Are we destined for more physical domination?

[alfstonker]

Am I the only one who is hearing alarm bells ringing when I look at the direction this team is moving in?

First of all let me say I am fine with the talent and ability we are acquiring. Players such a Bo, Sven, McCann, Hutton, Virtanen etc are starting to show up pretty well and I do enjoy "the glimpses" of the kind of fast possession attacking hockey we are seeing.

However, speaking personally I am disappointed in our direction when it comes to physicality size and push back. I accept that it is early days but I only see these qualities in Jake at present and I think Hutton will eventually hold his own when he muscles up a bit. There is of course Sbisa and Sutter to come into the team.

Looking at Utica I see a couple of big bodies in Gaunce and Grenier but only Pedan has the mean streak coupled with the size I would like to see more of.

Am I the only one here who expected a template to be struck when GMJB arrived from Boston?

Well as yet I don't see it and I am getting anxious when I look around the league at the way other clubs have developed. Particularly Florida, Buffalo, Sens, Caps, Boston, Jets etc.

Size may not be everything but when we are talking about attritional best of 7 you better have your fair share and it better be willing to back your push back or you are heading for the exit door imo.

There is always free agency but I hope we now look for more big, gritty in your face type of players in the draft.

I wrote in another thread about the 2011 SC roster who were badly maligned after failing through injury to Boston that:

Manny, Torres, Kesler, Hansen, Alberts, Ehrhoff, Rome, Burr, Glass, Lappy, Sammy, Sami, Beiksa, Ballard, Rypien, Edler, Hamhuis were a lot tougher and in your face than what I see developing out there. There were no lightweights and the lightest of them all was the toughest.

[Jack Fig]

It takes time...you can't see all the parts of the end-game yet. You draft talent and character...physicality can be added through free agency provided you have the money for it. But to get a sense of what could happen in that department, I would prefer to see more of Gaunce, Grenier and Pedan sooner rather than later in the process.

[CeeBee51]

Gotta get bigger AND better. Bigger is easy but bigger and better is a lot harder.  I think it just takes time. 

[Deets]

Yah!!!!! GMJB has already been here 2 years. Where's our cup?

[Chalky]

What we need is Zack Kassian.

[Jack Fig]

10 minutes ago, Chalky said:

What we need is Zack Kassian.

Nah, he's one wrecked truck, one broken ankle and two hussies stupider than when he was here last. That's some bad trending.

[Davathor]

Our d core needs help, a Weber or byf, even Myers would make the team much more physical.  Problem is none of our D are punishing anymore.. Edlers a kitten, Hamhuis scared of injury, everyone else too small or timid to be a difference physically.

I miss Willie Mitchell - he used to make me feel bad for other players trying to enter the zone.. Now it's a cakewalk

[Down by the River]

You want your young players to be able to focus on what happens while the clock is running down. There is also a big difference between 'big' and 'strong'. Just look at Chara when he broke into the league. He was big, but not very strong. People did not fear Chara. 

Let the kids have some time to work on their game before adding the 'nasty' element. Cassels was a nasty piece of work in junior, but Green has him down in the AHL working on the things that make him a pro hockey player. Once he's established that, he can move bring back his edge.

Cassels and McCann are under-sized but feisty. Bo is a bull, Tryamkin and Pedan are huge, Grenier and Gaunce are big bodies. Virtanen's speed and size make him a physical threat every night. 

Also, you likely won't often see Gaunce and Horvat make huge hits, because they are so positionally sound. They aren't running around the ice out of position and then skating back into position giving themselves the opportunity to lay a big hit. They are right on their man, or right in the area that they need to be, so setting up the big hit is difficult.

 

[Chalky]

1 minute ago, Jack Fig said:

Nah, he's one wrecked truck, one broken ankle and two hussies stupider than when he was here last. That's some bad trending.

Come on, he's trending in the right direction for hussies.  The comment was more for Alf's reading pleasure, I know how much he loves Zack.  I like Zack myself, I hope he figures it out, but I'm not seriously campaigning to bring him back.  Lucic on the other hand, I'd welcome him home with open arms...for the right price....not 8mil a season for 10 years like his teammate is supposed to be getting.

[nergish]

9 minutes ago, Chalky said:

What we need is Zack Kassian.

Before the trade, I was really looking forward to seeing Kassian's role on the team as a "young leader". Obviously there were issues that Benning simply could not see around, and I can't really blame him for moving someone with those kinds of off-ice issues, but I honestly do think that if we had known how physically dominant Jake Virtanen would be as a rookie, we would have kept Kassian for another year. My reasoning there being that Kass isn't just tough in the name of honour (standing up for teammates), he's a literal bully on the ice. When you have someone as physically gifted as Jake, you want them to see the ice as "theirs"... have other players on the ice always always worrying about where he is. He and Kass could have been the bash bros, and voila... we're no longer an easy team to play against.

It pleases me to no end knowing that, even if Jake goes through a scoring slump at any point throughout his career, he could potentially just snap and take an opponent out of the game. I just get the sense that at some point in the distant future, he's going to make an impact on a  game or even series without even hitting the scoresheet (points, of course, would be nice too).
 

But yeah, that's a lot of pressure on one guy. We need some more big bodies out there, especially on the back-end. 
 

[aliboy]

We are currently seeing some nice flow coming back into our game and that's enough for now. Next year we need to see Buff or Lucic or both or some other big tough pieces on the team. Next year is the real beginning, it's all about next year and then on from there.

[yoshiyoshi]

27 minutes ago, Chalky said:

What we need is Zack Kassian.

kassian needed to be traded and waived. its his wakeup call. If we had kept him he probably wouldnt have been in that(or any) accident which forced him into rehab and has given him his chance to turn things around

[Bissurnette]

I think this is the Sedin effect. They've turned the other cheek for so many years that the young kids are learning that from them (plus it doesn't help that marshmallows like Edler and Weber are on the blueline). But the Sedins are acknowledging that and even they're showing a little push back hoping the kids learn to stand up for themselves and each other. I don't know if you noticed but after the Niskanen one handed tackle on Baertschi in the Washington game, H. Sedin ran into Niskanen in the corner a couple of shifts later and tried to wreck him. Granted, it wasn't imposing but it's the thought that counts. I think once the Utica culture starts making more of its way into the lineup, we'll finally see some changes in the way of physicality and intimidation on the ice. Also keep in mind that Pedan, Tryamkin, Stewart, and Grenier on their own (if they all make it to the NHL) will be enough of a deterrent for other teams. Add to that Lucic (hopefully depending on $$), Gaunce, Shinkaruk and McCann who typically don't back, and a more developed Virtanen and you have a sufficiently tough team imo.

Relax, we're headed in the right direction.

[Chris]

NO!!~~~~~ 

 

Trying to copy Boston is what set the Canucks back so bloody far in the first place!!!

 

Vancouver wants a fast, skilled, high scoring, strong penalty killing team and to do that, we need to find and develop some top6 forwards/top 4 dmen as fast as we can, and to do THAT, we need to keep drafting as many players with scoring potential until we've re-built something resembling a core that doesn't suck, and then surround THOSE guys with grit and physicality, it's too early to worry about grit/physicality for this generation, besides, I get the feeling that might be ALL we have to get excited about soon.

[Cowardrobertford]

Not necessarily big, but at least gritty and won't back down. 

[PhillipBlunt]

53 minutes ago, alfstonker said:

Am I the only one who is hearing alarm bells ringing when I look at the direction this team is moving in?

First of all let me say I am fine with the talent and ability we are acquiring. Players such a Bo, Sven, McCann, Hutton, Virtanen etc are starting to show up pretty well and I do enjoy "the glimpses" of the kind of fast possession attacking hockey we are seeing.

However, speaking personally I am disappointed in our direction when it comes to physicality size and push back. I accept that it is early days but I only see these qualities in Jake at present and I think Hutton will eventually hold his own when he muscles up a bit. There is of course Sbisa and Sutter to come into the team.

Looking at Utica I see a couple of big bodies in Gaunce and Grenier but only Pedan has the mean streak coupled with the size I would like to see more of.

Am I the only one here who expected a template to be struck when GMJB arrived from Boston?

Well as yet I don't see it and I am getting anxious when I look around the league at the way other clubs have developed. Particularly Florida, Buffalo, Sens, Caps, Boston, Jets etc.

Size may not be everything but when we are talking about attritional best of 7 you better have your fair share and it better be willing to back your push back or you are heading for the exit door imo.

There is always free agency but I hope we now look for more big, gritty in your face type of players in the draft.

I wrote in another thread about the 2011 SC roster who were badly maligned after failing through injury to Boston that:

Manny, Torres, Kesler, Hansen, Alberts, Ehrhoff, Rome, Burr, Glass, Lappy, Sammy, Sami, Beiksa, Ballard, Rypien, Edler, Hamhuis were a lot tougher and in your face than what I see developing out there. There were no lightweights and the lightest of them all was the toughest.

I tend to agree with you here, alfstonker. While the play in the league is definitely incorporating more skill and speed, physicality is going nowhere. It still factors hugely into every game.

And the Western conference is a much more physical conference. If the Canucks don't bulk up this summer, they will continue to be a mediocre team. It won't matter if the roster is composed of the most talented players in the league. If those players get pasted to the boards and manhandled without any pushback, it will wear on them physically and psychologically, and the burgeoning futility we see seeping into the team's game at times, will become commonplace.

One has to look no further than the Sedins, and how they have had to increase their physicality to survive in the league. It must be extremely frustrating for those two to have to not only receive the constant physical onslaught from other teams, but to see that their is no presence on the ice to back them up. Dorsett is great, and a true teammate, but he's only one guy. Prust has proven to be a lazy, useless passenger.

[Chalky]

Just now, nergish said:

Before the trade, I was really looking forward to seeing Kassian's role on the team as a "young leader". Obviously there were issues that Benning simply could not see around, and I can't really blame him for moving someone with those kinds of off-ice issues, but I honestly do think that if we had known how physically dominant Jake Virtanen would be as a rookie, we would have kept Kassian for another year. My reasoning there being that Kass isn't just tough in the name of honour (standing up for teammates), he's a literal bully on the ice. When you have someone as physically gifted as Jake, you want them to see the ice as "theirs"... have other players on the ice always always worrying about where he is. He and Kass could have been the bash bros, and voila... we're no longer an easy team to play against.

It pleases me to no end knowing that, even if Jake goes through a scoring slump at any point throughout his career, he could potentially just snap and take an opponent out of the game. I just get the sense that at some point in the distant future, he's going to make an impact on a  game or even series without even hitting the scoresheet (points, of course, would be nice too).
 

But yeah, that's a lot of pressure on one guy. We need some more big bodies out there, especially on the back-end. 
 

Can't argue your last sentence, you're absolutely right about that.  I'm not even remotely mad at JB for trading Zack, I do wish went for picks and not Prust when we already had Dorset for the role...assuming Dorsett is not staying with the Sedins...which seems likely after last night.  I do have to wonder why JB and Trev didn't try to get him into a substance abuse program themselves, given the Canuck's commitment to mental health, perhaps they did and were met with a stubborn response.  Either way, the comment was more tongue in cheek than reality. 

[Chalky]

12 minutes ago, yoshiyoshi said:

kassian needed to be traded and waived. its his wakeup call. If we had kept him he probably wouldnt have been in that(or any) accident which forced him into rehab and has given him his chance to turn things around

Yeah, you're probably right, I am curious if our management tried to get him help though.

[tyhee]

With a decrease in staged fights in the NHL you can expect fewer fighters, but I see Benning looking to add toughness now and in the future.  In a few years I don't think you'll have to worry about the Canucks being dominated physically.

You've got a GM who in his year and a half on the job has drafted Tryamkin and Virtanen and traded for Pedan, Dorsett, Prust and Sbisa.  I see no reason to worry about this management team ignoring size, strength or physicality.

[alfstonker]

21 minutes ago, Nail3738 said:

NO!!~~~~~ 

 

Trying to copy Boston is what set the Canucks back so bloody far in the first place!!!

 

Vancouver wants a fast, skilled, high scoring, strong penalty killing team and to do that, we need to find and develop some top6 forwards/top 4 dmen as fast as we can, and to do THAT, we need to keep drafting as many players with scoring potential until we've re-built something resembling a core that doesn't suck, and then surround THOSE guys with grit and physicality, it's too early to worry about grit/physicality for this generation, besides, I get the feeling that might be ALL we have to get excited about soon.

Firstly it depends on what you mean by copying them. 

Boston played a LOT of good hockey, even in the Finals. But they played it with a physicality that helps in a best of 7. That is probably why unlike many I have so much admiration for our team at that time.

Looking back, no physical team dominated us, not the Preds, not Chicago and not the Sharks and they were all big physical teams. However they took their toll out of us and it would have been interesting to see how Boston would have fared with our run-in and we, theirs.

I don't believe we ever adopted the Boston model after the Final, how did we? 

However I am a fan of the Boston way of playing in general. That includes taking no sh-t from anyone, every man being able to defend and look after himself and his team mate if necessary and attempting to physically dominate the opposition from the outset.

That constitutes a philosophy/mindset, if it is universally bought into, of great strength of will and camaraderie and when that is allied to skill it becomes a combination hard to beat.

Also, what is generally forgotten is just how many games that physicality wins the day when skill alone is not enough to get the job done. I've watched Boston a lot over the years and the number of times they have pulled games back from being outplayed on a skills level by sheer strength and physicality is underestimated. We never had that in 2011 and we certainly don't look like we have it now.

I do acknowledge it is early days but I am not convinced we have much physicality coming through that is why I like what Jake and hopefully Etem, Hutton and Pedan will bring.