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Horvat, McCann, Willie, and the Canucks strategy


Johnny Torts

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12 hours ago, Outsiders said:

Just for the record.... Is anyone else noticing Horvats lack of push back? Like he is getting pushed around out there and doesn't push back. Like the kid needs to stand up for himself. To many times when there is scrums after the whistle he stands off to the side and doesn't do anything then skates to the bench. Im tired of his lack of push back, you would think if he isn't scoring or playing well he would start throwing the body and get involved physically. Maybe he needs to get into his first NHL fight? 

I hear people talking about pushback as if it's all about fighting or after the whistle scrums.  When you hear the term pushback it's more refers to playing with an edge whistle to whistle.. Chippy, not taking crap from anybody.. Playing hard on the puck, hitting and lastly, comes fighting.  Especially when talking about your more skilled players.  

IMO Bo plays with a fair bit of pushback. Hacking wacking, fighting hard for pucks, the occasional hit and crosscheck.  He's doing fine and just needs sutter to come back and take some of the burden of the extra responsibillities away.

 

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On ‎15‎/‎12‎/‎2015 at 10:13 PM, Outsiders said:

Just for the record.... Is anyone else noticing Horvats lack of push back? Like he is getting pushed around out there and doesn't push back. Like the kid needs to stand up for himself. To many times when there is scrums after the whistle he stands off to the side and doesn't do anything then skates to the bench. Im tired of his lack of push back, you would think if he isn't scoring or playing well he would start throwing the body and get involved physically. Maybe he needs to get into his first NHL fight? 

I have absolutely noticed. I have wondered if I was the only one noticing him turtle on the last road trip. Philly perhaps.  To me that was a major red flag for Horvat as future Captain. And yet is seems to have gone unnoticed.

I think Horvat should be in the minors, which also makes me wonder what it is the Canucks are doing different than the Oilers have for the last half decade? How is McCann being handled any different than Hopkins? How is Bo any different from Hall?

Canuck fans believe this "Winning Environment" hooey, but I see more similarities to the current Canucks to the last half decade Oilers than I see differences.

The only difference I see is the Sedins are still producing where-as Ryan Captain Canada went the way of Trevor Linden/ Stan Smyl, from scorer to barely a 4th liner.

I think the Canucks need to immediately re-examine how they are benefitting/destroying their young.    

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The best part about the Canucks this year is the young guys getting to play and breathing some life into this team. What I hate seeing is the young guys glued to the bench in the 3rd period every night when they played two great periods. I'm still having an even harder time watching Higgens and Burrows getting those extra minutes while not deserving them.

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On 15 December 2015 at 9:46 AM, Baggins said:

I think both Horvat and Mccann are currently in over their head for where their development is at. Both were playing quite well prior to Sutters injury. Both move up a line and both are struggling to produce despite increased ice time.

As far as dump and chase being Willies strategy I don't buy it. I think it has more to do with what the other team is giving these guys. If there isn't a clean entry you dump and chase. if there's a clean entry you carry it in. It's just that simple. Now I haven't seen much in the way of dump ins when there's a clean entry other than to do a line change.

Agreed.

Dump and chase has never been his strategy. Puck possession and fast transition is his strategy. A lot of the dump and chase is imo down to lack of confidence with so many of them going through a slump and of course pressure from the opposition.

It is just plain silly imo to label a coach's style while he is dealing with so many injuries and personnel changes, vets in form slumps and rookies who are - rookies.

You play the system that suits the players, it's not always the one you want to play

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23 hours ago, lmm said:

I have absolutely noticed. I have wondered if I was the only one noticing him turtle on the last road trip. Philly perhaps.  To me that was a major red flag for Horvat as future Captain. And yet is seems to have gone unnoticed.

I think Horvat should be in the minors, which also makes me wonder what it is the Canucks are doing different than the Oilers have for the last half decade? How is McCann being handled any different than Hopkins? How is Bo any different from Hall?

Canuck fans believe this "Winning Environment" hooey, but I see more similarities to the current Canucks to the last half decade Oilers than I see differences.

The only difference I see is the Sedins are still producing where-as Ryan Captain Canada went the way of Trevor Linden/ Stan Smyl, from scorer to barely a 4th liner.

I think the Canucks need to immediately re-examine how they are benefitting/destroying their young.    

I don't think the winning environment thing is hooey at all.  The thing is that the environment right now is not winning.  This is due to injuries to key people who are relied upon (Sutter, Tanev, Hamhuis) and lack of depth.  The lack of depth goes hand in hand with a team in transition.  It's a risky time this way.

Benning never said it would be easy.  Unfortunately, we see Horvat and McCann struggling because they're over their heads.  They are coming to terms with the adversity and in some games they look alright and in others not so much.  The situation they are in is less than ideal but the young players (Horvat, McCann, Hutton and others) are certainly being pressed and their character challenged.  I think we saw pushback from Horvat against Doughty but that's the only instance I can think of.

And to Alfstonker's point, this lack of depth has lead to a change in team on ice strategy as well.

I'd like to think that longer term, when there is more depth in the system, they won't have to put their young guys at risk they way they are now.  These young guys have good character, as the injured players come back, we'll see how they do playing on the proper lines.

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13 minutes ago, Crabcakes said:

I don't think the winning environment thing is hooey at all.  The thing is that the environment right now is not winning.  This is due to injuries to key people who are relied upon (Sutter, Tanev, Hamhuis) and lack of depth.  The lack of depth goes hand in hand with a team in transition.  It's a risky time this way.

Benning never said it would be easy.  Unfortunately, we see Horvat and McCann struggling because they're over their heads.  They are coming to terms with the adversity and in some games they look alright and in others not so much.  The situation they are in is less than ideal but the young players (Horvat, McCann, Hutton and others) are certainly being pressed and their character challenged.  I think we saw pushback from Horvat against Doughty but that's the only instance I can think of.

And to Alfstonker's point, this lack of depth has lead to a change in team on ice strategy as well.

I'd like to think that longer term, when there is more depth in the system, they won't have to put their young guys at risk they way they are now.  These young guys have good character, as the injured players come back, we'll see how they do playing on the proper lines.

Bo does compete, not to the level of McCann though.  Bo is a big guy, who could be more the initiator rather than the retaliator.  I think, like you say, that aggressive initiation of physical play will come as he builds confidence.  

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On ‎15‎/‎12‎/‎2015 at 10:41 PM, JamesB said:

Good OP. Your analysis of Horvat contains an insight that I have not seen before and I never thought of. But I think you are right. Bo is getting worn down by the dump and chase system. Burrows has never been fast and seems to have lost a step (which is normal at his age) and therefore is no longer good on the forecheck. And Baertschi is fast but not good on the forecheck. So Bo is doing too much work at both ends of the ice.

You overall assessments are kind of optimistic, though. McCann and Horvat both have skill but it remains to be seen if that skill translates into significant scoring at the NHL level. I am more optimistic about McCann than Horvat on this dimension.

It might be that Horvat's ceiling is as a shutdown 3C/ PK kind of guy (like Malholtra). I hope he does better than that, but his rate of progress has certainly slowed relative to last year. But I agree that the lack of effective support from the D, the injury to Sutter and playing with linemates who are either in decline (Burrows, Higgins) or not yet at the NHL level (Baertschi) has hurt him.

Horvat is a big boy and I think he is trying to take on the power component of his line since there is nobody else who is able to do it.  It is too much to ask of a young centre.  He has his defensive responsibility and add to that doing the heavy lifting on the boards behind the oppositions net.  This is what you get when paired with Baer and Vrbata who aren't forecheckers.

When he was doing well last year it was with Dorsett who did the heavy work in the offensive zone.

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On ‎12‎/‎15‎/‎2015 at 3:46 AM, Baggins said:

I think both Horvat and Mccann are currently in over their head for where their development is at. Both were playing quite well prior to Sutters injury. Both move up a line and both are struggling to produce despite increased ice time.

As far as dump and chase being Willies strategy I don't buy it. I think it has more to do with what the other team is giving these guys. If there isn't a clean entry you dump and chase. if there's a clean entry you carry it in. It's just that simple. Now I haven't seen much in the way of dump ins when there's a clean entry other than to do a line change.

Agreed. When the two of them were 3rd line centers, they were playing at about the level they were ready for. Neither one is a second line center...yet!

Sutter comes back, and I believe he needs to resume the second line role, Horvat goes back to 3rd, and McCann goes wing. I would give both of them a game off here and there, especially McCann; let them take an instruction game and watch from the pressbox. Make it known that this is NOT a "bad game" decision, but is a way for them to re-evaluate how to position themselves, how to read a developing play, how to read a D-man and which way he will come out from behind the net or react to a forecheck. There is nothing wrong, in a player's first year or two, with getting a pressbox game to see things from "on high". You think Hansen didn't learn something from the healthy scratches he accumulated in his first couple of years?

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5 hours ago, Crabcakes said:

I don't think the winning environment thing is hooey at all.  The thing is that the environment right now is not winning.  This is due to injuries to key people who are relied upon (Sutter, Tanev, Hamhuis) and lack of depth.  The lack of depth goes hand in hand with a team in transition.  It's a risky time this way.

Benning never said it would be easy.  Unfortunately, we see Horvat and McCann struggling because they're over their heads.  They are coming to terms with the adversity and in some games they look alright and in others not so much.  The situation they are in is less than ideal but the young players (Horvat, McCann, Hutton and others) are certainly being pressed and their character challenged.  I think we saw pushback from Horvat against Doughty but that's the only instance I can think of.

And to Alfstonker's point, this lack of depth has lead to a change in team on ice strategy as well.

I'd like to think that longer term, when there is more depth in the system, they won't have to put their young guys at risk they way they are now.  These young guys have good character, as the injured players come back, we'll see how they do playing on the proper lines.

The question still remains, is this the best for these kids?

Horvat has not scores in 1/3 of the season, McCann has 1 goal in almost as long.

Horvat looks frightened and lost, McCann just looks lost.

Horvat had no idea what to do on the PP late in the LA game.

Make no mistake, I am not blaming either player, but Benning  had the opportunity to pick up both Stoll and Gagner and send McCann to the Worlds and then Junior and Horvat to the minors. He has done none of that.

The Oilers have made a lot of mistakes over the past 5 ish years, but they sent Desratl back to junior after he played more than 10 games and they sent him to the minors this year.  He is playing better than either Bo or Jared.

I am not buying this "Winning Culture" stuff nor do I believe Willie is the "Only" coach that can coach these kids.  Again this is not against Willie, it is management. And in my view it is mis-management of assets  

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On 12/15/2015 at 1:46 AM, Baggins said:

I think both Horvat and Mccann are currently in over their head for where their development is at. Both were playing quite well prior to Sutters injury. Both move up a line and both are struggling to produce despite increased ice time.

As far as dump and chase being Willies strategy I don't buy it. I think it has more to do with what the other team is giving these guys. If there isn't a clean entry you dump and chase. if there's a clean entry you carry it in. It's just that simple. Now I haven't seen much in the way of dump ins when there's a clean entry other than to do a line change.

Nor do I. I see people mention this quite often, but my experience is, dump and chase is an option, not a strategy.

All things being equal, teams will always prefer to enter the offensive zone with possession. The problem is, the opposing team knows this and prepares defensively to make sure it doesn't happen. If the defense is disciplined and positionally sound, it is very difficult for the attacking team to enter the zone with possession. That being the case, (as it often is, especially against defensively sound teams like the Kings) the best option is to get the puck deep and try and regain possession.

The worst case scenario is loss of possession, 200 feet from your net.

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On December 15, 2015 at 1:13 AM, Outsiders said:

Just for the record.... Is anyone else noticing Horvats lack of push back? Like he is getting pushed around out there and doesn't push back. Like the kid needs to stand up for himself. To many times when there is scrums after the whistle he stands off to the side and doesn't do anything then skates to the bench. Im tired of his lack of push back, you would think if he isn't scoring or playing well he would start throwing the body and get involved physically. Maybe he needs to get into his first NHL fight? 

Like... I mean... Like...

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So far alot of JB players are wetting the bed as the year comes to a close not alot of bright spots to end the year on.

 All on a downer to end 2015,Vrbata,Virtanen,Beoser,McCAnn and Bearschi although to be fair Bear was starting to show his potential on ice then got bumped around by injury .Could probably add Miller to the list to as he has steadily declined the past month injurys an all a goalie should steal games if he is capable.

All in all there is not alot that can be done in the very short term 4 1/5 months 

I hope this good ship Benning can right itself an turn it around for 2016 an wish all the best an a Happy New year to all fellow canucks.

Happy New YEar everyone.

 

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So the young guys are going to be playing a bit less next year:

WillieD thinks it's unfair and that it doesn't allow them the opportunity to get stronger because it can wear them down so they want to have a plan to allow them to get the rest they need. 

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Horvat and McCann, I feel are two poor man's Toewses - Horvat, however, at best may be Toews part II. He must synthesize his two-way game with power and all-round ability. And, I would also try and acquire one Trevor Cox of the Giants to skate with him - he could be his Patrick Kane.

McCann meanwhile, would be great backup. Have to be real excited about these two centers.

 

Desjardins is an excellent coach. Frankly my first choice would have been Neidermayer, but I'm impressed with WD's handling of his players and what he's done with the guys he had to work with.

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Benning etal can't let themselves get "locked" in that any player is perfect, none are, but I would not like to see a repetition of the Kassian affair.

Neither do I want to see something like what happened to Hodgson, groomed to fit on the team and then traded for dead weight, an unproven player.

Hank is going to be around for another 3/4 years and at the rate he is still productive, he will likely still be a top 2 center.

Sutter is signed for another 5 years, but he is not going to be comparable to top NHL centers, 3rd line for sure, marginal 2nd. But he can play wing.

Horvat looks to be a version of Kesler, maybe that is what Gillis was thinking when he traded for him, a replacement for a player he was going to move. But Kesler really only had two good years on the score board, mostly because he played on the best PP in the league.

McCann has a great shot, but then so did/does Fox, both players are very similar and one is in that age range the Nucks want and a little bigger. Whatever Fox did in junior sure is sticking to him like flies on sh**, to bad, I would like to see him get a chance for a few games. Maybe McCann could be moved to wing or, heaven forbid, traded.

If this is the shape of the rebuild, with the center positions locked up, this team is in deep, deep trouble.

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I'm just not understanding it. The Canucks could have picked up some extra help for free but did not do it. They know Sutter will be out for an extended period of time as are Sbisa, Hamhuis, and maybe Miller, The rest of the team seems like they are the walking wounded and management doesn't go into the waiver wire. Stoll, Gagner and Gomez were all available at a cheap one year contract so what is it? Is the tank on? 

Both Horvat nor McCann are second line centers, Their confidence level has got to be pretty low right now Neother player seems like they know how to deal with the other team's players. I'm starting to wonder if they are indeed that good in Benning's eyes or are they here simply because they need to fill that roster spot. Horvat at best should be learning the on the third or forth line line while McCann should probably still be in junior. Willie flat out said that they were resting McCann so he can last a full season, doesn't that say enough that McCann should not be in the NHL right now? The idea of speeding up developement is a great idea and all but with why are they not doing it with players in the system who seem like they are more ready? When you look at our rookies Virtanen, McCann, Beartschi, and to some extent Hutton, the rookie doing the best point per game wise is Sven. Both Sven and McCann have 11 points but McCann played 4 more games. Also McCann's production seems to be dropping off while Sven's is trending upwards. Sven was developed in the AHL. I don't understand this skip at step and shove into the NHL idea. Kesler, Bieksa, Hansen, Burrows and they turned out to be great, even the Sedins spent time in an AHL equivalent after being drafted,

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