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To trade or not to trade, that is the question (discussion)


J.I.A.H.N

Trade Deadline Questions  

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So, I just loved the game the other night versus Tampa Bay......Screamed at the refs (didn't we all) and thought to myself, could I enjoy this season enough, if they continued to play this type of hockey, and to my surprise, I had absolutely no problem with the last 2 games, they played hard, got decent efforts from everyone, and I even had to say I enjoyed when Baertschi scored.........

Then the dark cloud formed above my head, and I asked myself, does this really change how I feel about how we handle the trade deadline and the outgoing vets......well I really had to search long and hard to answer what I would really like????????

Unfortunately, the conclusion I came up with was, that even if we were in the playoff race at the deadline, I still think we should move some of our vets   (Hamhuis, Vrbata, Higgins, and Prust, )

I would even go as far as trading Edler if the price was right (An 2016 1st (projected 12-18 OA), an A prospect, and a 2nd would do it for me, some say he is not worth that, some say he is worth more, but I would be happy with that at his age, but I think if we were selling off vets at the deadline, it would indicate our commitment to a rebuild, and I could suffer through the rest of the year knowing we would be filling the cupboards and picking up a high end UFA Defenseman in the summer.

I will post a couple of questions for voting.....I hope they are the right ones

In either case....Merry Christmas CDC, I hope you are all with those that you love, you are safe, and that you all know you are loved!

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14 minutes ago, SwedeHockey said:

Edler is worth a lot- but he sure isn't worth what you're asking. Not even close

Well Svede

I have been pretty hard on Edler at times, but he plays hard minutes (He is 16th in TOI per game in the league), most of that against top lines, and he is on a great contract, he is also 24th amongst all defensemen in the NHL in scoring, that makes him a very valuable #1, and in my opinion, very close to what I am suggesting.....but before you go, please vote

Merry Christmas

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Good questions, I am probably in the trade at the deadline, unless we are like 10th OA in the league again, but I don't see that happening, and don't want anymore assets walking for nothing.

As for Edler, that's a pretty good argument for Edler being a #1. Value wise, what is the current trade value of a #1, with good term?

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I know what you saying Qwijibo, but "IF" they were to sell off those UFA vets, and what Edler would bring, that is not a retool, that is a full blown rebuild, and it could hardly be considered as "slightly speeding it up" with all those 1st, 2md and 3rd round picks, including the A-prospect picked up from an Edler trade.....

As for Playoffs........any idea what the owners make off a single playoff game? A long time ago I heard it was 2 million per, got to be 6 or 8  million per by now........anyone know?

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I am for trading some of the vets even if we are in the playoff race.

-Hamhuis and Vrbata will probably bring back good returns so I'm for trading at least one of the two players. At this point, Hamhuis has become a top 6 defender for us and I think his role can be filled by someone else, i.e. Hutton, Biega, and Sbisa. Realistically, I'm expecting a late first rounder for him or a quality defensive prospect + 2nd rounder draft pick. Vrbata's goal scoring is going to be needed if this team were to make the playoffs so I wouldn't trade him unless he is part of a bigger package or if he gets us at at least a 1st round draft pick.

-Higgins and Prust will get us 4th or 5th at best. Since Higgins has not be very effective since his return, I'm for trading Higgins even for such low return but Prust has shown to be of value to the team and I'd say that if we are close to making the playoffs, we would need him more than the 4th or 5th pick that we are going to get back in return.

-I'm not sure but I don't think Edler by himself will get us 12-18 OA + an A prospect + 2nd. If we are close to the playoffs, I would not trade Edler unless it's part of a bigger package that gets us a defenceman that is better than him. For example, Edler + Vrbata for Hamonic + an A prospect/2016 1st.

 

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2 hours ago, janisahockeynut said:

So, I just loved the game the other night versus Tampa Bay......Screamed at the refs (didn't we all) and thought to myself, could I enjoy this season enough, if they continued to play this type of hockey, and to my surprise, I had absolutely no problem with the last 2 games, they played hard, got decent efforts from everyone, and I even had to say I enjoyed when Baertschi scored.........

Then the dark cloud formed above my head, and I asked myself, does this really change how I feel about how we handle the trade deadline and the outgoing vets......well I really had to search long and hard to answer what I would really like????????

Unfortunately, the conclusion I came up with was, that even if we were in the playoff race at the deadline, I still think we should move some of our vets   (Hamhuis, Vrbata, Higgins, and Prust, )

I would even go as far as trading Edler if the price was right (An 2016 1st (projected 12-18 OA), an A prospect, and a 2nd would do it for me, some say he is not worth that, some say he is worth more, but I would be happy with that at his age, but I think if we were selling off vets at the deadline, it would indicate our commitment to a rebuild, and I could suffer through the rest of the year knowing we would be filling the cupboards and picking up a high end UFA Defenseman in the summer.

I will post a couple of questions for voting.....I hope they are the right ones

In either case....Merry Christmas CDC, I hope you are all with those that you love, you are safe, and that you all know you are loved!

While I've been a vocal critic of Edler at times this season, trading him without replacing him is pointless.

And no UFA defenseman will be available this summer that had his mix of size, skill, and experience outside of Dustin Buttpin, and he's not guaranteed to be interested in signing here. 

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4 minutes ago, khay said:

I am for trading some of the vets even if we are in the playoff race.

-Hamhuis and Vrbata will probably bring back good returns so I'm for trading at least one of the two players. At this point, Hamhuis has become a top 6 defender for us and I think his role can be filled by someone else, i.e. Hutton, Biega, and Sbisa. Realistically, I'm expecting a late first rounder for him or a quality defensive prospect + 2nd rounder draft pick. Vrbata's goal scoring is going to be needed if this team were to make the playoffs so I wouldn't trade him unless he is part of a bigger package or if he gets us at at least a 1st round draft pick.

-Higgins and Prust will get us 4th or 5th at best. Since Higgins has not be very effective since his return, I'm for trading Higgins even for such low return but Prust has shown to be of value to the team and I'd say that if we are close to making the playoffs, we would need him more than the 4th or 5th pick that we are going to get back in return.

-I'm not sure but I don't think Edler by himself will get us 12-18 OA + an A prospect + 2nd. If we are close to the playoffs, I would not trade Edler unless it's part of a bigger package that gets us a defenceman that is better than him. For example, Edler + Vrbata for Hamonic + an A prospect/2016 1st.

 

Vrbata's scoring was needed last year in the playoffs too. He disappeared and will again, most likely. 

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14 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said:

Vrbata's scoring was needed last year in the playoffs too. He disappeared and will again, most likely. 

That's why I said, his goal scoring is needed for us to make the playoffs. In the playoffs, who knows if he will score or not.

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 hopefully a contender thinks vrbata can score lets ship him out  for a pick clears 5mill

  id ship hamhuis prust and weber out  clears   8.0 mill 

 as well as burrows and higgins even if we have  to retain half their salaries   that frees 3.5 in cap next yr.

 

16.5 mill in cap means we can sign 2 really decent players at free agency plus employ 3 young players 

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A few things people need to realize about trading our future UFA and current veterans for picks/prospects/future considerations, especially if we're a team that's gunning for the playoffs to better the development of our current young guys:

1) Our defence is already thin, we know that. We're currently seeing how bad it is without Hamhuis, so trading him away at the deadline for picks/prospects is going to leave us with a team similar to what we have now, which is playing below .500 and not going to make the playoffs. 

2) Edler is even a bigger part of our defence than Hamhuis, heaven forbid we trade him away and expect to be a playoff team. He's our MVP on the blueline, say what you want about his turnovers but he does FAR more good than bad and plays a very heavy 25ish minutes a night. We lose him and we're worst in the West.

That being said, if we get a top-4 defenceman in return from one of the above trades, we won't be that bad.

3) Vbrata has been a decent bottom-9 winger but we have a LOT of other wingers who can score, and in particular, Shinkaruk and Gaunce who are chomping at the bit to get some NHL time. He's heating up with Baertschi now so it'll look bad, but I think we can replace his offence internally so he'd be the best one to trade away, especially considering how many teams are looking for top-6 scoring help at the TD.

 

TL;DR - we can't replace Edler or Hamhuis minutes internally. We can replace Vbrata's offence, making him expendable. However, if we get a young top-4 defenceman out of an Edler/Hamhuis trade (obviously we'd have to give up more value) then we should do it.

 

I've been pushing for a Hamhuis + Vbrata + 2nd + Pedan for Hamonic + 4th/5th round pick for a while, makes sense for both teams. NYI get a top-4 defenceman back + defensive depth in Pedan + scoring help which is always a good thing + a very high 2nd rounder, almost a first. That's a lot of value, the best they will get, and we get an instant replacement for Hamhuis.

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1 hour ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

...

TL;DR - we can't replace Edler or Hamhuis minutes internally. We can replace Vbrata's offence, making him expendable. However, if we get a young top-4 defenceman out of an Edler/Hamhuis trade (obviously we'd have to give up more value) then we should do it.

 

I've been pushing for a Hamhuis + Vbrata + 2nd + Pedan for Hamonic + 4th/5th round pick for a while, makes sense for both teams. NYI get a top-4 defenceman back + defensive depth in Pedan + scoring help which is always a good thing + a very high 2nd rounder, almost a first. That's a lot of value, the best they will get, and we get an instant replacement for Hamhuis.

Agreed with your assessment on the defence, trading Edler would only be worthwhile if it's for an upgrade on that same position. 

on the trade proposal for Hamonic, I doubt NYI would want to trade Hamonic for 2 UFAs granted it does come with Pedan and a 2nd (NYI actually drafted Pedan fyi). I would assume that NYI would want a more established younger type of player that can integrate in their lineup now

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I seem to remember that the Isles clearly stated that they wanted (at least) a top 4 D-man in return for Hamonic. Since we have brought up Edler as a possible trade, this seems to me to be a good option. Yes, we are thin on defense; getting Hamonic back keeps this from happening. Both of them get fresh starts elsewhere, which could be a win-win for both teams. I wouldn't even mind adding one of Jensen/Labate/Friesen to sweeten it, especially if we could get them to add, say, a 5th/6th.

Others to trade - Higgins (for anything we can get); Weber (3rd/4th?); Prust (4th/6th range); Miller (2nd). Hammer, I don't think, will fetch enough to make a trade feasible, again with what we don't have on D (depth).

I don't trade Vrbata; I explained this at length in another post, but boils down to goals for (the one thing he's good at), and the beginning chemistry he seems to have with McCann (player development).

I'm not sure about all the cap numbers, but I know this has got to be close to $10M, if not a little over that.

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Higgins can go at anytime.

At the deadline, Vrbata, Hammer, Miller, if the deals are there, and also Burrows as I have only recently become convinced that it may be time for him to move on.

The number of players we trade depends on the depth of youth we have ready, I'm expecting Cole to come on in the new year, perhaps Hunter, if Jake has a good WJC he might stay in Vancouver, so let some of these guys step up and the odd player can come back in the deals as long as we also get picks.

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8 hours ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

A few things people need to realize about trading our future UFA and current veterans for picks/prospects/future considerations, especially if we're a team that's gunning for the playoffs to better the development of our current young guys:

1) Our defence is already thin, we know that. We're currently seeing how bad it is without Hamhuis, so trading him away at the deadline for picks/prospects is going to leave us with a team similar to what we have now, which is playing below .500 and not going to make the playoffs. 

2) Edler is even a bigger part of our defence than Hamhuis, heaven forbid we trade him away and expect to be a playoff team. He's our MVP on the blueline, say what you want about his turnovers but he does FAR more good than bad and plays a very heavy 25ish minutes a night. We lose him and we're worst in the West.

That being said, if we get a top-4 defenceman in return from one of the above trades, we won't be that bad.

3) Vbrata has been a decent bottom-9 winger but we have a LOT of other wingers who can score, and in particular, Shinkaruk and Gaunce who are chomping at the bit to get some NHL time. He's heating up with Baertschi now so it'll look bad, but I think we can replace his offence internally so he'd be the best one to trade away, especially considering how many teams are looking for top-6 scoring help at the TD.

 

TL;DR - we can't replace Edler or Hamhuis minutes internally. We can replace Vbrata's offence, making him expendable. However, if we get a young top-4 defenceman out of an Edler/Hamhuis trade (obviously we'd have to give up more value) then we should do it.

 

I've been pushing for a Hamhuis + Vbrata + 2nd + Pedan for Hamonic + 4th/5th round pick for a while, makes sense for both teams. NYI get a top-4 defenceman back + defensive depth in Pedan + scoring help which is always a good thing + a very high 2nd rounder, almost a first. That's a lot of value, the best they will get, and we get an instant replacement for Hamhuis.

That's the way a GM has to look at it.  What the team looks like after the trade.  Vrbata, Prust, Weber are possible UFA moves because they can be replaced.  A Hamhuis move would depend on Hutton's development but even if that goes as well as possible, it leaves them awfully thin (and vulnerable) on the back end for next season.  It puts JB under tremendous pressure and in a weak position to negotiate a trade for a replacement.  As JB has said, 29 other teams are looking to improve their D too.  Free agency can be a crap shoot.

Having said that, I don't see any way around picking up a top 4 D in the offseason.

 

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we stayed status quo last deadline kept our ufa's got destroyed in the first round and lost players as ufa's for nothing. Lets hope Benning has learned and he moves Vrbata, weber and or bartkowski, Prust and Possibly Hamhuis for returns.

Gaunce, Shinkaruk/grenier/virtanen, Biega and or pedan can be replacements.

 

Also look at moving Higgins

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1 hour ago, Yotes said:

we stayed status quo last deadline kept our ufa's got destroyed in the first round and lost players as ufa's for nothing. Lets hope Benning has learned and he moves Vrbata, weber and or bartkowski, Prust and Possibly Hamhuis for returns.

Gaunce, Shinkaruk/grenier/virtanen, Biega and or pedan can be replacements.

 

Also look at moving Higgins

Moving Weber seems like a pointless task, unless he's needed as an extra in a deal for cap space purposes. I'm sure a bunch of GMs are dying to have his elite PP talents! Sarcasm aside...

There's only 3 options for Vrbata: Resign him, trade him, or let him walk. Benning will not let him go away for nothing, I think that's fair to say. I don't see Benning resigning him either, he was always a short term piece. I think Benning likes what he sees from the current prospect pool and upcoming free agency. So yes, I expect Vrbata to be moved come February, one way or another.

Prust is an interesting player. He's been painfully decent since returning from his injury. Defensively reliable, but doesn't bring much offensively. He's had a few interesting fights, but I believe we have prospects who might have more fire in their hearts to impress the club (like Pedan). I think Benning will try to trade him, but won't be surprised if he gets another year in this club (with a more acceptable salary for his current skillset).

I would love to see Hamhuis retire as a Canuck, but I think there's a strong chance he gets traded if a team is desperate for his veteran presence. 

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10 hours ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

A few things people need to realize about trading our future UFA and current veterans for picks/prospects/future considerations, especially if we're a team that's gunning for the playoffs to better the development of our current young guys:

1) Our defence is already thin, we know that. We're currently seeing how bad it is without Hamhuis, so trading him away at the deadline for picks/prospects is going to leave us with a team similar to what we have now, which is playing below .500 and not going to make the playoffs. 

2) Edler is even a bigger part of our defence than Hamhuis, heaven forbid we trade him away and expect to be a playoff team. He's our MVP on the blueline, say what you want about his turnovers but he does FAR more good than bad and plays a very heavy 25ish minutes a night. We lose him and we're worst in the West.

That being said, if we get a top-4 defenceman in return from one of the above trades, we won't be that bad.

3) Vbrata has been a decent bottom-9 winger but we have a LOT of other wingers who can score, and in particular, Shinkaruk and Gaunce who are chomping at the bit to get some NHL time. He's heating up with Baertschi now so it'll look bad, but I think we can replace his offence internally so he'd be the best one to trade away, especially considering how many teams are looking for top-6 scoring help at the TD.

 

TL;DR - we can't replace Edler or Hamhuis minutes internally. We can replace Vbrata's offence, making him expendable. However, if we get a young top-4 defenceman out of an Edler/Hamhuis trade (obviously we'd have to give up more value) then we should do it.

 

I've been pushing for a Hamhuis + Vbrata + 2nd + Pedan for Hamonic + 4th/5th round pick for a while, makes sense for both teams. NYI get a top-4 defenceman back + defensive depth in Pedan + scoring help which is always a good thing + a very high 2nd rounder, almost a first. That's a lot of value, the best they will get, and we get an instant replacement for Hamhuis.

The islanders are one of the deepest teams in the league. They aren't taking a bunch of scraps for hamonic. Why do people keep suggesting this kinda crap. Even though its large, 20 pounds of $&!#......is still $&!#

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