Bettman urges new arena in Calgary

[ForsbergTheGreat]

40 minutes ago, gurn said:

They run the flames as a for profit business, let private industry pay for it, either that or let the city reap the "net" profit until the original outlay is recouped, plus interest. Then fine by me.

You just don’t understand, there is direct and indirect benefits.  You’re too caught up in hating the rich mentality.  Do flames get any of the profit from bars when they fill up the place on game day?  Do flames get any profit from hotels of touring fans.  Do flames get any profit from the restaurants fans go to before puck drop.  Let’s not forget the job creation needed to build a project like this.  Come playoffs, the city transforms under the flames.  It’s not even just profit from local business’ it’s quality of life.  A sports franchise like the flames bring so much to this city, think about what this team brings to the people, the joy, the talk, the pride, the entertainment.  Is there a profit value you can place on those intangible variables?  Even if you could, flames don’t reap those benefits.  Now that sports franchise is in need of a new arena and the city and the people that get so much out of that team, want to turn their back on it.  It’s not like they are asking for 100% of the funds to be coming from taxpayer, It’s a portion.  It’s also not like they just built a new arena and now want a shinier one.  It’s a need that is going to have to happen, whether it’s now, tomorrow or 5-10 years from now.

The other option is Ownership could just pack up and move to another city,  Quebec just built new rink in hopes get a NHL franchise.  How would Calgary look without the Flames. 

 

http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news/a-look-at-canadian-stadiums-built-with-public-funds

[Gurn]

I understand perfectly well. Owners want someone else to pay part of the money to build the owner a new arena. I just disagree with the idea of helping out billionaires with some working stiffs' taxes.

  You seem to be a fan of trickle down economics, and all I've ever seen that do is get people wet after the rich p on them.

 If it is such deal for the  owners of the team I'm sure a bank will loan them the money.

And the whole give them money or they will leave thing is nothing short of extortion, I don't play that game.

[BCNeil]

Bettman is out to lunch, if he thinks an allstar game or the draft is a good reason to spend a half billion.

 

[WHL rocks]

He's right and a new Arena in Calgary will get built.

This is part of the process to get Calgarians prepared for the billion dollar bill they'll have to pay.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

22 hours ago, gurn said:

I understand perfectly well. Owners want someone else to pay part of the money to build the owner a new arena. I just disagree with the idea of helping out billionaires with some working stiffs' taxes.

  You seem to be a fan of trickle down economics, and all I've ever seen that do is get people wet after the rich p on them.

 If it is such deal for the  owners of the team I'm sure a bank will loan them the money.

And the whole give them money or they will leave thing is nothing short of extortion, I don't play that game.

 

Ah I see “screw the rich let them be on their own, but I don’t mind reaping free the benefits that they bring to the city”

 

14 hours ago, WHL rocks said:

He's right and a new Arena in Calgary will get built.

This is part of the process to get Calgarians prepared for the billion dollar bill they'll have to pay.

 

Except no billion $ bill is being proposed to the Calgary tax payers.  In fact no one outside the direct community is effected and their taxes do not increase.  The Majority of the public fund proposed is to be coming out of the CRL fund.  A fund that already exists and the city uses for other projects.  Its purpose is to help spark development into communities. For instance “Since 2007, CMLC has committed approximately $357 million to East Village infrastructure and development programs. This in turn has attracted $2.4 billion of planned development (so far) that’s expected to deliver $725 million of CRL revenues.”

Ownership is proposing to investing 200 million of their own money and raise an additional 250 million of ticket taxes.  A percent of taxes from tickets sold to people who use the facility in the future will go towards the cost.  You don’t use the facility, you don’t pay.  The Fieldhouse is a top of the line training facility that citizen of Calgary can use.  It’s not a driver for the football stadium or the hockey rink, it’s main benefit is to citizens of Calgary.    

http://calgarynext.com/financing-plan.php

In fairness the proposed building doesn't include demolition cost of the current site which is said to be around 50-250 million. and all budgets always seem to go over...never under.  But what is being proposed is going to have next to little affect on the every citizens.  The only people that have their taxes increased are the people that live in that area, but it's not unreasonable to expect, as their property values will see benefits.  Same situation happened with my old place when the LRT was being built in the west

And this story is getting blow out of proportion,  it's not like Nenshi was saying, it's not happening.  He agrees about building the project and says that the discussions about it are on ongoing,  just felt it didn't need someone else's opinion on the matter.  

[Gurn]

"Ah I see “screw the rich let them be on their own, but I don’t mind reaping free the benefits that they bring to the city”

 

Check your glasses, because you seem to have a problem seeing anything but your point of view.

There is no such thing as 'free benefits" somebody always pays, I'd prefer it not be the average working guy.

As I said - if it is such a great idea, go to the bank and get a loan.

Do you believe that if the flames moved out of Calgary that all those people that went to the games would just stay at home and do nothing with the money they did not spend? Isn't that money  called discretionary spending and most of it would merely be spent on something else? Perhaps a new car or extra meals out, bowling, new couch etc.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

1 hour ago, gurn said:

"Ah I see “screw the rich let them be on their own, but I don’t mind reaping free the benefits that they bring to the city”

 

Check your glasses, because you seem to have a problem seeing anything but your point of view.

There is no such thing as 'free benefits" somebody always pays, I'd prefer it not be the average working guy.

As I said - if it is such a great idea, go to the bank and get a loan.

Do you believe that if the flames moved out of Calgary that all those people that went to the games would just stay at home and do nothing with the money they did not spend? Isn't that money  called discretionary spending and most of it would merely be spent on something else? Perhaps a new car or extra meals out, bowling, new couch etc.

Do you own a place in West Village?

No? oh good is doesn’t affect you, not impacting you “the working man”

Yes? Good watch your property value rise.  I did the same when the LRT was build west.

You keep stating banks giving them a loan?  You seem to have that mixed up with thinking the return on the investment is based on profit from the building again you are forgetting the local benefits.  CS&E aren’t going to see a share of all the profit the surrounding.  That’s what the purpose of the CRL is for.  Sparking development into communities.  It’s already invested more into East Village.  That’s where the proposed money is coming from.  CS&E aren’t the only ones that benefit, so why not have the people that also directly benefit also chip in.

It’s funny you act like this is going to play a huge impact on you, rally up the troops, the working man won’t stand for it.  But unless you live in West Village or plan on using the facility you’re complaining about nothing.  Got to stick it to the man. It’s funny how political figures try to make rich look bad and separate them as the enemies to the middle and lower class, I know all about it, Kent Hehr is a good friend of mine.  It’s a tactic to make the politicians look relatable to the public to get public support.  “We” don’t like that person because they are different than “us”. Notely just did it was O’Leary, Nenshi is doing it with Bettman, and that’s in the last week.

Discretionary income doesn’t mean it’s staying within the city.  Not everyone that attends the flames games are from Calgary, in fact a ton are from rural towns.  A sports team gives purpose for that money to stay in Calgary.  Plus you’re not even considering the intangibles.  It doesn’t have to cost anything to be a fan of a local team.  The joy a winning team brings to the city is priceless.          

You may hate your boss because he might not value your skill set properly, he might have ton of money and because of that you might not want to go out of your way to help benefit him any more than you have too, maybe you don’t work any extra unpaid overtime, or put in that extra effort.  You may wish misfortune upon him.  But once his business goes under, so does the income you use to support your family.   

                              

[WHL rocks]

2 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

 

 

Ah I see “screw the rich let them be on their own, but I don’t mind reaping free the benefits that they bring to the city”

 

 

Except no billion $ bill is being proposed to the Calgary tax payers.  In fact no one outside the direct community is effected and their taxes do not increase.  The Majority of the public fund proposed is to be coming out of the CRL fund.  A fund that already exists and the city uses for other projects.  Its purpose is to help spark development into communities. For instance “Since 2007, CMLC has committed approximately $357 million to East Village infrastructure and development programs. This in turn has attracted $2.4 billion of planned development (so far) that’s expected to deliver $725 million of CRL revenues.”

Ownership is proposing to investing 200 million of their own money and raise an additional 250 million of ticket taxes.  A percent of taxes from tickets sold to people who use the facility in the future will go towards the cost.  You don’t use the facility, you don’t pay.  The Fieldhouse is a top of the line training facility that citizen of Calgary can use.  It’s not a driver for the football stadium or the hockey rink, it’s main benefit is to citizens of Calgary.    

http://calgarynext.com/financing-plan.php

In fairness the proposed building doesn't include demolition cost of the current site which is said to be around 50-250 million. and all budgets always seem to go over...never under.  But what is being proposed is going to have next to little affect on the every citizens.  The only people that have their taxes increased are the people that live in that area, but it's not unreasonable to expect, as their property values will see benefits.  Same situation happened with my old place when the LRT was being built in the west

And this story is getting blow out of proportion,  it's not like Nenshi was saying, it's not happening.  He agrees about building the project and says that the discussions about it are on ongoing,  just felt it didn't need someone else's opinion on the matter.  

What is the CLR aka Calgary Revitalization Levy?  It's a tax. The Municipal Government Act defines it as a tax.

 You barely did any research on it and you're trying to convince others. Lol.

Who do you think funds that fund? THe Calgary Flames? lol   

I'm not even all that interested in this subject, the arena will get built and I really don't care how they fund it. It's pretty much the same way all thru North America. 

Like I said the arena will get built, this is part of the process, just preparing the citizens. 

We spent almost a billion on renovating a decades old BC Place Stadium, CGY is getting a really good deal here, they're getting a Football Stadium and a Hockey Rink for a little more than our reno project. I'd take that  if I'm a Calgarian. 

[ForsbergTheGreat]

14 minutes ago, WHL rocks said:

What is the CLR aka Calgary Revitalization Levy?  It's a tax. The Municipal Government Act defines it as a tax. 

You barely did any research on it and you're trying to convince others. Lol.

Who do you think funds that fund? THe Calgary Flames? lol

Like I said the arena will get built, this is part of the process, just preparing the citizens. 

We spent almost a billion on renovating a decades old BC Place Stadium, CGY is getting a really good deal here, they're getting a Football Stadium and a Hockey Rink for a little more than our reno project. I'd take that  if I'm a Calgarian. 

The crl is a quarter of the cost. Far cry from the billion $ pay tag you stated. 

The crl exist with or without calgaryNext going through. That money is spend on community development. Tax payers fund are going into that fund no matter what. And they taxes don't increase for calgaryNext. We could keep using it for another 25 mil bridge?

[WHL rocks]

4 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

The crl is a quarter of the cost. Far cry from the billion $ pay tag you stated. 

The crl exist with or without calgaryNext going through. That money is spend on community development. Tax payers fund are going into that fund no matter what. And they taxes don't increase for calgaryNext. We could keep using it for another 25 mil bridge?

We'll see what that bill is once it's said and done. I know our bill for BC Place doubled just for reno, These guys are building a Stadium and a Ice rink. That's a BC PLace and a Rogers Arena. 

[ForsbergTheGreat]

3 minutes ago, WHL rocks said:

We'll see what that bill is once it's said and done. I know our bill for BC Place doubled just for reno, These guys are building a Stadium and a Ice rink. That's a BC PLace and a Rogers Arena. 

Oh I bet it goes up. The 890 million quoted will probably be closer to 1.3 when its done. But the point I'm trying to make is it really has no effect on the everyday person. That fund exist for exact reasons like this. Community development. In fact that fund also makes its own revenue off its own investments so it's not even fully funded by the pubilc.  No one seemed to care when it invested more than what's being ask (for this project) into east village. Why because there wasn't one public figure that people could turn into the enemy. I don't even think people even knew what was being spent there (Not that it's a bad thing). But now all of the sudden because it's a well know group that's leading the charge it's a problem. 

[WHL rocks]

1 minute ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Oh I bet it goes up. The 890 million quoted will probably be closer to 1.3 when its done. But the point I'm trying to make is it really has no effect on the everyday person. That fund exist for exact reasons like this. Community development. In fact that fund also makes its own revenue off its own investments so it's not even fully funded by the pubilc.  No one seemed to care when it invested more than what's being ask (for this project) into east village. Why because there wasn't one public figure that people could turn into the enemy. I don't even think people even knew what was being spent there (Not that it's a bad thing). But now all of the sudden because it's a well know group that's leading the charge it's a problem. 

I've never said i have a problem with it, In my OP I was just stating the obvious that Bettman is in town to start preparing people to foot the bill for a huge project. 1 million or 1 billion or whatever. The figure isn't important in the context. Flames and City Hall were all in on it, they want the citizens to be prepared to spend money. 

Is it the right thing to do or wrong thing to do I really don't have an opinion. I know its something that will happen and taxpayers will pay towards it. 

[RonMexico]

2 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Oh I bet it goes up. The 890 million quoted will probably be closer to 1.3 when its done. But the point I'm trying to make is it really has no effect on the everyday person. That fund exist for exact reasons like this. Community development. In fact that fund also makes its own revenue off its own investments so it's not even fully funded by the pubilc.  No one seemed to care when it invested more than what's being ask (for this project) into east village. Why because there wasn't one public figure that people could turn into the enemy. I don't even think people even knew what was being spent there (Not that it's a bad thing). But now all of the sudden because it's a well know group that's leading the charge it's a problem. 

Why should it go up? I hate that developers are allowed to hold budgets hostage because their end is being cut into. With the price of oil and various commodities in the tank right now, these mega projects should be cheaper to complete.

[WHL rocks]

7 minutes ago, RonMexico said:

Why should it go up? I hate that developers are allowed to hold budgets hostage because their end is being cut into. With the price of oil and various commodities in the tank right now, these mega projects should be cheaper to complete.

Because it's easier to sell it to the public that way. It's kinda like going to dinner on a budget but having an extra drink. Works it's way into the bill. 

And it's how they get rich and politicians get kick backs. 

[Gurn]

51 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

 

Do you own a place in West Village?

No? oh good is doesn’t affect you, not impacting you “the working man”

Yes? Good watch your property value rise.  I did the same when the LRT was build west.

You keep stating banks giving them a loan?  You seem to have that mixed up with thinking the return on the investment is based on profit from the building again you are forgetting the local benefits.  CS&E aren’t going to see a share of all the profit the surrounding.  That’s what the purpose of the CRL is for.  Sparking development into communities.  It’s already invested more into East Village.  That’s where the proposed money is coming from.  CS&E aren’t the only ones that benefit, so why not have the people that also directly benefit also chip in.

It’s funny you act like this is going to play a huge impact on you, rally up the troops, the working man won’t stand for it.  But unless you live in West Village or plan on using the facility you’re complaining about nothing.  Got to stick it to the man. It’s funny how political figures try to make rich look bad and separate them as the enemies to the middle and lower class, I know all about it, Kent Hehr is a good friend of mine.  It’s a tactic to make the politicians look relatable to the public to get public support.  “We” don’t like that person because they are different than “us”. Notely just did it was O’Leary, Nenshi is doing it with Bettman, and that’s in the last week.

Discretionary income doesn’t mean it’s staying within the city.  Not everyone that attends the flames games are from Calgary, in fact a ton are from rural towns.  A sports team gives purpose for that money to stay in Calgary.  Plus you’re not even considering the intangibles.  It doesn’t have to cost anything to be a fan of a local team.  The joy a winning team brings to the city is priceless.        

You may hate your boss because he might not value your skill set properly, he might have ton of money and because of that you might not want to go out of your way to help benefit him any more than you have too, maybe you don’t work any extra unpaid overtime, or put in that extra effort.  You may wish misfortune upon him.  But once his business goes under, so does the income you use to support your family.   

                            

 What is funny is how much you think you know about me. You assume I don't like rich people because I want rich people to pay for their own stuff, when I actually have a problem with free loaders, be they rich or poor.

 As to how I relate or work with my boss it is very simple- I agree to do the work he wants at the agreed price. If he wants more work he can pay more for me to do it. Capitalism- not socialized, subsidized business.

"  Plus you’re not even considering the intangibles"

Can you tell me how to measure intangibles?

 

[CALGARY!]

I really dont feel its Bettmans place to tell the city they need a new building, yeah the Dome is getting old, but we still pack it every night, for me personally I dont really care about the acoustics in the building, or the aged and odd shape of the building, Im just there to watch a hockey game, and honestly Im quite content with the Flames staying put in the Dome, Ive had alot of great memories in the Dome, I saw Gretzky get his 2500 point,  I saw Bures overtime winner in 94, I bumped into Iggy when he was just 18 playing one of his first games in the playoffs against Chicago, witnessed Kippers last game, witnessed Iggys first game back since being traded, and most recently saw Sam Bennetts first Hatty(and 4 goal game I guess for that matter), I saw game 4 of last years first round against the Nucks, I saw game 6 of the 04 cup run against the Nucks, and game 6 of that same run against the Wings, and came 6 of that same run against the Sharks, couldnt get any tickets to the finals though.   Had Al Macinnis flip me a puck over the boards during pre skate when I was a kid, saw Marty St.Louis play an exhibition game, where my dad said he would never make the NHL(LOL) oh dad and Calgary, how wrong you were.  

 

Back on topic though, what business does Bettman have telling us to get a new rink.  I bet if Carolina or Florida needed a new rink he would send NHL money to them to build it, if he wants us to have a new rink that bad then shoot some cash our way.  

[ForsbergTheGreat]

4 hours ago, CALGARY! said:

I really dont feel its Bettmans place to tell the city they need a new building, yeah the Dome is getting old, but we still pack it every night, for me personally I dont really care about the acoustics in the building, or the aged and odd shape of the building, Im just there to watch a hockey game, and honestly Im quite content with the Flames staying put in the Dome, Ive had alot of great memories in the Dome, I saw Gretzky get his 2500 point,  I saw Bures overtime winner in 94, I bumped into Iggy when he was just 18 playing one of his first games in the playoffs against Chicago, witnessed Kippers last game, witnessed Iggys first game back since being traded, and most recently saw Sam Bennetts first Hatty(and 4 goal game I guess for that matter), I saw game 4 of last years first round against the Nucks, I saw game 6 of the 04 cup run against the Nucks, and game 6 of that same run against the Wings, and came 6 of that same run against the Sharks, couldnt get any tickets to the finals though.   Had Al Macinnis flip me a puck over the boards during pre skate when I was a kid, saw Marty St.Louis play an exhibition game, where my dad said he would never make the NHL(LOL) oh dad and Calgary, how wrong you were.  

 

Back on topic though, what business does Bettman have telling us to get a new rink.  I bet if Carolina or Florida needed a new rink he would send NHL money to them to build it, if he wants us to have a new rink that bad then shoot some cash our way.  

Me too, one of my best memories. 

Bettman is an employee of the owners.  I'll he's doing it stating his public support for the owners.  It's no different then when Burke (an employee of CS&E) said the same thing.

“A building has . . . to generate NHL economics, which our building does not,” the Calgary Herald quotes Burke as saying.

“Lower bowl in a new arena — in the new generation of arenas — is 9,000 seats, minimum. Ours is what — 6,000? So we’re not generating the revenue that an NHL building does," he said, adding that the sightlines in the aging facility aren't as good, and that the suites and amenities for fans are lacking compared to other arenas.

“It’s embarrassing,” he said, adding the Scotiabank Saddledome is "the finest state-of-the-art 1988 building in the [NHL]."

 The acoustics keep big name concerts from coming to the city.  The weakness of the roof prevents major event from happening.  The lack of box and limited lower bowl seats dramatically reduces the profit brought in each game.  The building in going to be need in a major refurbish which in it's own right is going to cost hundreds of million. 

Then on top of that, as bad as the dome is, Mcmahon stadium is in even worse condition, so what is proposed is a multiplex that becomes the home of all calgarys major sports.  Roughnecks, Stamps. Flames. Hitmen added with a Fieldhouse for top end sports training, another thing calgary has been begging for, That's why the NHL wouldn't pay for it since the NHL isn't the only tenant. 

[CALGARY!]

Yeah no I know they would never pay for it, and I'm all for a new arena, I just don't think it's any of Bettmans business to tell us that, Burke sure yeah I guess, and Ken King and the ownership group for sure.  I'm just saying I bet if there were a lot of problems in one of the southern US market teams buildings and the ownership group wanted a new building, Bettman would probably throw money at it instead of just telling the city to do it 

[Alflives]

Just now, CALGARY! said:

Yeah no I know they would never pay for it, and I'm all for a new arena, I just don't think it's any of Bettmans business to tell us that, Burke sure yeah I guess, and Ken King and the ownership group for sure.  I'm just saying I bet if there were a lot of problems in one of the southern US market teams buildings and the ownership group wanted a new building, Bettman would probably throw money at it instead of just telling the city to do it 

He's just stating fact.  That old barn is a piece of recently flooded, mold infected, monkey crap.  They should move its location to.  Maybe try up wind of the track and stampede grounds?  PU.

[CALGARY!]

Alf now come on, the Dome isnt that bad, I mean at the end of the day its got a regulation hockey Rink with seats for people who enjoy watching hockey, and even serves overpriced garbage food and beverages to those people.