Does/Did Tanking Work?

[NuckleheadFan]

Ok, I won't mention the recent team that had 1st overall pick in the 3 of the past 5 drafts.

The 83-84 "alleged" tanked season by the Penguins to Draft 1st overall (before the draft lottery system), drafting the likes of Lemieux still didn't help the Penguins for the following several seasons.

[desiboynux4lifee*******]

well its either tank or be medicore lol the only positive for this team, if they decide not to tank is use a Minnesota  approach and sign some BC boys like they signed Parise and Suter. Can this team do that? well maybe Lucic and a decent D-man. Will this team go anywhere with Lucic and a decent D-man. Answer is -----

[Winter Soldier]

2 hours ago, Cowardrobertford said:

The one win yesterday is nothing compared to the decade of greatness Austin Mathews would bring to this team with so many life supports connected in it.

Get over yourself.

[Cowardrobertford]

1 hour ago, Winter Soldier said:

Get over yourself.

Ha, in all honesty, I hate losing and I want us to be competitive every year. My problem however is that, if we don't do it now, it would take us a bit longer to be a playoff threat again. And no disrespect but I see no prospects in our system who could replace the heart of our team, the Sedins.

[The Lock]

27 minutes ago, Cowardrobertford said:

Ha, in all honesty, I hate losing and I want us to be competitive every year. My problem however is that, if we don't do it now, it would take us a bit longer to be a playoff threat again. And no disrespect but I see no prospects in our system who could replace the heart of our team, the Sedins.

The thing is, superstars don't just come from 1st or 2nd overall. There are a ton of superstars outside of that "zone": Kopitar, Getzlaf, Perry, Doan, Couture, Parise.... I'd continue on but the list would be huge!

Then there's 1st overalls like Yakupov. While Matthews is likely to be no Yakupov, so far he's still proof how tanking doesn't get you a superstar. Add to the fact that the top 3 picks are now random....

The other thing is Auston Matthews alone will not help us. A play does not perform without a cast of characters and proper directing of the cast's lines.

[NuckleheadFan]

Just my personal opinion, and I'm probably a minority in my old school beliefs but I'd lose respect for the Canucks and would have a hard time continuing to cheer them on if I knew they tanked purposely for a higher draft pick. That's just pure disrespect to athletes and sports competition. I'd have more pride to be a fan of a team that plays hard every game to win, even if they are out skilled and out played. When the Canucks were the league bottom dwellers for many years, the team left everything out on the ice most nights, i appreciated it and could not even think of changing to another team.

[The Lock]

15 minutes ago, NuckleheadFan said:

Just my personal opinion, and I'm probably a minority in my old school beliefs but I'd lose respect for the Canucks and would have a hard time continuing to cheer them on if I knew they tanked purposely for a higher draft pick. That's just pure disrespect to athletes and sports competition. I'd have more pride to be a fan of a team that plays hard every game to win, even if they are out skilled and out played. When the Canucks were the league bottom dwellers for many years, the team left everything out on the ice most nights, i appreciated it and could not even think of changing to another team.

I have to agree. While I understand why some fans want us to tank, I certainly don't. I'd rather us never win the cup than to know we purposely tanked.

[Cowardrobertford]

31 minutes ago, The Lock said:

The thing is, superstars don't just come from 1st or 2nd overall. There are a ton of superstars outside of that "zone": Kopitar, Getzlaf, Perry, Doan, Couture, Parise.... I'd continue on but the list would be huge!

Then there's 1st overalls like Yakupov. While Matthews is likely to be no Yakupov, so far he's still proof how tanking doesn't get you a superstar. Add to the fact that the top 3 picks are now random....

The other thing is Auston Matthews alone will not help us. A play does not perform without a cast of characters and proper directing of the cast's lines.

Yes, I agree with what you have stated, but the chances for success are higher as we go up the draft, and the exceptions are very rare, and we never ever seem to find.

[The Lock]

3 minutes ago, Cowardrobertford said:

Yes, I agree with what you have stated, but the chances for success are higher as we go up the draft, and the exceptions are very rare, and we never ever seem to find.

We also didn't have a scout as a GM. We had a Harvard University professor with a so-called "theory".

[Baggins]

12 hours ago, TOMapleLaughs said:

Agreed.  But a big, fast, uber-skilled player like Lemieux is generational and you see a greater urgency to pull off a tank in that case.

However, Lemieux won no cups in Pittsburgh until they had went to a 100% commitment to winning cups, top-down.  Scotty Bowman brought in, various playoff-proven vets, 'grit', a lot of expense, etc.

The truth is Bowman walked into a great situation in Pittsburgh with 6 top five picks over the previous 7 years and two of them generational stars in Lemieux and Jagr. But Pittsburgh went through a decade of suffering and financial problems before winning that first cup. And Bowman wasn't the GM or coach there at the time, so not sure how much was his decision making/influence.

[MoneypuckOverlord]

Not sure if your asking if "tanking" works or building a team high 1st round picks.

 

It has failed miserably for Edmonton but has worked with pretty much everyone else.  If you look at the contenders today with exception of New York, all of them have a very pick high pick playing for them.

 

for example.

 

 

Lets use Pittsburgh, Malkin, (2nd) Crosby have been the sole reasons why Pittsburgh has been a contender every year, despite recent struggles, they are still a threat regardless of those 2 players, and they have won the cup and a stanley cup final.

No introduction to this one, Chicago Blackhawks, fluked a lottery win in 2007, landed Patrick Kane (either way he's a 1st pick) and Jonathen Toews (3)

how bout this one, the Vancouver Canucks, equipped with a number 2 and number 3 pick, (Sedins) They were a contender for 5 of the 6 seasons, and have won by far more divisional titles then any Canadian team combined, not to mention a run to the Stanley cup and back to back Presidents trophies. Despite age, yes... the Canucks have depended on our number 2 and number 3 picks for over 15 years.

Tampa Bay Lighting.  Stamkos and Hedman (2).  up and downs, but despite that, they made it to the final 4 in 2011, and of course, the Stanley cup finals in 2015.

L.A Kings, they also have a high draft pick playing for them, in Drew Doughty (2)

Heck even when Boston made their Stanley cup runs, they had a Seguin (2) in their line up.

Right now, speaking of Seguin, He's currently playing on the best team in the leauge ( Dallas Stars) and yes, he's a number 2 pick.

Montreal, lets not over look these guys, heck even they have a top 3 pick in their line up right now, (Galchunyuk) 3rd overall.

so does tanking "work" well I don't expect the team to "tank" but we will benefit from having a player that was drafted in the 1-3. so to answer your question.....

yes.... the best teams in the league today have a player in their system that is a top prospect as in, like a top 3 pick.  (with exception of New York)

I will fully support this team, drafting in the top 2.  It's time we get a number 1 pick also.

 

[Hairy Kneel]

I don't think of it as tanking per se but making the best out of a bad situation. We're stuck with too many poor contracts of veterans who's prime years are in the rear view mirror. We need to upgrade our defense.

Everything points to cleaning house in the off season. If we're headed towards the last playoff spot don't spend draft picks or prospects propping up this lot (unless it's for a Hutton 2.0)

[Baggins]

12 hours ago, Cowardrobertford said:

The one win yesterday is nothing compared to the decade of greatness Austin Mathews would bring to this team with so many life supports connected in it.

Sure, because one player is all you need for greatness.

After drafting Lemieux Pittsburgh had five more top 5 picks before winning the cup. They then had another five consecutive years of top five picks before winning again with Crosby. Over an 8 year span Chicago had three top 5 and three top 10 picks before winning the cup three years later. There is no quick fix. It takes far more than one player to win the cup and fans here won't tolerate being a bottom feeder that long. They can barely tolerate missing the playoffs one year.

Btw, Ottawa had a stretch of five consecutive years of top 5 picks and a top 5 in 2001. How many cups do they have now?

[EdgarM]

4 hours ago, MoneypuckOverlord said:

Not sure if your asking if "tanking" works or building a team high 1st round picks.

 

It has failed miserably for Edmonton but has worked with pretty much everyone else.  If you look at the contenders today with exception of New York, all of them have a very pick high pick playing for them.

 

for example.

 

 

Lets use Pittsburgh, Malkin, (2nd) Crosby have been the sole reasons why Pittsburgh has been a contender every year, despite recent struggles, they are still a threat regardless of those 2 players, and they have won the cup and a stanley cup final.

No introduction to this one, Chicago Blackhawks, fluked a lottery win in 2007, landed Patrick Kane (either way he's a 1st pick) and Jonathen Toews (3)

how bout this one, the Vancouver Canucks, equipped with a number 2 and number 3 pick, (Sedins) They were a contender for 5 of the 6 seasons, and have won by far more divisional titles then any Canadian team combined, not to mention a run to the Stanley cup and back to back Presidents trophies. Despite age, yes... the Canucks have depended on our number 2 and number 3 picks for over 15 years.

Tampa Bay Lighting.  Stamkos and Hedman (2).  up and downs, but despite that, they made it to the final 4 in 2011, and of course, the Stanley cup finals in 2015.

L.A Kings, they also have a high draft pick playing for them, in Drew Doughty (2)

Heck even when Boston made their Stanley cup runs, they had a Seguin (2) in their line up.

Right now, speaking of Seguin, He's currently playing on the best team in the leauge ( Dallas Stars) and yes, he's a number 2 pick.

Montreal, lets not over look these guys, heck even they have a top 3 pick in their line up right now, (Galchunyuk) 3rd overall.

so does tanking "work" well I don't expect the team to "tank" but we will benefit from having a player that was drafted in the 1-3. so to answer your question.....

yes.... the best teams in the league today have a player in their system that is a top prospect as in, like a top 3 pick.  (with exception of New York)

I will fully support this team, drafting in the top 2.  It's time we get a number 1 pick also.

 

So if we look at your theory about top 3 picks, 13 of 63 players picked in the last 20 years since 1995 have won cups. The last one being Seguin who was drafted in 2010. So roughly only 20% of top 3 draft picks get you a cup. Those are not great odds if you are relying on that person on bringing you a championship.

[TOMapleLaughs]

6 hours ago, Baggins said:

The truth is Bowman walked into a great situation in Pittsburgh with 6 top five picks over the previous 7 years and two of them generational stars in Lemieux and Jagr. But Pittsburgh went through a decade of suffering and financial problems before winning that first cup. And Bowman wasn't the GM or coach there at the time, so not sure how much was his decision making/influence.

Bowman wasn't the GM or coach in Chicago either, yet wherever he goes, they usually win.  Aside from St. L, where he took his team to the finals 4 times.  Dude's smart.  You'd listen.

[Zedlee]

15 hours ago, BanTSN said:

This debate is useless because the Canucks will never, ever tank.  Ever.

Depends what you mean by "tank".  Will the Canucks deliberately lose games?  No, I don't believe so. 

But could they play the kids a lot more? Yes. Could they trade pending UFA's for draft choices?  Yes.  

Both of these strategies would serve to make it more likely that we finish lower and get a better draft choice.  

[WeneedLumme]

22 minutes ago, EdgarM said:

So if we look at your theory about top 3 picks, 13 of 63 players picked in the last 20 years since 1995 have won cups. The last one being Seguin who was drafted in 2010. So roughly only 20% of top 3 draft picks get you a cup. Those are not great odds if you are relying on that person on bringing you a championship.

That's a little too factual for this thread. Tankers know that odds are for losers. If we finish in the bottom of the league, of course we will win the lottery, of course we will draft a superstar and of course that will be enough for us to win the cup within a couple of years.

Just like if we don't waste our 2nd round draft picks trading for partly developed players who have a good chance of becoming good NHL players, we will of course draft star players with those picks.

Why can't Linden and Benning see the obvious?

[EdgarM]

3 minutes ago, WeneedLumme said:

That's a little too factual for this thread. Tankers know that odds are for losers. If we finish in the bottom of the league, of course we will win the lottery, of course we will draft a superstar and of course that will be enough for us to win the cup within a couple of years.

Just like if we don't waste our 2nd round draft picks trading for partly developed players who have a good chance of becoming good NHL players, we will of course draft star players with those picks.

Why can't Linden and Benning see the obvious?

Yeah your right. The 22 other players on the team is just a formality too. I am thinking if this player is that great, he would probably not need a coaching staff either.Finally, I have full confidence the scouting staff are going to pick the correct draft picks and will pick nothing but winners. Why would they not? Don't know what I was thinking to doubt them and believe in the professionals.

[Winter Soldier]

4 hours ago, Baggins said:

Sure, because one player is all you need for greatness.

After drafting Lemieux Pittsburgh had five more top 5 picks before winning the cup. They then had another five consecutive years of top five picks before winning again with Crosby. Over an 8 year span Chicago had three top 5 and three top 10 picks before winning the cup three years later. There is no quick fix. It takes far more than one player to win the cup and fans here won't tolerate being a bottom feeder that long. They can barely tolerate missing the playoffs one year.

Btw, Ottawa had a stretch of five consecutive years of top 5 picks and a top 5 in 2001. How many cups do they have now?

I apologize for the notification spam you might receive as I paste this in every tanking based discussion for the next year.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

5 hours ago, Baggins said:

Sure, because one player is all you need for greatness.

After drafting Lemieux Pittsburgh had five more top 5 picks before winning the cup. They then had another five consecutive years of top five picks before winning again with Crosby. Over an 8 year span Chicago had three top 5 and three top 10 picks before winning the cup three years later. There is no quick fix. It takes far more than one player to win the cup and fans here won't tolerate being a bottom feeder that long. They can barely tolerate missing the playoffs one year.

Btw, Ottawa had a stretch of five consecutive years of top 5 picks and a top 5 in 2001. How many cups do they have now?

Don’t forget the Islanders

Dal Colle(5) Reinhart (4), Strome (5), Niederreiter (5), Tavares (1), Okposo (7), DiPietro (1), Torres (5), Connolly (5), Luongo (4), Brewer (5), Dumount (3), Redden (2), Kasparatis (5) Lachance (4) Scissons (6) Chyzowski (2)

That’s 17 picks in span of 25 years.  That’s also a total of 11 playoff series and not making it out of the first round in the past 21 years.