2. Draft/trade/sign a Norris quality defenseman (Chara, Lindstrom, Pronger) and surround him with great support players

Soon the Sedins will be gone.  Vancouver won't have a franchise player, a Norris defenseman or great support players.  Which means we'll have top end picks and hopefully get a Toews or Doughty, not a Yakupov or DiPietro.

It sounds like you need both of those these days

Chicago: Toews/Kane and Keith

LA: Kopitar and Doughty

Boston: Bergeron and Chara

Great goaltending is also an obvious factor.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The best way to get a high pick is no longer to finish last, it's to trade up.

New for 2016 there will be 3 draft lotteries, one for each of the top 3 picks.  The worst team has a 25% chance of getting either of the top 4 picks.  In other words, finishing last gives you an equal chance of picking 4th as 1st.  And of course, finishing 17th gives you a snowballs chance at the top 3 picks but, there's a chance......

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...