<DarkGhost> Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 Over the last few weeks, as the Canucks have strung together a few wins (against all odds), there has been a lot of talk suggesting that 'Tanking' was never a good idea. The Oilers are used as the prime example of why tanking doesn't work. One example...and all of the sudden...tanking ALWAYS doesn't work. I beg to differ. While the oilers have been unsuccessful at turning their ship around after acquiring 1st overall pick after 1st overall pick...that isn't a result of finishing in last place. That is a result of poor management. Good management would have surrounded one or two of their 1st overall picks with support talent and leadership to build a winning team. Instead of hoping that single-handedly Hall or the Nuge would be able to BE a winning team. 'Tanking' is a necessary evil when it comes to rebuilding a team. Pens - sucked for a long time...got Crosby...won a cup Caps - sucked for a long time...got Ovie...top team almost every year Chicago - sucked for a long time...got Kane and Toews...won 3 cups Islanders - sucked for a long time...got Tavares...one of the top teams in the league Ducks - sucked for a long time...drafted Perry and Getzlaf...won a cup and top team I could go on... Heck even the Canucks! They were horrible...made some moves and drafted 2nd and 3rd and got the Sedins. Which is ONE draft, changed this franchise for the next 10-15 years. So while tanking every year and relying on top draft pick after top draft pick isn't the way to go. Finishing low a few years in a row...and then bringing in support for those high end draft picks...that is the way to go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Biestra Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 Some people just have difficulty getting their minds around undergoing some short term displeasure to make things better in the long run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaudette Celly Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 One or two players doesn't win you a cup, you have to build a team. The Oilers had Gretzky but were garbage until they got the rest of their core, of which only Paul Coffey was a high pick. Btw, do you realize where Perry and Getzlaf were drafted? Pens still have Crosby and even added Malkin -- how've they been doing? How many cups have the Caps won since drafting Ovechkin 12 years ago? Islanders haven't even been able to make the playoffs consistently with Tavares, only 2 out of 6 years since drafting him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toews Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 But...but... but but but... Losing culture! Edmonton! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toews Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 1 minute ago, Hutton Wink said: One or two players doesn't win you a cup, you have to build a team. The Oilers had Gretzky but were garbage until they got the rest of their core, of which only Paul Coffey was a high pick. Btw, do you realize where Perry and Getzlaf were drafted? Pens still have Crosby and even added Malkin -- how've they been doing? How many cups have the Caps won since drafting Ovechkin 12 years ago? Islanders haven't even been able to make the playoffs consistently with Tavares, only 2 out of 6 years since drafting him. You are like a broken record. Not a single person in this thread thus far has argued that all you need is a couple of high picks. Taken right from the OP. "Good management would have surrounded one or two of their 1st overall picks with support talent and leadership to build a winning team." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaudette Celly Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 2 minutes ago, Toews said: You are like a broken record. Not a single person in this thread thus far has argued that all you need is a couple of high picks. Taken right from the OP. "Good management would have surrounded one or two of their 1st overall picks with support talent and leadership to build a winning team." The OP openly advocated "tanking", and talked about #1 overall picks, yet neglected to observe where all those players he listed were taken. It's a weak argument and fails because of its shallowness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
<DarkGhost> Posted April 5, 2016 Author Share Posted April 5, 2016 The general premise here guys isn't that tanking and getting some good players guarantees you a cup. It's that it at least has a good chance of making your team a contender for the cup. When the Sedins are gone...we are so screwed. To replace players that you drafted at the top...you need to again draft players at the top. It's like people block out how we got our star players in the first place...and then expect to get replacements for them magically in the middle of the draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
<DarkGhost> Posted April 5, 2016 Author Share Posted April 5, 2016 6 minutes ago, Hutton Wink said: The OP openly advocated "tanking", and talked about #1 overall picks, yet neglected to observe where all those players he listed were taken. It's a weak argument and fails because of its shallowness. I talked about the Oilers 1st over all picks and that was it. Tanking doesn't mean 1st over all picks. But good job trying to pick holes in an argument by bringing up something marginal at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toews Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 17 minutes ago, The 5th Line said: The pens got the best player of the last 10 years and another in Malkin who is a top 10 forward in the league himself and for a few years he could of been argued as the best player on the planet during Crosbys absense. They also had a first overall pick goaltender and an elite defenceman in Letang. They only have 1 cup. The Islanders have been awful for years, they got Tavares, they have had numerous top picks, they have won how many playoffs series' since then? Perry and Getzlaf were drafted something like 17th and 24th overall respectively.. Columbus has had a top 10 pick in 10 of the last 11 season, including a first overall pick Rick Nash. How many playoff series' have they won? Chicago is good because of the trades and UFA signings ie Marian Hossa as well as the late round steals ie Duncan Keith L.A trades and signings. ie Jeff Carter, Mike Richards, Johhny Quick.. the list goes on. The Pens decline can be explained by their inability to supplement their core. They traded picks, prospects and their future to pick up mediocre players like Douglas Murray. The Islanders have been operating on one of the lowest budgets in the league. Now that they have moved to Brooklyn and have more money in the coffers, it will be interesting to see where they take that team. I don't have the confidence that this team can find franchise players with lower picks. Columbus has been a terribly run organization for a long time. They rushed prospects and ruined many of them. They also operated on a strict budget. Chicago is also great because they have Toews and Kane. LA drafted Doughty with the 2nd overall pick. They traded their 5th overall pick in order to acquire Richards. While they were sucking they were stockpiling picks and talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Buzzsaw* Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 All those advocates of tanking really should have watched the Calgary vs Edmonton game last Saturday. After the first goal by Calgary, Edmonton collapsed. Result: 5-0 for Calgary. Almost the entire Edmonton team, including McDavid, looked like whipped dogs through the game... the only exceptions were Kassian and Hendricks. That Edmonton dressing room is complete poison... there is no spirit, no drive, NOTHING. They have no resilience at all. Does anyone remember back when they first got their "New Blood", ie. Hall, Eberle and Nugent Hopkins? There was actually some optimism in the team... you could see the excitement... they wanted to win. But the management of the team had nothing in place to back the young guys up, no veterans, no defense, no goaltending. Now, 3 or 4 years later, all the spirit has been ground out of the team... they don't believe in themselves, they have no desire to win. Look what the most respected commentator in hockey has to say. Bob Mackenzie: "Oilers are damaged goods". There is only so long that a team can go with a losing culture till the players are ruined. Then you have to split the team up and start all over. Edmonton has McDavid, but they may need to get rid of all the previous drafts and replace them with other players to rebuild the team spirit they need to support him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toews Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 9 minutes ago, Hutton Wink said: The OP openly advocated "tanking", and talked about #1 overall picks, yet neglected to observe where all those players he listed were taken. It's a weak argument and fails because of its shallowness. Tanking doesn't just mean drafting with high picks. It also means stockpiling picks and prospects for anyone perceived to not be part of the long term future. LA did that, while they were bad they accumulated talent. It didn't matter that a guy like Thomas Hickey didn't work out at 4th overall. They had enough picks in the late rounds to unearth talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
<DarkGhost> Posted April 5, 2016 Author Share Posted April 5, 2016 4 minutes ago, *Buzzsaw* said: All those advocates of tanking really should have watched the Calgary vs Edmonton game last Saturday. After the first goal by Calgary, Edmonton collapsed. Result: 5-0 for Calgary. Almost the entire Edmonton team, including McDavid, looked like whipped dogs through the game... the only exceptions were Kassian and Hendricks. That Edmonton dressing room is complete poison... there is no spirit, no drive, NOTHING. They have no resilience at all. Does anyone remember back when they first got their "New Blood", ie. Hall, Eberle and Nugent Hopkins? There was actually some optimism in the team... you could see the excitement... they wanted to win. But the management of the team had nothing in place to back the young guys up, no veterans, no defense, no goaltending. Now, 3 or 4 years later, all the spirit has been ground out of the team... they don't believe in themselves, they have no desire to win. Look what the most respected commentator in hockey has to say. Bob Mackenzie: "Oilers are damaged goods". There is only so long that a team can go with a losing culture till the players are ruined. Then you have to split the team up and start all over. Edmonton has McDavid, but they may need to get rid of all the previous drafts and replace them with other players to rebuild the team spirit they need to support him. My point still stands... If the Oilers didn't have monkeys for management... They would have surrounded their young talent with strong leaders and pros early on. Then the Oilers you see now would have been like the Hawks. Those individual high draft pick players on the Oilers aren't bad. What their management did with those pics...is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter Soldier Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 8 minutes ago, *Buzzsaw* said: Bob Mackenzie: "Oilers are damaged goods". Boom. You don't want that poison to seep into the spirits of your players, because no top three pick is going to save you from that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter Soldier Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 34 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said: Some people just have difficulty getting their minds around undergoing some short term displeasure to make things better in the long run. I'm sure Islanders fans are thrilled that they got an exceptional status player in John Tavares. Not that they've won a playoff series in a decade since then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathew Barzal Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 It's easier to point at the Oiler's and use than as an example than to treat them as what they actually are, which is an anomaly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TU90 Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 I think our team has potential. We have leaders, we have young players, we have passion. I also think that adding a high end player in this messed up year (mostly due to injuries) would do nothing but help us. We're not the Oilers. We don't just plain suck. That argument is irreverent. This year sucked, and it would have been nothing but beneficial to get some high end talent from it to add to our bright future. Hopefully we're still able to do that with a higher pick, but one of those Finns would have been sweet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Biestra Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 9 minutes ago, Winter Soldier said: I'm sure Islanders fans are thrilled that they got an exceptional status player in John Tavares. Not that they've won a playoff series in a decade since then. You can cherry pick examples all you want. Edmonton sucks, therefore...high picks are useless? Islanders haven't won a playoff series, therefore...can't build around Tavares? Did you know that Sidney Crosby was -3 on January 4, 2013? He must suck. Would you rather build around Tavares or Horvat? You can look at how Edmonton sucks, or how Chicago has built a dynasty in the salary cap era. The fact is, you're going to be hard pressed to find Cup winners that don't have a top five pick on their team. If you'd rather have two extra points in the standings while guaranteed to miss the playoffs anyway than a better draft choice, then you're free to have that preference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter Soldier Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 3 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said: You can look at how Edmonton sucks, or how Chicago has built a dynasty in the salary cap era. Mostly by getting significant contributions from players drafted outside the first round in successive drafts? Getting such standout talents later even as most of their successive top ten picks were busts like Jack Skille and Cam Barker? Kane and Toews alone do not a dynasty make. The same reason that Crosby and Malkin haven't won again since most of their significant supporting players were never replaced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Romo Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 Los Angeles? st Louis? anaheim? Dallas? minnesota? all really good teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insomniac604 Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 Tanking is done by management, not by coaches or players. You look at last year's Buffalo team as a perfect example. Goalie was winning too many games. So they shipped him out. But the coaches & players still skated to win. Everyone on the ice is playing for a job. Nobody in their right mind would purposely tank at that level because it could mean a goodbye kiss. But, definitely, management can build a roster that has a low chance of success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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