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[Discussion] Blackhawks bad asset management


Z Hockey

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1 hour ago, JV77 said:

End of thread...

You highlighted cup caliber team, we weren't talking about the whole team, we were talking about their D depth, you were trying to prove your point by making Roszival look like an all star. That was a cup caliber team and still is, but there's many other better cup caliber teams this time around. 

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12 minutes ago, Z Hockey said:

I'm not unfamiliar with any team, I never usually use plus minus or stats at all I was just trying to make a point. But regardless of the Rangers D, it is better and all around deeper than the Hawks, I am aware of Gustafsson who's been OK. Shame Edmonton let Gustafsson get away, and Svedberg is in Rockford again. Ehrhoff is only an offensive upgrade on Scuderi, Scuderi has more cup winning experience and leadership.  About the Rangers D again, McDonagh is a pretty frickin good 2-way D man and Yandle is still a 50 point great D man, Klein is zoned in defensively always and has had career high in offensive numbers with NYR, Staal is steady and better than Chicagos bottom pairing man in Roszival. Teams are getting stronger around the Hawks and their asset management is getting shakier and they are running out of options. I think St. Louis fully healthy could knock Chicago out in the first round.

What point was that?

 

How exactly is the Rangers D better? The Hawks have the best defenseman on both teams in Keith. McDonaugh is a great defenseman but he is still worse than Keith. After that the Rangers have Yandle who has his strengths but also some glaring deficiencies to his game. After that the Rangers defense falls off to include a bunch of #4 and #5 defenseman. Girardi (who by the way sucks) is forced into playing big minutes. Most Rangers fans hate their defense and the way it is deployed. The Hawks have Seabrook one of the best #2 defenseman in the league and Hjalmarsson who is the best shutdown defenseman in the league. TVR has been fairly solid defensively for the Hawks which is all that is required from him. With Gus, Svedberg, Roszival and Ehrhoff the Hawks have decent depth for the bottom pairing. Basically your entire argument is that the Rangers bottom pairing is better but you forget that the Hawks top 2 pairings played majority of the minutes in the playoffs last year.

 

If you want to argue asset management you should see what LA traded for Versteeg, Sekera and the Lecavalier/Schenn trade.

 

As far as the Rangers they traded Saarela (a very good prospect) and 2 seconds. What about the St Louis trade where they got fleeced?

 

All teams make sacrifices to bolster their teams for a run. You sacrifice assets for the opportunity to win hockey's greatest prize.

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13 minutes ago, Z Hockey said:

Big deal, LA added Lecavalier, L. Schenn, and Versteeg, then they will get Gaborik healthy next, imagine that top six. Anaheim added J. McGinn and Pirri, with Chris Stewart healthy the Ducks will have a crazy amount of depth, Boston added Stempniak and Liles, Pittsburgh since adding Hagelin, Hagelin has been fantastic with Sid, then they added J. Schultz. Colorado added Boedker, Matthias, and Eric Gelinas. So many teams got just as strong or stronger than Chicago, Ladd means diddly squat for that top six if Hossa gets injured again, which he likely will, they're without Kruger right now too, if Hossa is injured again Chicago is for sure toast.

Teravainen, Fleischmann, or Panik, aren't gonna replace him lol.

 I just don't see the depth they had before compared to previous seasons especially on D.

Rofl Ladd means "didly squat"? The Hawks had one gaping hole to fill which was a #1 LW. Andrew Shaw was playing on the Hawks top line. 

 

Lecavalier is washed up. L Schenn is pylon. Versteeg is a good depth player. LA did alright but they were a strong team to begin with.

 

Anaheim has a ton of depth they will definitely be challengers.

 

But Boston, Pittsburgh, Colorado? Are you serious? None of those teams have a shot of going anywhere. The Penguins just lost Malkin. All of them are bubble teams that end up as first/second

round fodder every year.

 

Why will Hossa get injured? Do you have a crystal ball that tells the future? Kruger is about the return. The Hawks are getting healthier just as the playoffs are ready to start. 

 

I am not saying the Hawks are definitely going to hoist the Cup but they have as good as a shot as any team. The Western conference is a tough battle anyway and it's anyone's guess who emerges from it. Discounting the Hawks due to late season struggles just doesn't make sense though. 

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27 minutes ago, Apple Juice said:

They ran with TvR last year in the playoffs and they turned out fine. Won a Cup riding on Keith, Seabrook, and Hjalmarsson. They'll do the same this postseason.

That forward group ain't getting them nowhere compared to other teams depth, and other teams D got stronger this year and is better than Chicagos was last year. Chicago is not winning the Stanley Cup. If there's another LA-CHI West Final than LA will crush them with that top nine and blueline 

 

Lucic-Kopitar-Toffoli                          Panarin-Toews-Kane

Versteeg-Carter-Gaborik                  Ladd-Anisimov-Hossa

Pearson-Shore-Lecavalier     >>>    Fleischmann-Teravainen-Shaw

King/Clifford-Lewis-Brown                Mashinter-Kruger-Weise

Andreoff-Nolan                                  Rasmussen-Panik

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21 minutes ago, Toews said:

What point was that?

 

How exactly is the Rangers D better? The Hawks have the best defenseman on both teams in Keith. McDonaugh is a great defenseman but he is still worse than Keith. After that the Rangers have Yandle who has his strengths but also some glaring deficiencies to his game. After that the Rangers defense falls off to include a bunch of #4 and #5 defenseman. Girardi (who by the way sucks) is forced into playing big minutes. Most Rangers fans hate their defense and the way it is deployed. The Hawks have Seabrook one of the best #2 defenseman in the league and Hjalmarsson who is the best shutdown defenseman in the league. TVR has been fairly solid defensively for the Hawks which is all that is required from him. With Gus, Svedberg, Roszival and Ehrhoff the Hawks have decent depth for the bottom pairing. Basically your entire argument is that the Rangers bottom pairing is better but you forget that the Hawks top 2 pairings played majority of the minutes in the playoffs last year.

 

If you want to argue asset management you should see what LA traded for Versteeg, Sekera and the Lecavalier/Schenn trade.

 

As far as the Rangers they traded Saarela (a very good prospect) and 2 seconds. What about the St Louis trade where they got fleeced?

 

All teams make sacrifices to bolster their teams for a run. You sacrifice assets for the opportunity to win hockey's greatest prize.

My point is simple, forget about Keith, Seabrook, Hjalmarsson for a sec. Roszival, Ehrhoff, Gustafsson are basically s*** compared to M. Staal and Klein who won't be overworked because they play bottom pairing but are basically top four caliber D men. Roszival is lucky to not get scratched or injured and Gustafsson has been out of the lineup lately. LA gave up Zykov and a 2nd BIG DEAL, they get a very capable top six guy who's won 2 cups with their West rival and they still have a good young power winger in Kempe. And are you actually joking about the Lecavalier trade? Lecavalier has been rejuvenated and producing well for LAs top six and they got a top six young D man who's a former 5th overall with untapped upside as well for a 3rd rounder and a C+ prospect in Weal who wasn't going to be more than a 3rd liner. Chicago lost Dano, Danault, Sekac, Dahlbeck, Broadhurst, Morin, etc. Yeah the Rangers gave up Saarela, and two 2nds, they're getting a guy who could be a 70 point player again. Plus look at that forward group now, you can put Chris Kreider on the third line, that's real depth, LAs and NYRs forward depth now is fantastic and better than Chicagos, no argument. Not Chicago with someone like Fleischmann, another speedy winger who will fly down the ice and probably hurt his knee crashing into the boards. Another injury riddled winger like Hossa, Fleischmann is also grossly inconsistent. And they add Weise who was blooming into a top six guy in Montreal and Quenneville starts making him a healthy scratch and playing "BRANDON MASHINTER" instead?? May as well scratch Panarin and Teravainen while you're at it and slot in Panik and Bickell. 

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31 minutes ago, Toews said:

Rofl Ladd means "didly squat"? The Hawks had one gaping hole to fill which was a #1 LW. Andrew Shaw was playing on the Hawks top line. 

 

Lecavalier is washed up. L Schenn is pylon. Versteeg is a good depth player. LA did alright but they were a strong team to begin with.

 

Anaheim has a ton of depth they will definitely be challengers.

 

But Boston, Pittsburgh, Colorado? Are you serious? None of those teams have a shot of going anywhere. The Penguins just lost Malkin. All of them are bubble teams that end up as first/second

round fodder every year.

 

Why will Hossa get injured? Do you have a crystal ball that tells the future? Kruger is about the return. The Hawks are getting healthier just as the playoffs are ready to start. 

 

I am not saying the Hawks are definitely going to hoist the Cup but they have as good as a shot as any team. The Western conference is a tough battle anyway and it's anyone's guess who emerges from it. Discounting the Hawks due to late season struggles just doesn't make sense though. 

Read between the lines. I said if Hossa gets injured than Ladd means nothing to that top six, there's many other teams with more depth than Chicago even with Hossa in the lineup. I never said Boston, Pittsburgh, and Colorado were big contenders, I was showing the depth they all have and any of them could knock Chicago out, I was saying those teams acquisitions were pretty good too. In fact Colorados additions are better than the Hawks IMO.  

 

Avs additions compared to Hawks

 

Boedker > Ladd

Matthias > Fleischmann    All Colorados additions are younger, faster, bigger, and have the same point totals basically.

Gelinas > Ehrhoff

 

Pittsburghs additions could be better too, the way Hagelin has been playing lately, a lot better than Ladd... Pittsburgh in fact could be a contender once Malkin is healthy, they're D makes Chicagos look thin

 

Letang-Maatta               Keith-Seabrook

Daley-Dumoulin  >>>    Hjalmarsson-TVR    

Lovejoy-Cole                 Roszival-Ehrhoff 

Pouliot-J. Schultz          Gustafsson

 

 

BTW that's a pretty stupid thing to say about LAs additions, Versteeg is more than a depth player, he was helping Carolinas top six and look what he fetched wether it was a contending team grabbing him or not. Also Luke Schenn is still young, if anyone's a pylon it's a D man like Michal Roszival on none other than the Blackhawks. Do you not see that? Lecavalier is producing and is still a good set up man on the wall, he's filling in nicely for Gaborik and when Gaborik is back LA will be so so deep, look at their depth chart. They could have Tanner Pearson or Dwight King on the 4th line, better than Chicago with Brandon "AHL" Mashinter and Richard "AHL" Panik.

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Everyone knows that Chicago cruises and then flips a switch in the Playoffs. 

 

Even in non-cup years they are often the toughest out. 

 

Stan knows the window is short, squeeze what you can for the next 5 years and give Toews and Kane support during their primes. 

 

This is the same thing Pittsburgh tried to do, but Bowman is a genius, son of the greatest coach/gm ever, Scotty Bowman. 

 

Insulting the Bowmans "asset management" makes you look ignorant. 

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@Z Hockey

 

Well you and I fundamentally disagree on player and team evaluation.

 

I have watched a ton of Versteeg over the years and I see a depth forward where you see a top 6 forward. There is a reason he got banished from Toronto, Philadelphia and eventually Florida. The Hawks traded him for virtually nothing in the summer because no one wanted to trade value for a 2.2M bottom 6 player. Getting Zykov out of LA for him is a coup.

 

Schenn is no longer a young defenseman anymore. He has been in the league long enough. What you see what you get with him.

 

Eric Staal is not even a 40 point player this year but you seem to think he can score 70 points and he is upcoming UFA.

 

Also when comparing blue lines why the hell would you forget about a team's top defenseman. The Hawks bottom pairing played around 10-15 min last year in some games even less. Keith is a beast for the Hawks in the playoffs every year. The man can play upwards of 30min in a game and you want to discount him to compare who is better among Roszival, Schenn and Staal. 

 

Anyway I am done here.

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5 minutes ago, Toews said:

@Z Hockey

 

Well you and I fundamentally disagree on player and team evaluation.

 

I have watched a ton of Versteeg over the years and I see a depth forward where you see a top 6 forward. There is a reason he got banished from Toronto, Philadelphia and eventually Florida. The Hawks traded him for virtually nothing in the summer because no one wanted to trade value for a 2.2M bottom 6 player. Getting Zykov out of LA for him is a coup.

 

Schenn is no longer a young defenseman anymore. He has been in the league long enough. What you see what you get with him.

 

Eric Staal is not even a 40 point player this year but you seem to think he can score 70 points and he is upcoming UFA.

 

Also when comparing blue lines why the hell would you forget about a team's top defenseman. The Hawks bottom pairing played around 10-15 min last year in some games even less. Keith is a beast for the Hawks in the playoffs every year. The man can play upwards of 30min in a game and you want to discount him to compare who is better among Roszival, Schenn and Staal. 

 

Anyway I am done here.

Toews I can't believe you stayed up until 3:00 AM to argue with me hahaha.  Eric Staal needed a change of scenery, he was stuck on a bottom ten team for many years, it dampens your confidence, he's not going to score 100 points anymore but I definitely think he can get back to at least 60-70 points.

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Just now, Z Hockey said:

Toews I can't believe you stayed up until 3:00 AM to argue with me hahaha.  Eric Staal needed a change of scenery, he was stuck on a bottom ten team for many years, it dampens your confidence, he's not going to score 100 points anymore but I definitely think he can get back to at least 60-70 points.

Twas fun. Good night. :)

 

In any case we will find out about who was right in a few weeks.

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15 minutes ago, SaintPatrick33 said:

Everyone knows that Chicago cruises and then flips a switch in the Playoffs. 

 

Even in non-cup years they are often the toughest out. 

 

Stan knows the window is short, squeeze what you can for the next 5 years and give Toews and Kane support during their primes. 

 

This is the same thing Pittsburgh tried to do, but Bowman is a genius, son of the greatest coach/gm ever, Scotty Bowman. 

 

Insulting the Bowmans "asset management" makes you look ignorant. 

Let's see how these playoffs go first, too because recently Bowman has gutted alot of the Blackhawks future and veteran depth IMO, Pittsburgh is still trying to do the same thing, Sid is back to Elite, he's hot right now, real hot, beaten Kaners goal streak and everything, currently on a 10 game point streak.

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6 minutes ago, Z Hockey said:

Let's see how these playoffs go first, too because recently Bowman has gutted alot of the Blackhawks future and veteran depth IMO, Pittsburgh is still trying to do the same thing, Sid is back to Elite, he's hot right now, real hot, beaten Kaners goal streak and everything, currently on a 10 game point streak.

 

Tough to win 2 in a row in todays NHL, but I think that core they have is as good as the Oilers 80 core. 

 

Keith, Seabrook, Hossa, Toews, Kane- these 5 are one of the greatest cores in hockey history, even if Bowman did make bad moves, you can still win with these 5 surrounded by project players. 

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If bad asset management equals 3 Stanley Cups - well then...i hope the Canucks end up with HORRIBLE asset management! 

 

Chicago is like that rich dude who switches luxury/super sport cars every 3 months.  Sure, he's wasting his money but he gets to drive all those wonderful cars and has a different girl with him in the car each time.

 

 

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1) Players you sign/trade/acquire can go either way. Some work out (Panarin, Anisimov, TVR), and some don't (Daley, Scuderi, Dano). Good GMs simply hit more than they miss, and when they do miss, they don't force the issue to save face.

 

2) A team with cap troubles who needs to lose salary in a deal will always take a hit in value. Sharp or Saad would have been retained if they had room for them, but they simply couldn't keep them.

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10 hours ago, JV77 said:

That's all that matters though.  Say horrible asset management, I say horrible cup management by almost every other team...

 

And how can you say horrible asset management when they are always contenders?

Even the best make mistakes.  I don't really see the OP trying to argue that the Blackhawks suck or that Bowman is a bad GM, he's just pointing out a situation where the screwed up badly. Perhaps he could be seen as nitpicking but saying "BUT 3 CUPS" shuts down any sort of nuanced discussion.

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4 hours ago, SaintPatrick33 said:

 

Tough to win 2 in a row in todays NHL, but I think that core they have is as good as the Oilers 80 core. 

 

Keith, Seabrook, Hossa, Toews, Kane- these 5 are one of the greatest cores in hockey history, even if Bowman did make bad moves, you can still win with these 5 surrounded by project players. 

I think I'd compare them more to the Colorado Avalanche and Detroit Red Wings teams in the 90's.  Oilers still win on account of Gretzky.

 

Still no small accomplishment as the Blackhawks have to deal with the Cap and those team didn't.

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So they traded their Sharp as it was...but wait!   They still have a cup, are still the best or one of the best teams in the league.

 

And Have a Panarin to pick up the slack which was 9 years younger than their version of Sharp

 

At days end it doesn't matter.  Much like my scenario here, it doesn't matter.  If I wasn't so hung over and exhausted I'd have made a better comparison.

 

But the reality is it was Sharp or Hossa leaving and with that cap hit Sharp was the obvious man out, Panarin steps in like nobodies business is younger, cheaper and allows the Hawks to develop the rest of their kids who are looking very good indeed and are in line for another deep playoff run and potential cup win.

 

Let us be honest, if it was the canucks, all we'd be thinking of is the cup win we had, the cup win we were looking towards and the fact that the only person who could touch our calder candidate would be McJesus or Phillys Gostisbehere

 

Asset management is subjective, as at this point in time the Hawks look just fine 

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