Benning's negotiation skills are downright horrible

[Harvey Spector]

29 minutes ago, JamesB said:

I think the OP's point is primarily about salary negotiations, not about evaluation of prospects (like Baertschi). I think is pretty consensus on CDC and among the hockey community generally that Benning is good at evaluating prospects. I also think that many people believe that Benning has done a bad job of negotiating contracts. Certainly that is my opinion. I know I am repeating myself as I have made this comment in other threads, but Benning does not seem to "get" the salary cap.

 

I would also complain about the Miller contract and the Vrbata contract. I am not saying Miller is a bad goalie. Since starting with the Canucks his numbers a close to average for an NHL starter (a little below). That is a high standard. The problem is that the cap hit is much too high.

 

As for Vrby, he had a very first year and a very disappointing second year. However, I would say that his combined total over two years is pretty close to the overall expected value and 5 million a year is too much for that output. Yes, he is a skilled player, but once you have talked about his ability to score goals you have pretty much covered his value. He is small, soft, not particularly fast, and not particularly good defensively.

 

It seems pretty clear (partly from what Gilman has said) that Gilman he and Benning had some disagreements. I think firing Gilman was a big mistake. Benning needed to hear that kind of criticism instead of just surrounding himself with yes-men.

Miller was a necessity as Markstrom was still an unknown and actually was put on waivers ( nobody claimed him), while Lack had shared goaltending duties with Luongo the year prior and was still not a legit starter in the league. Benning had to overpay in order to get Miler to come to Vancouver, so the 3 year $18 million deal was a necessity to land a starting goalie in free agency. Benning even said he didn't feel comfortable going with Lack as his starter so that's why he made that move. Honestly the Miller signing is the least of our problems right now, goaltending is our strongest attribute at the moment. 

 

As for Vrbata he was a UFA coming off a decent year and had scored 35 goals a couple years prior. We needed goal scoring so Benning pulled the trigger on him. No one complained last year when he got 31 goals, however his playoff performance left something to be desired. No one could have predicted his downfall this year. His pouting of not playing with the Sedins probably contributed to his horrible year. But JB couldn't have predicted that. Hindsight is 20/20. At least he only signed him to a two year deal so he's off the books in a month so we don't have to worry about him anymore. 

 

As for JB's handling of the salary cap I wouldn't say he is the next Lou Lamoriello but at the end of the day we will have close to $17 million in cap space this summer which should be enough to sign all of our RFA's that Benning wants to keep plus allow us to land at least one big fish in free agency. I don't think anyone can complain about that. 

 

As for Benning's salary negotiations the only one I really have problems with is Sbisa. And I will give him a mulligan on that one as even the best screw up once in a while and maybe he was drunk that day.  Sutter was gonna be a UFA in a year so he would have got $4.5m in free agency. As for Dorsett he is a team player and adds toughness and tenacity that is lacking in most of our forwards and again he was a pending UFA so I don't have a problem with his contract. Sbisa is the only one where I say WTF because he was an RFA and didn't have the same leverage as the other two guys had as UFA's. 

[Toews]

 

33 minutes ago, Rocky Balboa said:

Ok, so tell us your ideas on what you would have done and also get NHL players to agree with you. 

 

Also, tell us your backup plan of who to replace these players with if we didn't sign them. 

 

 

That isn't so hard. Franson instead of Sbisa on the summer. Would have given the Canucks a RHD with a very good shot on the PP. You would gave gotten that for less term and less money than Sbisa.

 

For 2.6M you have a choice of just about any depth player who won't require term either. 

 

 

 

5 minutes ago, SILLY GOOSE said:

Those guys would have made just as much if not more on the open market.  They don't kill the Canucks cap wise either so why people gripe about it is beyond me.  They are good people that work hard that are being fairly paid.  

 

I would sure love to work for someone that tries to nickle and dime whatever they can out of you.........

Except they aren't. They are overpaid for what they bring. You may disregard the consequences but it sets a bad precedent for future signings.

 

This is a valid criticism of Benning's work thus far. 

[Angry Goose]

1 minute ago, Toews said:

 

 

 

 

Except they aren't. They are overpaid for what they bring.

In your and other trolls opinions

[Toews]

Just now, SILLY GOOSE said:

In your and other trolls opinions

Maybe you should learn what a troll is before you accuse people of being one.

 

Hint: It doesn't mean someone that disagrees with your opinion.

[Harvey Spector]

15 minutes ago, Toews said:

 

That isn't so hard. Franson instead of Sbisa on the summer. Would have given the Canucks a RHD with a very good shot on the PP. You would gave gotten that for less term and less money than Sbisa.

 

For 2.6M you have a choice of just about any depth player who won't require term either. 

 

 

 

Except they aren't. They are overpaid for what they bring. You may disregard the consequences but it sets a bad precedent for future signings.

 

This is a valid criticism of Benning's work thus far. 

Sutter and Dorsett were pending UFA's. Say what you will about their current contributions but on the open market what they are getting is considered fair value. Other GM's would have paid the same amount. As for Sbisa, yes he is overpaid and as an RFA he didn't have much leverage either so I will call out JB on that one.  You can't win them all. Even Bowman and Holland screwed up once in a while. 

 

I don't understand the fascination of people calling out JB on EVERY single move he makes, like they are all in isolation. Every move is followed by another. It is a collaborative effort to build a TEAM and an eventual winner. If you went through each and every deal that Holland and Lamoriello did throughout their careers I am sure you will find a lemon or two. The ONLY thing that matters is the results on the ice.

 

Yeah we suck right now but we also sucked real bad when Quinn took over, but after he drafted Linden and made some great trades we were contenders. Same with Burke. We sucked real bad when he arrived. But as soon as he got the Sedins and again made some great trades we were contenders again. 

 

Well we sucked when Benning took over as well.  So now he has made some good draft picks and has a chance at a top 3 pick this year just like Quinn and Burke had. So let's see what he does with that pick and what he does this summer in terms of trades and free agency. I am hoping and crossing my fingers that he follows in the same footsteps as Quinn and Burke and rebuilds this team into a contender again. 

[Toews]

24 minutes ago, Harvey Spector said:

Miller was a necessity as Markstrom was still an unknown and actually was put on waivers ( nobody claimed him), while Lack had shared goaltending duties with Luongo the year prior and was still not a legit starter in the league. Benning had to overpay in order to get Miler to come to Vancouver, so the 3 year $18 million deal was a necessity to land a starting goalie in free agency. Benning even said he didn't feel comfortable going with Lack as his starter so that's why he made that move. Honestly the Miller signing is the least of our problems right now, goaltending is our strongest attribute at the moment. 

 

As for Dorsett he is a team player and adds toughness and tenacity that is lacking in most of our forwards and again he was a pending UFA so I don't have a problem with his contract. Sbisa is the only one where I say WTF because he was an RFA and didn't have the same leverage as the other two guys had as UFA's. 

I don't mind Benning chasing Miller. I just think 6M and 3 years was a very steep price to pay for an aging goaltender coming off a very mediocre stint with the Blues. It's quite telling that the guy that was expected to be the starter failed to outperform the designated backups in both of his 2 years here thus far. 

 

I can understand the Dorsett move but the Canucks moved a 3rd for him and gave him more than he deserved for more term than he deserved. 

 

The Sutter, Vrbata contracts I agree with you on. Sutter IMO not overpaid for what he brings. Vrbata was a calculated risk, it paid off year 1 and I don't think anyone can reasonably predict that it would backfire so spectacularly in year 2. 

[oldnews]

hungry trolls circling.

[Toews]

2 minutes ago, Harvey Spector said:

Sutter and Dorsett were pending UFA's. Say what you will about their current contributions but on the open market what they are getting is considered fair value. Other GM's would have paid the same amount. As for Sbisa, yes he is overpaid and as an RFA he didn't have much leverage either so I will call out JB on that one.  You can't win them all. Even Bowman and Holland screwed up once in a while. 

 

I don't understand the fascination of people calling out JB on EVERY single move he makes, like they are all in isolation. Every move is followed by another. It is a collaborative effort to build a TEAM and an eventual winner. If you went through each and every deal that Holland and Lamoriello did throughout their careers I am sure you will find a lemon or two. The ONLY thing that matters is the results on the ice.

 

Yeah we suck right now but we also sucked real bad when Quinn took over, but after he drafted Linden and made some great trades we were contenders. Same with Burke. We sucked real bad when he arrived. But as soon as he got the Sedins and again made some great trades we were contenders again. 

 

Well we sucked when Benning took over as well.  So now he has made some good draft picks and has a chance at a top 3 pick this year just like Quinn and Burke had. So let's see what he does with that pick and what he does this summer in terms of trades and free agency. I am hoping and crossing my fingers that he follows in the same footsteps as Quinn and Burke and rebuilds this team into a contender again. 

It's possible that Dorsett would have gotten that contract in free agency and I would be glad that some other team overpaid for him instead. Benning was committed when he paid a 3rd for Dorsett, it's a case where the player has more leverage than the GM when negotiating and it's reflected in the contract.

 

I think people want to discuss the good moves and the bad moves. I am more than willing to praise Benning for  contracts like Sutter and Tanev. I don't like the Miller, Dorsett or Sbisa contracts though and objectively speaking they are being paid more than they deserve for their contributions on the ice. It's not the end of the world but it is a valid talking point. I don't understand why people overreact and try to stifle any discussion critiquing Benning.

[bigbadcanucks]

5 minutes ago, Harvey Spector said:

Miller was a necessity as Markstrom was still an unknown and actually was put on waivers ( nobody claimed him), while Lack had shared goaltending duties with Luongo the year prior and was still not a legit starter in the league. Benning had to overpay in order to get Miler to come to Vancouver, so the 3 year $18 million deal was a necessity to land a starting goalie in free agency. Benning even said he didn't feel comfortable going with Lack as his starter so that's why he made that move. Honestly the Miller signing is the least of our problems right now, goaltending is our strongest attribute at the moment. 

 

As for Vrbata he was a UFA coming off a decent year and had scored 35 goals a couple years prior. We needed goal scoring so Benning pulled the trigger on him. No one complained last year when he got 31 goals, however his playoff performance left something to be desired. No one could have predicted his downfall this year. His pouting of not playing with the Sedins probably contributed to his horrible year. But JB couldn't have predicted that. Hindsight is 20/20. At least he only signed him to a two year deal so he's off the books in a month so we don't have to worry about him anymore. 

 

As for JB's handling of the salary cap I wouldn't say he is the next Lou Lamoriello but at the end of the day we will have close to $17 million in cap space this summer which should be enough to sign all of our RFA's that Benning wants to keep plus allow us to land at least one big fish in free agency. I don't think anyone can complain about that. 

 

As for Benning's salary negotiations the only one I really have problems with is Sbisa. And I will give him a mulligan on that one as even the best screw up once in a while and maybe he was drunk that day.  Sutter was gonna be a UFA in a year so he would have got $4.5m in free agency. As for Dorsett he is a team player and adds toughness and tenacity that is lacking in most of our forwards and again he was a pending UFA so I don't have a problem with his contract. Sbisa is the only one where I say WTF because he was an RFA and didn't have the same leverage as the other two guys had as UFA's. 

Agree with all your points...with the exception of Sbisa.  Benning expected/expects Sbisa to be a top 4 (ref: the video clip that shows Benning talking Sbisa trade with his staff), but unfortunately, Sbisa has been the second coming of Sami Salo on the injury front.  Time is probably running out on Sbisa, but I still think he can be a top four guy for the Canucks if he can stay healthy.

 

I liked the Dorsett signing when it happened and I still like it...the problem with Dorsett, as I see it, is that he's being thrown up against the heavyweights of the Western Conference and Pacific Division, when he's a middleweight.  He's a guy who can move between the third and fourth line, kill penalties, agitate, demonstrate good work ethic, and be a solid in the room.  For me, there's value in a player like this...sort of like Burrows (and it could be argued that Burrows is now overpaid).

 

I thought both Miller and Vrbata were two of the better UFA signings in 2014...Miller has given the Canucks a chance to compete in the first two periods of most his starts which is what you can hope for in your starter regardless of the kind of money they are getting paid...Vrbata, unfortunately has become a monumental disappointment since April 2015  and I will be shocked if he gets re-signed by any team other than a KHL franchise.

 

All-in-all, I'm pretty satisfied with how Benning and his staff have managed the players.  After 2012, it was clear the Canucks were due for a long downturn, but Aquilini wanted to try to win with a beaten up old core, which delayed the inevitable. 

 

A legit top four UFA d-man signing, a legit top six power forward UFA signing, Hamhuis at 2 years @ $4.0M AAV, Markstrom extension of 3 years @ $3.75M AAV, Horvat extension of 3 years @ $3.5M AAV, Gaunce extension of 2 years @ $1.25M AAV, Baertschi at 2 years @ $2.5M AAV, Pedan at 2 years @ $1.0M AAV, Q-offers to Granlund, Vey, Etem, Grenier, Kenins, Fedun, Zalewski, Friesen, and UFA college signings of Troy Stecher, Drake Caggulia, and Alex Lyon to 3 year ELC and I'll be super stoked.  And signing Boeser and Demko this spring to ELC will also be sweeteners to a successful off-season for JB.

[Harvey Spector]

3 minutes ago, Toews said:

I don't mind Benning chasing Miller. I just think 6M and 3 years was a very steep price to pay for an aging goaltender coming off a very mediocre stint with the Blues. It's quite telling that the guy that was expected to be the starter failed to outperform the designated backups in both of his 2 years here thus far. 

 

I can understand the Dorsett move but the Canucks moved a 3rd for him and gave him more than he deserved for more term than he deserved. 

 

The Sutter, Vrbata contracts I agree with you on. Sutter IMO not overpaid for what he brings. Vrbata was a calculated risk, it paid off year 1 and I don't think anyone can reasonably predict that it would backfire so spectacularly in year 2. 

Agreed. Again the Miller contract was out of necessity as he had the leverage and wouldn't sign for less than 3 years. And JB wasn't comfortable going into the year with Lack as the starter and his 41 total games played in the NHL.  You can argue whether those backups outplayed Miller the last two years. Miller has gotten hurt both years so you take away the injuries and I'm pretty sure he outplays both Lack and Markstrom.

 

I think Miller has been solid  this year. You can't say he's had a bad year really. Markstrom has been great and I think our future is bright with him and Demko. But I like the fact we will have Miler for one more year with Markstrom. And then Markstrom can officially take the reigns in 2017. Also remember that as a veteran I am sure Miller is helping Markstrom tremendously behind the scenes. That's something that is not talked about and why Benning kept Miller over Lack. You can't teach experience. I'm sure Miller's experience in the league and playing in the Olympics is rubbing off on Markstrom in ways we can't really measure. All those practices together and days off hanging out and talking about how to get better. I'm sure Miller has been a good mentor to Markstrom. That is something that can't be overlooked  

[higgyfan]

Generally speaking, unless a player's career is trending downward, they get a salary increase in their contract.  UFAs usually get a little bit more than fair market value.

 

The players that the OP mentions, along with others that have been noted, are all within range of similar players in the league.  For instance, would you rather have Sbisa or Fayne, Smid, Ferrance or Despres?   Dorsett or Clutterbuck, Greening, Nystrom or Korpikoski?  There may be a slight over/underpayment with some of these players, but hardly something to dine on.

 

When you look at players amongst their peers, you have to take into context the skills, role, age, length of contract and what the player brings to the team on and off the ice. 

 

http://www.spotrac.com/nhl/rankings/2016/cap-hit/

 

 

[Toews]

Just now, Harvey Spector said:

Agreed. Again the Miller contract was out of necessity as he had the leverage and wouldn't sign for less than 3 years. And JB wasn't comfortable going into the year with Lack as the starter and his 41 total games played in the NHL.  You can argue whether those backups outplayed Miller the last two years. Miller has gotten hurt both years so you take away the injuries and I'm pretty sure he outplays both Lack and Markstrom.

 

I think Miller has been solid  this year. You can't say he's had a bad year really. Markstrom has been great and I think our future is bright with him and Demko. But I like the fact we will have Miler for one more year with Markstrom. And then Markstrom can officially take the reigns in 2017. Also remember that as a veteran I am sure Miller is helping Markstrom tremendously behind the scenes. That's something that is not talked about and why Benning kept Miller over Lack. You can't teach experience. I'm sure Miller's experience in the league and playing in the Olympics is rubbing off on Markstrom in ways we can't really measure. All those practices together and days off hanging out and talking about how to get better. I'm sure Miller has been a good mentor to Markstrom. That is something that can't be overlooked  

It's the not the end of the world to me. The Canucks aren't contenders next year. It's not like Miller's contract is harming the team.

 

In fact I am actually hoping that Benning shows some restraint in free agency. Offer up a fair price but if outbid, walk away from the table. Wouldn't mind this team not being a cap team next year. The Canucks should manage their money responsibly for when it comes time to pay the next core.

[cripplereh]

Sbisa is playing good and Sutter well was out 3 games 5 years prior and is worth that,Dorsett would have got tht as a free agent,so all signing were at par and worth it!

[soshified]

1 hour ago, Maniwaki Canuck said:

Agreed:  I didn't like the trades JB made last summer but in retrospect, dumping Gilman may have been the worst move.  Not many organizations are smart enough to truly value dissenting opinions, though. 

You seem to forget that Gilman was part of an era that handed out pretty bad contracts as well.

[-SN-]