Our Defence

[Rollieo Del Fuego]

1 hour ago, riffraff said:

...stop that,  you'll go blind....

[JamesB]

2 hours ago, Alflives said:

It's looking like we need to either trade for a young D, who has elite potential - like Columbus just did with Jones.  Or, we have to get lucky in the draft.  I look at the top guys around the league, and they all seem to share one special quality - they are super high Hockey Q guys.  Maybe that's part of the character stuff JB keeps harping on getting in the draft or through trades?

 

46 minutes ago, tyhee said:

....

Byfuglien would figure to greatly improve the defence in the short term, but I don't like the risk involved in giving him the length of term it would require to bring him to Vancouver.   Byfuglien will be 31 at the start of next season.  We've recently seen the play of Higgins, Bieksa and Hamhuis and Burrows start to decline by the age of 32.

Realistically, that's still not a strong group.  Canucks would be lucky if Pedan and Tryamkin could improve things much in 2016-17.  Biega plays an intelligent game with a good work ethic but doesn't have the size and skill to make much of an impact.  I consider him just about the perfect #7 or 8, someone who on a good team wouldn't noticeably hurt the team when stepping in.  Sbisa is somewhat physical but his hockey play is still depth level and imo it's unrealistic to expect him to improve much at the age of 26 and after 8 seasons in the NHL ... .

I don't expect the Canucks to re-sign Weber and will be disappointed if they re-sign Bartkowski.

There is a lot of agreement in this thread. I think the only realistic way to rebuild the D is through the draft and/or prospect acquisition (like Pedan).

It is very difficult to build the D through trades for established players and, of course, the other team wants someone just as good in return. So you might get a good D in trade but you end up giving up a lot and are not much further ahead. The same thing applies to UFAs. Trying to build a team through UFAs is impossible in light of the cap. In general, UFAs cost a lot more in terms of dollar per unit of performance than younger guys. tyhee's comments about Byfuglien are right on target and they apply more generally.

I also agree with tyhee's assessment of the current D. Biega is a good guy but he does not have the tools to be more than a depth guy and, at his age, he is not likely to improve. Weber and Bart just aren't good enough to be more then #7 depth guys and Sbisa is unlikely to be more than a solid physical 3rd pairing guy.

Where I differ is with Hammer. He could be a good veteran presence on the team for several years (playing a role similar to Willie Mitchell in Florida). And he would probably re-sign with the Canucks for below market. What we need is the equivalent of Ekblad -- a young guy who could be a Norris candidate in the future. That is what high draft picks do for you. (Ekblad was of course a #1 overall pick in 2014.)

But sometimes you can get high-quality Ds with lower draft picks (lottery tickets). And Benning's best attribute as GM seems to be his ability to assess young talent. Here are some of the young D's in the system right now:Hutton, Pedan, Tryamkin, Brisbois,Neill, Olsen, Subban.

I would say that all of those guys are over-performing relative to their draft position, and all but two were obtained by Benning. I would like to see the Canucks get a high draft pick this year (Chychrun, pls), add some other picks with deadline trades, and add some more quality D prospects to the pipeline. As for next year, my depth chart looks goes as follows: Tanev, Edler, Hammer, Hutton, Sbisa, Pedan, Biega, Tryamkin. (Too many L shots, I know, but you play the cards are dealt.)

[Rocksterh8]

IMO there are only 2 solid D on the back end, thats Tanev and Hutton. I hope the rest all get replaced next year, and yes that incudes Edler.  I also think Pedan should be in the lineup now getting more experience instead of wasting a spot on weber, bart etc. 

[aliboy]

3 hours ago, smithers joe said:

we need to be able to move edler and tanev down to the 2nd pairing and coupling a strong defensive d man with our # 1 d man shattenkirk...and put in place a better break out system...teams know that if they can get on our d, they can own our zone...cut edler's ice time back ...we have lots of 5/6/7 d-men.....

Yes, Edler and Tanev need to be our second pairing, then we need our version of Keith and Seabrook.

[smithers joe]

2 hours ago, Rocksterh8 said:

IMO there are only 2 solid D on the back end, thats Tanev and Hutton. I hope the rest all get replaced next year, and yes that incudes Edler.  I also think Pedan should be in the lineup now getting more experience instead of wasting a spot on weber, bart etc. 

i doubt they move edler unless he would drop his ntc...a he says he doesn't want to move...i think edler's biggest problem, next to his skating, is he's being playing too many minutes...hutton is not strong enough to play top minutes...we need a strong defensive d man and a offensive qb....they aren't easy to come by without giving up your future....tough spot benning is in....

[coastal1]

6 hours ago, Darius71 said:

This Current defence is probably the worst the Canucks have put on the ice in about 15 years.  Id even argue its one of the worst 3 Ds in the NHL.

No legit PP QB, hardly any offence generated from the back end, most of these guys cant make a good first pass out of the zone. Soft as butter.

Boeser, Virt, Bo, Shink, Baertschi and McCann can turn out to be 25 goal scorers, they will flounder like the oilers until they rebuild that back end.  

With all the money being freed up in cap space during the next couple years they better make some wise decisions in the UFA market because they dont have many top end prospects on D.

 

How many good defencemen ever reach FA? If that is your hope to rebuild that defence, than you will be a very frustrated fan. A very good young defenceman was traded recently, and it took a very good forward to get him. We draft and wait and at the same time we trade, if possible but getting a good defenceman will cost more than a Jensen or a Higgins. It will cost a Virtanen or a Horvat or someone like that.

[Adamth]

Beiga/ Tanev-  did pretty good despite the overall effort  and the lack of winning this team greatly needs

[Maniwaki Canuck]

4 hours ago, tyhee said:

Byfuglien would figure to greatly improve the defence in the short term, but I don't like the risk involved in giving him the length of term it would require to bring him to Vancouver.   Byfuglien will be 31 at the start of next season.  We've recently seen the play of Higgins, Bieksa and Hamhuis and Burrows start to decline by the age of 32.

It's a risk, alright, but if you look at his numbers, they're still trending upwards.  You have to figure that he's putting some strain on his joints packing that kind of weight, but his skating is still remarkable for a guy his size.  This is what makes him even scarier as an all-around player than Chara was in his prime.  If you sign Buff at 8 mil for 5 yrs. and he's good value for 3 of them, you still come out ahead.  During that time you still need to find and develop some top D prospects, but he would buy you that time.  I'd take the risk because it's maybe the only way I can see us winning a cup with the Sedins still here.  We'll have the cap to do it, and its a better route to go than blowing all of our recently replenished prospect pool. 

[PhillipBlunt]

4 hours ago, canuckleheads fan said:

We definitely need to shore up the D. Once Sbisa gets back, we'll have to 4 NHL caliber D, with Edler, Tanev and Hutton. I had thought that Bart's play was better the past few games, more grit, but yesterday he really regressed. We need to get Edler back to about 18 minutes, he's looking tired, which causes mistakes. I don't think at this stage we need Lucic as much as we need a top pairing D-man.

I hope when he returns, Sbisa continues his development. He could be a top pairing with Hutton. Short of any signings, I see next year looking like this:

Hutton-Sbisa

Edler-Tanev

Biega-Pedan

Bartkowski 

Sbisa and Hutton as the top pairing? You want to tank next year?

[Fred65]

Scary to think that where would the team be if Hutton hadn't been ready to play in the NHL as a rookie. Pedan who is maybe the mostlikely of the prospects is a #7. Neither Weber or Bartkowski are not true NHL D worthy, and Hamhuis shall we say his best days have past. That's a lot of spots to fill. Thank goodness Biega has filled in well and now that the inevitable waiving of Higgins highlights the Corrado total fiasco there nothing left on the farm. I suppose we can cross our fingers and "hope" Tryamkin(sp) might be ready we're still way sort of what is needed. There's little in our salary range in FA's so next year has a good chnace to be much like this season. We might score 4-5 goals a game but the opposition will score 5-6 in short it's a mess and some of it is our own making

[Maniwaki Canuck]

1 minute ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

What we really need are a couple of young Finnish D-men, cut in the mould of Jyrki Lumme and Sami Salo.

 

Those, plus an angry stay-at-home D who's got a great first-pass out the zone and not afraid to crosscheck the ribs off any opposing player in our goalie's crease, would be perfect for our D.

I'd take it but maybe flip the numbers around:  2 mean crease-clearers and 1 smart puck-mover as long as he's as good as Salo was.  Hutton is already close to what Lumme was and will probably end up better. 

[Maniwaki Canuck]

Just now, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

I can see it now: "Need dental surgery?  Stand right here while I empty out your front teeth..."

 

New age dentistry, we don't use anesthetics!

[SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME]

Watching Niskanen this season (and last game) makes me sure wish we'd at least been in the mix for him when he was available.

Under $6 million AAV for a guy that eats minutes and plays 24+ TOI/G (and averaging 28 TOI/G while Carlson has been hurt), RH shot who can play either side, skates like the wind, moves the puck with aplomb, and just really solid in all situations.

Very few guys can PK and PP as well as Niskanen, or switch back and forth with ease between playing shutdown D to offensive puckmover, depending on team needs and partner, and without any dropoff in effectiveness. 

Damn nice pickup for the Caps.

Not sure when the next Nisky type will come available but hopefully JB doesn't hesitate if/when such a player ever hits free agency.

Big Buff isn't quite as versatile as a Niskanen but still brings a lot of elements we need. Not sure he'll be great value on the contract he'll likely command. But I am certain he'd make this team better. Probably worth the money if the term can be kept to a reasonable number.

Nobody really stands out for me this year as an impending free agent D who has the potential of say a Niskanen. I really advocated hard for us signing Nisky when he was available because I saw him as a potential #1 D (and he's proven now to be at least a legit 1st pairing D) who could be signed for #3 D money (which is what his deal is basically).

Those kinds of opportunities just don't come around too often. I'd love nothing more than to see Benning make a splash with a similar type of signing. Problem is, like I said above, I'm not reall sold on anyone in this year's FA crop offering the same value as Niskanen.

Maybe others have some ideas for candidates?

[Alflives]

22 minutes ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

What we really need are a couple of young Finnish D-men, cut in the mould of Jyrki Lumme and Sami Salo.

 

Those, plus an angry stay-at-home D who's got a great first-pass out the zone and not afraid to crosscheck the ribs off any opposing player in our goalie's crease, would be perfect for our D.

Those two never got the recognition for how good they truly were.  Both were better than Edler.  Ohlund was a rock too.  Processing speed is darned important.

[Maniwaki Canuck]

8 minutes ago, SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME said:

Watching Niskanen this season (and last game) makes me sure wish we'd at least been in the mix for him when he was available.

Under $6 million AAV for a guy that eats minutes and plays 24+ TOI/G (and averaging 28 TOI/G while Carlson has been hurt), RH shot who can play either side, skates like the wind, moves the puck with aplomb, and just really solid in all situations.

Very few guys can PK and PP as well as Niskanen, or switch back and forth with ease between playing shutdown D to offensive puckmover, depending on team needs and partner, and without any dropoff in effectiveness. 

Damn nice pickup for the Caps.

Not sure when the next Nisky type will come available but hopefully JB doesn't hesitate if/when such a player ever hits free agency.

Big Buff isn't quite as versatile as a Niskanen but still brings a lot of elements we need. Not sure he'll be great value on the contract he'll likely command. But I am certain he'd make this team better. Probably worth the money if the term can be kept to a reasonable number.

Nobody really stands out for me this year as an impending free agent D who has the potential of say a Niskanen. I really advocated hard for us signing Nisky when he was available because I saw him as a potential #1 D (and he's proven now to be at least a legit 1st pairing D) who could be signed for #3 D money (which is what his deal is basically).

Those kinds of opportunities just don't come around too often. I'd love nothing more than to see Benning make a splash with a similar type of signing. Problem is, like I said above, I'm not reall sold on anyone in this year's FA crop offering the same value as Niskanen.

Maybe others have some ideas for candidates?

Agreed:  beyond Buff there's not anyone I'd be very enthusiastic about.  Goligoski and Yandle are probably the best that might be available, but they're one-dimensional and shoot left so they offer a lot less than Niskanen even though they will probably cost more. 

I really think we need the best stop-gap FA we can get and need to make the reconstruction of our D through the draft priority #1.  To me, that stop-gap is Buff and I'm not so worried about the value part of it.  Our young forwards are going to be good value for the coming years and so will allow us to splurge on a big-ticket item like Buff.  Hamhuis, Prust, Bartkowski and Weber give us 10+ million to play with next year.  With Miller and Burrows finishing their contracts in July 2017, we'll have another 10.5 million coming free then too.  We need to fill a glaring need for physicality and offense on RD and keep building the prospect pipeline. 

[DIBdaQUIB]

4 hours ago, smithers joe said:

we need to be able to move edler and tanev down to the 2nd pairing and coupling a strong defensive d man with our # 1 d man shattenkirk...and put in place a better break out system...teams know that if they can get on our d, they can own our zone...cut edler's ice time back ...we have lots of 5/6/7 d-men.....

I agree Joe.  Tanev and Edler are 2nd pairing quality.  A rebuild on the back end that leaves them as the first pairing will never generate the results we want.

[DIBdaQUIB]

1 hour ago, smithers joe said:

i doubt they move edler unless he would drop his ntc...a he says he doesn't want to move...i think edler's biggest problem, next to his skating, is he's being playing too many minutes...hutton is not strong enough to play top minutes...we need a strong defensive d man and a offensive qb....they aren't easy to come by without giving up your future....tough spot benning is in....

Edler's biggest problem is motivation.  He is happy and content here and is riding out his contract.  It shows in the lack of intensity and emotion he plays with.  JB may have to pull  a Higgins on him.

[canuckleheads fan]

1 hour ago, PhillipBlunt said:

Sbisa and Hutton as the top pairing? You want to tank next year?

Sbisa was playing much improved before the injury. If he recapures that and continues to improve, he has all the skills to be a very good second or lower tier top pairing. Of late Hutton is a little up and down, but he also has the ability to be a top pairing. If we can keep Edler at 18-20 mins, he and Tanev make a solid second pairing. This is not ideal, but if management is committed to building from within, this is what we're left with. There's no reason to pay Byfugly a crapload of money if the team is still at least three years away from being top tier.

CDC needs to get over their Sbisa hate, he's not Keith or Suban, but he's becoming a solid contributor.

[N4ZZY]

4 hours ago, JamesB said:

 

There is a lot of agreement in this thread. I think the only realistic way to rebuild the D is through the draft and/or prospect acquisition (like Pedan).

It is very difficult to build the D through trades for established players and, of course, the other team wants someone just as good in return. So you might get a good D in trade but you end up giving up a lot and are not much further ahead. The same thing applies to UFAs. Trying to build a team through UFAs is impossible in light of the cap. In general, UFAs cost a lot more in terms of dollar per unit of performance than younger guys. tyhee's comments about Byfuglien are right on target and they apply more generally.

I also agree with tyhee's assessment of the current D. Biega is a good guy but he does not have the tools to be more than a depth guy and, at his age, he is not likely to improve. Weber and Bart just aren't good enough to be more then #7 depth guys and Sbisa is unlikely to be more than a solid physical 3rd pairing guy.

Where I differ is with Hammer. He could be a good veteran presence on the team for several years (playing a role similar to Willie Mitchell in Florida). And he would probably re-sign with the Canucks for below market. What we need is the equivalent of Ekblad -- a young guy who could be a Norris candidate in the future. That is what high draft picks do for you. (Ekblad was of course a #1 overall pick in 2014.)

But sometimes you can get high-quality Ds with lower draft picks (lottery tickets). And Benning's best attribute as GM seems to be his ability to assess young talent. Here are some of the young D's in the system right now:Hutton, Pedan, Tryamkin, Brisbois,Neill, Olsen, Subban.

I would say that all of those guys are over-performing relative to their draft position, and all but two were obtained by Benning. I would like to see the Canucks get a high draft pick this year (Chychrun, pls), add some other picks with deadline trades, and add some more quality D prospects to the pipeline. As for next year, my depth chart looks goes as follows: Tanev, Edler, Hammer, Hutton, Sbisa, Pedan, Biega, Tryamkin. (Too many L shots, I know, but you play the cards are dealt.)

maybe we can deal some of the defense for right handed guys. or if we are lucky. maybe one of the defensive prospects we draft is able to step into the line up right away. unlikely I know. 

[aliboy]

If we can draft one Duncan Keith type player and sign Buff we're good, or some equivalent. If we can sign one good UFA there's nothing wrong with that.