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We want green for start of 2016-17


John Tortorella

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10 hours ago, John Tortorella said:

Please and thank you. 

Horvat and baer doing amazing

starts vrbata in ot with bo. 

Virtannen plays amazing in 1st. 

Limited ice. 

 

 

 

 

Plays higgins. 

I am completely on board with Green being our next coach.  He's familiar with our prospect and seems to know how to get the most out of them.  Just as WD is getting players he's familiar with from his medicine hat days, Green is familiar with players already in our pool.  When the farm team coaches make the jump to the NHL you see a lot of later round players grow into solid NHLers.  We've experienced this with AV bringing up Burrows, Hansen, Bieksa.  We've seen the same thing with, Bylsma in Pits, John Cooper in TB bringing up his AHL players and now with Blashill in Detroit.

But as much as much as I am on board with Green, I can't really agree with the all points you made,  Virtanen had limited minutes due to PK, and it was his first game back, the OT seemed to work out and Baertschi had a great opportunity to score.  And as much as we all want Higgins gone he's on his last 40 games (or less) in this league and are giving him a few final shots at the can. After all if we can get a return for him, that's better than having to waive him and have some of his salary on our books.  

 

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4 minutes ago, Down by the River said:

I read your post, realized you didn't understand correlation from causation, and moved on. You have no idea whether the players "blossoming in front of our eyes" are doing so because of WD's coaching 'strategy'. I'm not saying they are playing well in spite of WD, I'm saying that you are acting as if the players are some amoeboid blobs that are dependent on coaching to have success. Great players do well regardless of coaching. 

By your logic, when Bo struggles, is that because of WD? If you want to attribute WD as the cause of Bo's success, you must also acknowledge that any failure must also be due to WD. So why did Bo struggle for 2+ months?

Find another coach in the league that thinks Dorsett deserves 17 minutes of ice time. You can't evaluate WD solely on how he's bringing the young guys along.

this will go for about three more posts before he tells you your reading comprehension skills aren't on par with his.

 

at such time he owns you:frantic:

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not a chance, but I will say one thing I think Willie is way too nice towards the players. He is like a social service worker, you make a mistake, "its okay Weber, I know you can do better next shift" makes another mistake, "It's okay Weber I know your working hard and that's all that matters to me" sounds like what Willie says, HELL if you listen to his post game comments, its always along the lines of. uhhhhhh mhhhhhhhhhh uhhhhhhhhh he's working hard uhhhhhhhh mhhhhhhhhhh uhhhhhhhhh I know he is battling, uhhhhhhhhhh mmmmmm uhhhhhhh Higgins is battling. 

In short, the guy is way too nice to players and not nice to the youngens. The veterans he treats them like gods, says comments like UHHHHHHHHHHH mmmmmmmm uhhhhhhhh Burrow's is working hard really? this is the NHL we need results Willie, look at the great coaches like Joel Quenville, if you are not producing eg points your benched. Bickell perfect example, but quenville understands the importance of giving young guys a oppertunity to show what they have. Unlike Willie who played Shink, Guance and Griener how much when he had them? It's a team controlled by the veterans, heck they ran Torts out of town and now Willie is just too scared or too nice to say to bench the guys who need to benched, eg Weber, Higgins and at times even Burrows. Message needs to be sent but this guy continues to say the same one liners on his post game shows, and again Patterson use to ask the questions that mattered, like why is Dorsett playing on the powerplay, so they got him fired. 

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20 minutes ago, Down by the River said:

I read your post, realized you didn't understand correlation from causation, and moved on. You have no idea whether the players "blossoming in front of our eyes" are doing so because of WD's coaching 'strategy'. I'm not saying they are playing well in spite of WD, I'm saying that you are acting as if the players are some amoeboid blobs that are dependent on coaching to have success. Great players do well regardless of coaching. 

By your logic, when Bo struggles, is that because of WD? If you want to attribute WD as the cause of Bo's success, you must also acknowledge that any failure must also be due to WD. So why did Bo struggle for 2+ months?

Find another coach in the league that thinks Dorsett deserves 17 minutes of ice time. You can't evaluate WD solely on how he's bringing the young guys along.

You may have read my post but the quote of yours I just highlighted tells me you've never played a competitive sport in your life and don't understand the value of coaching.

Sorry but that quote makes my comment fact.

The second quote I highlighted means you should re-read my post.

 

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Could we possibly let Gulutzen go, or maybe he wants to be a head coach in some capacity be it Europe or Ahl, as being the head coach gets you the better opportunity to get a head coach position in the nhl. Sullivan in Pitts is a recent person who was an assistant for  along time, took ahl gig and got promoted to head coach.

Promote Green to the Canucks as an assistant under Willie? Could be a grooming season to give him the head coach gig the year following. 

Coach WD is in his 2nd yr of a 3 yr deal correct? So likely he gets extended or he goes into next year in his final year of the deal, which I think we should do, let him play out his deal before he gets an extension. Especially with Green as a possible replacement

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1 hour ago, Down by the River said:

Criticizing Green's record is pretty unfair when you consider how depleted his lineup has been and the fact that guys like Shink, Grenier, and Pedan keep getting called up to play limited/no games and then fly back to Utica jet-lagged.

Where did I criticise his record and how come it is fine to quote mitigating circumstances in defence of Green in a thread that ignores the same kind of mitigating circumstances which apply to WD?

The hypocrisy is rife on here.

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13 minutes ago, alfstonker said:

Where did I criticise his record and how come it is fine to quote mitigating circumstances in defence of Green in a thread that ignores the same kind of mitigating circumstances which apply to WD?

The hypocrisy is rife on here.

So why did you take two screen shots of Utica's record? What was your point of doing that?

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9 hours ago, Mattrek said:

 

While he may not have a choice that is completely besides my point and besides what you stated. You said the young guys are playing the way they are, because they're sheltered. I disagreed and pointed out them being put against the Stamkos line tonight. So are they really actually sheltered or not?

Well, to jump into an ongoing coversation ...

Last season Bo was sheltered for a long time.  He played very restricted minutes (much to the consternation of many on CDC) and it was very late in the season when he started getting considerable ice time against good lines. 

So yes, last year as a rookie Bo was definitely sheltered.  This season he hasn't been.  That's largely due to injuries and partly because of the improvement Bo made last season while Willie brought him along slowly.

Baertschi is 23 and on his 2nd team, having had his career spiral downwards with his first team.  Willie has moved him up and down the lineup and even made him a healthy scratch at times.  Now Baertschi is playing, in the eyes of most who post here or write in the media, much better.  It's hard to say WD has done badly by Baertschi.

There's no question WD shelters youth far more than those on CDC who want to get rid of the vets want.  That doesn't mean all youth will always be sheltered, but if people think our young players are coming along well, then why fire the coach when the team is doing as well as most expected and the young players are developing nicely? 

At times development will inlcude pushing them, at times giving them more responsibility and playing time, but much of the time it will mean bringing them along slowly, often with limited minutes and often in limited situations.  I disagree with many on CDC who have wanted the vets all to be gone and the kids to be playing big minutes with big responsibility.

But then, I don't care much about how the team does this year.  I want the kids to be good 2, 3, 5 and maybe even 10 years from now.  And to that extent I'm not worried that the kids are getting too little playing time and responsibility at the NHL level while they're developing.  The NHL is a big leap from junior and it's fine with me if they get to make that progression slowly.

WD has also shown he'll play new new players if he thinks they're ready.  Ben Hutton gets a good bit of playing time even as a rookie. 

I too think it doesn't make sense to say the kids are developing into real good players, but argue that their coach doesn't have a clue and is developing them badly.  That doesn't mean one has to agree that what Willie does is always best (we all have things we'd like to see done differently) but imo those that call him stupid and want him fired aren't looking at the big picture (the proverbial forest for the trees.)

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3 hours ago, Boudrias said:

Solid post. WD has had to deal with a banged up d-core all year. A d-core that was not solid to begin with. I cringed last night when Weber was on the ice with 2 minutes to go but that is a Canuck reality. Then Craig Simpson chirps in about the Twins sitting when he has no real idea of what detail goes into the coach's decision.

WD is bang on when he talks about the 'process'. The Canucks are rebuilding and that requires a even keel coach. The fans on here have little idea of how Desjardin runs practice or deals with players one on one. Torts was another type all together. WD protects his youth to a degree. He has shown Horvat a big vote of confidence this season as he works through his sophomore season. What he did for Virtanen last night was classic coaching.

Coaching of this roster is all about the process of integrating youth into the NHL to form a new core to replace the Twins who will be gone in 2 to 3 years. It is all about establishing that timeline. It is about moving vets out to create the space and complimenting the young talent.

Much of this is more Benning and Linden's domain but it appears to me that all three have a clear plan. I have advocated a full rebuild for a couple of years now and that has a level of impatience which is not smart. Benning is smart. Still I hope that he does move vets out running into the February trade deadline. He will have substantial CAP space come June and he could sign UFA's to compliment and vet presence after the February sell off.      

Thanks, and to you as well. Highlighted areas are bang on. He and JB/TL are taking a 'measured' approach to integrating the young players (as much as they can with the recent injuries) in order to ensure that in 2-3 years they are READY to be leading this team. That doesn't mean throwing them in the snake pit right now to see if they can somehow jump out.

It has become a cliche term but it is indeed a process, something many here don't get. Indeed many responses seem to think, oh ya those young guys play great because of their talent not WD, lol. When I hear that I know these people have never played a competitive sport in their life. They have no idea, as you say, about off and on ice coaching. They have no idea how much tape these guys watch together, they have no idea what happens in practice (what coaches help them focus on), they have no idea often why WD is limiting ice / trying to 'pick' his matchups - its all to build the player up.

We saw what happened when McCann went head to head against Getzlaf right? I suppose many here think McCann should then go head to head with Kopitar, Bergeron, Thornton, Toews cause he's ready for that and won't lose all his confidence in a week right? Or heck lets play Pedan vs Patrick Kane, or Ovechkin, because you know, he's already at Chara's mid career level, and nah it won't affect his confidence!

I honestly can't believe the level of stupidity from some who call themselves hockey fans, I think many here just like bitching

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46 minutes ago, McCannon said:

You may have read my post but the quote of yours I just highlighted tells me you've never played a competitive sport in your life and don't understand the value of coaching.

Sorry but that quote makes my comment fact.

The second quote I highlighted means you should re-read my post.

 

 

You have three logical fallacies here:

(1) Strawman logic: nowhere did I say that coaching doesn't help or that coaching isn't valuable. If this was my opinion, I wouldn't care if WD was fired or not.

(2) Ad hominem: Even though you're wrong that I have never played a competitive sport, even if you were correct about this point, it wouldn't in itself make you right

(3) False cause: Again, just because two things are correlated, it doesn't mean that 'a' caused 'b'. You can find young players on every team in the league that are doing well. However, not every team in the league has a coach of equal quality. 

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8 minutes ago, Down by the River said:

You have three logical fallacies here:

(1) Strawman logic: nowhere did I say that coaching doesn't help or that coaching isn't valuable. If this was my opinion, I wouldn't care if WD was fired or not.

(2) Ad hominem: Even though you're wrong that I have never played a competitive sport, even if you were correct about this point, it wouldn't in itself make you right

(3) False cause: Again, just because two things are correlated, it doesn't mean that 'a' caused 'b'. You can find young players on every team in the league that are doing well. However, not every team in the league has a coach of equal quality. 

Go play a sport past high school and you'd know what I am talking about

Case closed

Maybe go tell a brain surgeon they are doing their jobs wrong even though you're not a brain surgeon, since you know, all that non experience doing brain surgery makes you an expert from watching surgery tv shows.

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2 hours ago, McCannon said:

It has no bearing that willie has no choice? You think Bo wasn't sheltered as a rookie? Interesting, because WD said he was

You think he wouldn't continue to be if Sutter was playing? Of course it matters. And I also said Bo is a bit of an anomoly because he already had a pretty mature game coming into the NHL - what about EVERY OTHER PLAYER I LISTED BUDDY

But please continue to cherry pick arguments - sign of the fact you've lost the debate.

 

Here let me lay this out for you. You stated clearly that the young guys are playing the way they are because they're sheltered. I pointed out playing against Stamkos is not being sheltered. You made a statement, the reasoning behind why Willie is playing the young guys against tough opponents is completely irrelevant to what you said. Now do you actually think playing against Stamkos line is being "sheltered" or not? Or do you think that maybe just maybe they aren't sheltered and are improving their games to be able to compete with tougher opponents? If you make a definitive statement you should be prepared to back it up with evidence.

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1 minute ago, Mattrek said:

 

Here let me lay this out for you. You stated clearly that the young guys are playing the way they are because they're sheltered. I pointed out playing against Stamkos is not being sheltered. You made a statement, the reasoning behind why Willie is playing the young guys against tough opponents is completely irrelevant to what you said. Now do you actually think playing against Stamkos line is being "sheltered" or not? Or do you think that maybe just maybe they aren't sheltered and are improving their games to be able to compete with tougher opponents? If you make a definitive statement you should be prepared to back it up with evidence.

Go learn to read

WOW! Our education system is completely failing

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5 minutes ago, McCannon said:

Go learn to read

WOW! Our education system is completely failing

 

You've obviously "won" the argument when you resort to name calling and insults *eyeroll* There's no need to waste anymore time then I already have with you.

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I was all in favor of this since we acquired Willie.  But over the past few games I'm starting to wonder if thats the best approach.  Willie has really won me over despite his initial stubborness.  I think the real question is how long will willie coach for before retirement?  If we could rock Willie for 6-7 more years is it worth keeping him?  I for one assumed willie was just place holder for green but with all the young tiger connections and the emergence of our youth's development under willie.  Makes me wonder if he might actually be "our guy". Big thing though is his age and how long he can remain a good active coach?  

 

I was an early member of the is it time to replace willie a few months back.  But I have seen positive signs from more then just bo now and he is adapting his coaching to our initial demands.  

Is this the curious case of Willie?  Green or Willie. I donno.  Green screams future HOF worthy coach but thats all just potential.  I guess will see what shakes.  Green's contract is up at the end of this year I thought I heard? if so will management be forced to make a decision or will Green patiently wait in the wings and sign another 2 year ahl coaching deal?  

So many questions. I guess will leave it up to JB and crew. They after all made the goalie decision and that has worked out well for us.

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35 minutes ago, McCannon said:

Go play a sport past high school and you'd know what I am talking about

Case closed

Maybe go tell a brain surgeon they are doing their jobs wrong even though you're not a brain surgeon, since you know, all that non experience doing brain surgery makes you an expert from watching surgery tv shows.

I've played hockey at almost every level and a ton of my old team mates and players i've played against are currently in the NHL so that argument doesn't work, since i don't necessarily agree with you.  I don't think WD has handled the Baertschi situation very well and I have posted this in the Baertschi thread but I can put something together again.

 Confidence was key heading into the season with baertschi.  Coaching and the roles you put a player in plays an important role in a building a young, highly skilled players, confidence, 

Baertschi had stated this,

"He knows my style of play," said Baertschi of Green. "He knows where he can push me, push me to my limits during games. He knows what I need to work on. He knows what I'm really good at so he just puts me in situations where I can succeed. So, of course, that's a huge help, too.”

Green had stated this

"He was a dominant player at our (AHL) level and all signs indicated that he’s ready for the next jump," Green said Wednesday.  You have to give players the opportunity and it should be a prolonged look to give the player confidence that you believe in him. I have a lot of belief in Sven. He has a chance to be a top-six forward who can play on your power play and is a guy who deserves the chance.”

And it took luck, through injuries for WD to figure this out but even he is admitting this.

"I think the big thing for Beartschi was getting a chance on the powerplay, that just made him feel like...that was his game, that's what he was waiting for, that's what he is excited about. And I think that helped him take off offensively"

It shouldn't take half a season and injuries for a player to finally get that opportunity.  The guy is on a one year, show me if you can make it deal.  Without our significant injuries can we honestly say that Sven would have gotten a fair shake.  WD should have been doing everything in his power to be giving him that opportunity, it's not like Sven wasn't producing, he started the year off with 7 points in his first 14 games.  He did have things to improve on but even WD said himself that he was strong defensively from the get go.  

Now as I said in the other thread, we don't know what was going on behind the scenes.  WD and Baertschi could have been on the same page and a really good communication between each other.  If that's the case and Baertschi is understanding and not taking things to heart then that's all good.  But as fans we can only see what gets reported.  Things like

“It’s not the try league, as I’ve said, it’s the get-it-done league,” Desjardins said. “You can’t do anything.  We have to win games. If guys aren’t performing at that level, then we have to take them out.”

Follows up with an, “Life goes on,” was the response from the chilled Baertschi.

or a quotes from last year like

"I don't even know what the hell is going on.....I thought I played well against Anaheim. I took the bad penalty but I was playing with emotion and I was trying to do the right thing. I played a good game against Buffalo and then that happens. So, honestly, I can’t tell you. I don’t know. I was if not more shocked than anyone.... I came in and I had high expectations… it’s tough to score when you’re riding the bike."

To me that doesn't speak communication, that doesn't speak development, that speaks, i'm hear to win, whether is be a rookie playing, or higgins/dorsett/weber.  Remember last year if WD has his way Bo wouldn't have even made the team.  Wd stated this year that Bo's play last year made him more open to having 19 year olds in the NHL.  So without JB interference the team this year would have been iced with stale vets and Bo would have been a year behind in his NHL development.  

The WD motto is if they don't help us win in the NOW, then they wont be in the line up.  That's short term thinking an not long term player development focus,  But again we don't know since we're not in the dressing room.

WD is a NHL coach,  he's a good NHL coach, and he's not the only NHL coach that is stubborn and plays the players he's familiar with. AV, Cooper, Hartley, Carlyle, Lemaire, Torts, Sutter are all known for their stubborness as well, and all of them have had some great NHL success.  So it's not saying that WD isn't a good option for the canucks.  One thing to point out though, is that very rarely that when nhl teams go through a transition, the head coach makes it to the end.  Hawks, Kings, and Pens, all had a new coach come in at the end of that teams transition, only to go on and win a cup within the next 2 years.

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11 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

I've played hockey at almost every level and a ton of my old team mates and players i've played against are currently in the NHL so that argument doesn't work, since i don't necessarily agree with you.  I don't think WD has handled the Baertschi situation very well and I have posted this in the Baertschi thread but I can put something together again.

 Confidence was key heading into the season with baertschi.  Coaching and the roles you put a player in plays an important role in a building a young, highly skilled players, confidence, 

Baertschi had stated this,

"He knows my style of play," said Baertschi of Green. "He knows where he can push me, push me to my limits during games. He knows what I need to work on. He knows what I'm really good at so he just puts me in situations where I can succeed. So, of course, that's a huge help, too.”

Green had stated this

"He was a dominant player at our (AHL) level and all signs indicated that he’s ready for the next jump," Green said Wednesday.  You have to give players the opportunity and it should be a prolonged look to give the player confidence that you believe in him. I have a lot of belief in Sven. He has a chance to be a top-six forward who can play on your power play and is a guy who deserves the chance.”

And it took luck, through injuries for WD to figure this out but even he is admitting this.

"I think the big thing for Beartschi was getting a chance on the powerplay, that just made him feel like...that was his game, that's what he was waiting for, that's what he is excited about. And I think that helped him take off offensively"

It shouldn't take half a season and injuries for a player to finally get that opportunity.  The guy is on a one year, show me if you can make it deal.  Without our significant injuries can we honestly say that Sven would have gotten a fair shake.  WD should have been doing everything in his power to be giving him that opportunity, it's not like Sven wasn't producing, he started the year off with 7 points in his first 14 games.  He did have things to improve on but even WD said himself that he was strong defensively from the get go.  

Now as I said in the other thread, we don't know what was going on behind the scenes.  WD and Baertschi could have been on the same page and a really good communication between each other.  If that's the case and Baertschi is understanding and not taking things to heart then that's all good.  But as fans we can only see what gets reported.  Things like

“It’s not the try league, as I’ve said, it’s the get-it-done league,” Desjardins said. “You can’t do anything.  We have to win games. If guys aren’t performing at that level, then we have to take them out.”

Follows up with an, “Life goes on,” was the response from the chilled Baertschi.

or a quotes from last year like

"I don't even know what the hell is going on.....I thought I played well against Anaheim. I took the bad penalty but I was playing with emotion and I was trying to do the right thing. I played a good game against Buffalo and then that happens. So, honestly, I can’t tell you. I don’t know. I was if not more shocked than anyone.... I came in and I had high expectations… it’s tough to score when you’re riding the bike."

To me that doesn't speak communication, that doesn't speak development, that speaks, i'm hear to win, whether is be a rookie playing, or higgins/dorsett/weber.  Remember last year if WD has his way Bo wouldn't have even made the team.  Wd stated this year that Bo's play last year made him more open to having 19 year olds in the NHL.  So without JB interference the team this year would have been iced with stale vets and Bo would have been a year behind in his NHL development.  

The WD motto is if they don't help us win in the NOW, then they wont be in the line up.  That's short term thinking an not long term player development focus,  But again we don't know since we're not in the dressing room.

WD is a NHL coach,  he's a good NHL coach, and he's not the only NHL coach that is stubborn and plays the players he's familiar with. AV, Cooper, Hartley, Carlyle, Lemaire, Torts, Sutter are all known for their stubborness as well, and all of them have had some great NHL success.  So it's not saying that WD isn't a good option for the canucks.  One thing to point out though, is that very rarely that when nhl teams go through a transition, the head coach makes it to the end.  Hawks, Kings, and Pens, all had a new coach come in at the end of that teams transition, only to go on and win a cup within the next 2 years.

Coaches develop too. You are suggesting all these players are playing well in SPITE of the coaching sorry that is nonsense

So why couldn't all of our players play well in spite of Tortarella?

I am not saying its all WD but you can't suggest his coaching is not an important factor in getting points across and improvement.

1. Just because Baer said he didn't get it in that interview doesn't mean the next day he wasn't shown in the video

2. You tell me you haven't see Baer's compete level in the corners improve under WD? You think his 200 ft play hasn't improved since he got here? Did he just decide that? Or was it pointed out to him in video?

3. You use hypotheticals to say WD Isn't a good coach - would Sven have got the shot. Well no wingers are hurt so yes and the reason he is getting the ice is because he is playing the way the coaches want him to after drilling it into him

4. As for Bo, of course WD would have been hesitant, he'd never seen him play, he's new in the league and has a desire to win. As you saw with Bo, as Bo started showing he could handle more he gave him more responsibility. You want to disconnect where Bo and all these players are today from how they've been brought along

For someone who states they've played competitively you have very little respect for coaching and seem to think its more of an impediment.

I disagree with this view. Players development is the coaches responsibility. Players are developing. Anyone who's played at the level you claim to would typically understand that, its surprising you don't.

When I was drafted and the few games I got in the pros tells me coaching is a very big part of how players develop. We agree to disagree

It's funny, apparently Green is great at developing players so I guess he's allowed to get credit for our young guys, but when we see drastic improvements right in front of our faces within 40 games, WD get's none of the same respect, because hell, its not coaching, its the player right?

Laughable

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