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(Discussion) possible idea to solve tanking


Visp

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I am definitely on the anti-tanking side of the fence as the idea of a professional team losing on purpose seems insane to me, though I totally get the idea of a 1st overall pick to be an amazing opportunity. I read something on this idea a while ago so I don't take full credit for it but in essence;

After the final game of the season, a one-game per round, playoff round style tournaments takes place between teams in the lower half of the standings (meaning the top 16 teams will battle for the Cup, as usual). The lower 14 teams play each other in order of standings.

Meaning:

As soon as the regular season ends and in between the playoffs beginning (usually a few days to a week I seem to remember?);

All playoff teams play a mini tournament, giving a slight home ice advantage to the teams that are HIGHER in the standings, playing the teams that are lower in the standings. There may have to be a bye first round to sort the odd rounding of numbers.

These are one game per round, winner advances with the home ice going to the team higher in the standings, 

eg.

ROUND 1

17 bye

18 vs 29

19 vs 28

20 vs 27

21 vs 26

22 vs 25

23 vs 24

___________________________________________

etc etc

ROUND 4

17 vs 18

17 wins tournament and therefore 1st overall pick

18 is second, therefore 2nd overall pick 

_____________________________________________________________

This entire draft tournament above could be fit in just before the playoffs begin as they are only 1 game series'.

This would not only remove tanking completely but add another element to the post-season and force teams to try and fight it out until the very end of the season to get better in the standings, even to the point of trading for better players at the deadline if you are last overall to move into a better drafting position.

This would also create revenue and excitement for the extra 4 games and create a 'fairer process' with teams having to  battle for a good draft spot rather than have it handed to them by the NHL. Usually this would mean the mid-table teams will draft in the top 10 which seems fair after just missing the playoffs and the the lower-table teams will draft in the 10-15 zone, which is a fair result for finishing last unless they can do well in the tournament.

Teams in playoff spots would continue to draft according to overall standings at the end of the regular season.

 

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3 minutes ago, Visp said:

I am definitely on the anti-tanking side of the fence as the idea of a professional team losing on purpose seems insane to me, though I totally get the idea of a 1st overall pick to be an amazing opportunity. I read something on this idea a while ago so I don't take full credit for it but in essence;

After the final game of the season, a one-game per round, playoff round style tournaments takes place between teams in the lower half of the standings (meaning the top 16 teams will battle for the Cup, as usual). The lower 14 teams play each other in order of standings.

Meaning:

As soon as the regular season ends and in between the playoffs beginning (usually a few days to a week I seem to remember?);

All playoff teams play a mini tournament, giving a slight home ice advantage to the teams that are HIGHER in the standings, playing the teams that are lower in the standings. There may have to be a bye first round to sort the odd rounding of numbers.

These are one game per round, winner advances with the home ice going to the team higher in the standings, 

eg.

ROUND 1

16 and 17 bye

18 vs 29

19 vs 28

20 vs 27

21 vs 26

22 vs 25

23 vs 24

___________________________________________

ROUND 2

(assuming the home team always wins in this scenario)

16 vs 23

17 vs 22

18 vs 21 

19 vs 20

__________________________________________

ROUND 3

16 vs 19

17 vs 18

_________________________________________

ROUND 4

16 vs 17

16 wins tournament and therefore 1st overall pick

17 is second, therefore 2nd overall pick 

18 lost but is third overall pick due to regular season standings tiebreak etc etc etc

_____________________________________________________________

This entire draft tournament above could be fit in just before the playoffs begin as they are only 1 game series'.

This would not only remove tanking completely but add another element to the post-season and force teams to try and fight it out until the very end of the season to get better in the standings, even to the point of trading for better players at the deadline if you are last overall to move into a better drafting position.

This would also create revenue and excitement for the extra 4 games and create a 'fairer process' with teams having to  battle for a good draft spot rather than have it handed to them by the NHL. Usually this would mean the mid-table teams will draft in the top 10 which seems fair after just missing the playoffs and the the lower-table teams will draft in the 10-15 zone, which is a fair result for finishing last unless they can do well in the tournament.

Teams in playoff spots would continue to draft according to overall standings at the end of the regular season.

 

Excellent ideas. However this is the NHL where a fairer process is a wistful idea that the Board of Directors would laugh at.

 

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NUpXZkVWZHphWk0x_o_baseketball--playoff-

"With the first nine months of the Baseketball postseason out of the way, the playoff picture is starting to emerge."

"So, with last night's victory over Boston, next week the Milwaukee Beers must beat Indianapolis in order to advance to Charlotte. That's in an effort to reduce their magic number to three."

"Right, and then the Beers can advance to the National Eastern Division North to play Tampa."

"So, if the Beers beat Detroit and Denver beats Atlanta in the American Southwestern Division East Northern, then Milwaukee goes to the Denslow Cup, unless Baltimore can upset Buffalo and Charlotte ties Toronto, then Oakland would play LA and Pittsburgh in a blind choice round robin. And if no clear winner emerges from all of this, a two-man sack race will be held on consecutive Sundays until a champion can be crowned."

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It's already been solved.

Sabres tanked for McDavid last year, didn't get him. This year rules change even further with top 3 picks all being lottery picks.

The worst team in the NHL could get the 4th overall. The worst team in the NHL only has a 20% chance at the 1st overall. 

https://www.nhl.com/news/nhl-announces-changes-to-draft-lottery-format/c-728795

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32 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Why would players care about winning a game to potentially draft a player that will likely replace them on the depth chart. Also take into consideration the players that will be UFA and don't plan on resigning.  What value does it bring them?

Sorry but this idea wasn't well thought out.

I wasn't even thinking of this when I thought about why this idea was a terrible one. But this is true, it is extra games players have to play without pay. 

I don't understand why people still complain about tanking. Would you seriously want a team like LA to play in this mini tournament? If this was how things worked last year, LA probably drafts McDavid and comes back as the scariest team in the salary cap era. Like it or not but there is a reason the worst teams should draft high as they are the ones in need of that player.

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1 hour ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Why would players care about winning a game to potentially draft a player that will likely replace them on the depth chart. Also take into consideration the players that will be UFA and don't plan on resigning.  What value does it bring them?

Sorry but this idea wasn't well thought out.

why would a team purposely play bad (in the last quarter of a season) and lose in order to gain a higher draft pick? it's the same thing just more fair of a playing field where the worst teams aren't rewarded, IMO no player ever wants to be put in a position to fail, no matter what the gain is, professional player anyway. A poster above mentioned it's now only 20%, true though this still encourages losing, if you are 4th, last you will lose in the last few games in order to gain those extra percentage points. It's the losing on purpose part that bothers me and has always bothered me! totally get the other point of view on it though! yep, the maths was wrong, my bad :) 

 

44 minutes ago, Toews said:

I wasn't even thinking of this when I thought about why this idea was a terrible one. But this is true, it is extra games players have to play without pay. 

I don't understand why people still complain about tanking. Would you seriously want a team like LA to play in this mini tournament? If this was how things worked last year, LA probably drafts McDavid and comes back as the scariest team in the salary cap era. Like it or not but there is a reason the worst teams should draft high as they are the ones in need of that player.

You mean if LA was to miss the playoffs and came 17th and dominated the thing above? absolutely yes, that's exactly right. Gives everyone a shot at winning though, as the Leafs or Carolina could just as easily win it, the worst pick they could get would be mid-first round.

 

Anyway as I said, it's based off an article i read about 3 years ago now I think, I'll try to dig it up! just an interesting thought but leaning very much towards anti-tanking mindsets obviously :)

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15 minutes ago, Visp said:

why would a team purposely play bad (in the last quarter of a season) and lose in order to gain a higher draft pick? it's the same thing just more fair of a playing field where the worst teams aren't rewarded, IMO no player ever wants to be put in a position to fail, no matter what the gain is, professional player anyway. A poster above mentioned it's now only 20%, true though this still encourages losing, if you are 4th from better you will lose in the last few games in order to gain those extra percentage points. It's the losing on purpose part that bothers and has always bothers me! totally get the other point of view on it though! yep, the maths was wrong, my bad :) 

Not to offend you but, players don’t lose on purpose.

Some teams suck in the final part of the year because mgmt. trades away assets and once a team is out of the playoff you don’t have a lot of motivation to come to work every day.  Players tend to start playing individually to show that even though my team sucks, I’m still worth x amount.  Coaches tend to also not put in the same effort with line match ups, they also start trying new line ups to see what may work for next year. 

 Players don’t care about the draft.  Why would Vbrata give two thoughts about putting any effort in a tournament after the regular season, so that canucks (who he doesn’t plan on resigning with) get a better pick.  Why would a player lay down in front of a puck to block a shot and risk a career ending injury, for a better draft pick.  What would a player like Etem or Vey put any effort when this draft pick would likely keep one of them, off the roster next year.  At the end of the day, players care about what’s best for them and their future more than they care about a hockey team,

Again the reason why this idea is so bad is because players don’t tank, mgmt does.  Your idea puts the onus on the players, players who care less about the draft, players who have zero incentive to try and that’s why this is a terrible idea and no more time should be wasted on thinking about it.

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17 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

 

Not to offend you but, players don’t lose on purpose.

Some teams suck in the final part of the year because mgmt. trades away assets and once a team is out of the playoff you don’t have a lot of motivation to come to work every day.  Players tend to start playing individually to show that even though my team sucks, I’m still worth x amount.  Coaches tend to also not put in the same effort with line match ups, they also start trying new line ups to see what may work for next year. 

 Players don’t care about the draft.  Why would Vbrata give two thoughts about putting any effort in a tournament after the regular season, so that canucks (who he doesn’t plan on resigning with) get a better pick.  Why would a player lay down in front of a puck to block a shot and risk a career ending injury, for a better draft pick.  What would a player like Etem or Vey put any effort when this draft pick would likely keep one of them, off the roster next year.  At the end of the day, players care about what’s best for them and their future more than they care about a hockey team,

Again the reason why this idea is so bad is because players don’t tank, mgmt does.  Your idea puts the onus on the players, players who care less about the draft, players who have zero incentive to try and that’s why this is a terrible idea and no more time should be wasted on thinking about it.

no offence taken (a good debate without childish name calling is good for your health!)! Yep you bring up a good point, it is management that ultimately makes the decision "to tank" and there's lots of ways to nudge a team in that direction. Naturally a player does not choose to lose (well I would hope so anyway) but as I said above, being put in that position to lose would be the worst. Agreed, Vrbata would not put in extra effort to gain a draft pick, the exact same way he would not put in extra effort if the Canucks are out of the playoffs, for some players there would be no difference in effort between tanking and attempting to win a top draft pick, though it becomes fairer anyway as you are not rewarded for coming last, you are made to earn the pick.

I truly would believe the young guns would want somebody like McDavid on their team though, hence winning a tournament would provide them with the opportunity to win a cup in the future, therefore being very beneficial in fact! I don't believe this is a terrible idea, same thing that was first said with 3vs3 etc, and the idea itself would obviously have to be investigated and explored but believe it to be worthy of thought at least :)

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5 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Why would players care about winning a game to potentially draft a player that will likely replace them on the depth chart. Also take into consideration the players that will be UFA and don't plan on resigning.  What value does it bring them?

Sorry but this idea wasn't well thought out.

Not to mention a team that actually deserves to be 20+ in the standings won't have a good chance to get the 1st overall by winning this tournament. It only really works against teams legitimately tanking.

Of course it'd never happen for many other reasons, but hey.

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understand what you are trying to do here but the point of  the draft is to reward the worst team so they can get better and join in the conversation..

Plus I don't think any player would want to play in a loser tournament. As a fan i'd probably watch but it would be a hollow victory as the emphasis should always be on the stanley cup and thats the only tournament that should be allowed in the NHL

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Here is the thing.........

NHL hockey players don't loose on purpose.........they are survivors to some degree........this an elite league.........players don't throw games.......

As Goblix has said........the draft is to equalize the talent over the years, making the league stronger as a whole. The bad teams are still the bad teams regardless.....you don't see many high end teams tank for a chance at a higher draft pick

Bad Management, scouting, injuries, head cases, etc., can all be a reason for falling in the draft, as can an aging team, or a very young team..........asset management can also be an influence

There are way to many reasons that a team can loose to punish a team to or the other.................

You can not punish a business for asset management............even if fans do not like it, just as you can't penalize a team for scooping up talent because the team is over the cap...........aka Winnipeg (Ladd and Buff) and the Islanders for picking up Boychuk and Leddy

This is business........remember.........sharks eat sharks!

 

 

 

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Why not go simple? Who cares where you place in the standings. All teams try to make the playoffs, and if you make it, great.

if you don't, all 14 teams have an equal shot at 1st overall. 7.14%.  

Then do the same for 2nd, 3rd, 4th.. If you miss the playoffs by 1 point, you have the same chance of getting any other pick in the draft as the last place team (finish dead last and you could conceivably get the 14th overall pick)

 

eliminates tanking completely.

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On 09/02/2016 at 11:20 AM, Visp said:

I am definitely on the anti-tanking side of the fence as the idea of a professional team losing on purpose seems insane to me, though I totally get the idea of a 1st overall pick to be an amazing opportunity. I read something on this idea a while ago so I don't take full credit for it but in essence;

After the final game of the season, a one-game per round, playoff round style tournaments takes place between teams in the lower half of the standings (meaning the top 16 teams will battle for the Cup, as usual). The lower 14 teams play each other in order of standings.

Meaning:

As soon as the regular season ends and in between the playoffs beginning (usually a few days to a week I seem to remember?);

All playoff teams play a mini tournament, giving a slight home ice advantage to the teams that are HIGHER in the standings, playing the teams that are lower in the standings. There may have to be a bye first round to sort the odd rounding of numbers.

These are one game per round, winner advances with the home ice going to the team higher in the standings, 

eg.

ROUND 1

17 bye

18 vs 29

19 vs 28

20 vs 27

21 vs 26

22 vs 25

23 vs 24

___________________________________________

etc etc

ROUND 4

17 vs 18

17 wins tournament and therefore 1st overall pick

18 is second, therefore 2nd overall pick 

_____________________________________________________________

This entire draft tournament above could be fit in just before the playoffs begin as they are only 1 game series'.

This would not only remove tanking completely but add another element to the post-season and force teams to try and fight it out until the very end of the season to get better in the standings, even to the point of trading for better players at the deadline if you are last overall to move into a better drafting position.

This would also create revenue and excitement for the extra 4 games and create a 'fairer process' with teams having to  battle for a good draft spot rather than have it handed to them by the NHL. Usually this would mean the mid-table teams will draft in the top 10 which seems fair after just missing the playoffs and the the lower-table teams will draft in the 10-15 zone, which is a fair result for finishing last unless they can do well in the tournament.

Teams in playoff spots would continue to draft according to overall standings at the end of the regular season.

 

Made me laugh thanks.

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*Teams that finish bottom 5 in the league (26, 27, 28, 29, 30) will get the last 5 picks of the first round. No reward for losing.

*The 16 playoff teams would draft between 10-25 in the draft.

*the remaining 9 (17th-25th) teams are in the "LOTTERY".

ODDS

25- 20%

24- 15%

23- 15%

22- 15%

21- 15%

20- 5%

19- 5%

18- 5%

17- 5%

 

So lets say the odds went exactly as planned last year, this is how the draft would have looked... 

 

1st: NJD McDavid

2nd: PHI Eichel

3rd: CLB

4th: SJS

5th: COL

6th: FLA

7th: DAL

8th: LAK

9th: BOS

24th: TB

25th: CHI

26th: CAR

27th: TOR

28th: ARZ

29th: EDM

30th: BUF

 

Lottery odds are fair and really takes out the tanking strategy. Will for GMs to make bolder decisions!

 

EDIT: i didnt add the teams that made the playoffs except the 2 finalists because im not 100% on how they rank them in the draft. Not sure if its overall standings or by when they are eliminated.

 

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