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Just now, drummerboy said:

I don't blame him either, but you can't ignore the fact that he was bad enough that he couldn't get a contract from Edmonton. 

They suck that bad, and they didn't want him.  He couldn't make them any better. 

 

Again, let's hope he turned that around. 

They landed generational freaking McJesus last year and still finished 2nd last.

 

I'm sorry but a young, developing offensive #6D shouldn't be expected to 'make them any better' all on his own on a team that has never heard of defensive structure or back checking.

 

For a guy like him to find any success and develop as an offensive D, he needs to be paired with a steady, defensively sound partner and have a forward group committed to 2 way play and back checking that allows him the freedom to create without the constant risk of that creativity ending up back in his own net more often than not. (Sounds kind of like the environment Benning is putting together in Van, eh?). Does that sound anything like EDM of 2 years ago?

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11 minutes ago, J.R. said:

They landed generational freaking McJesus last year and still finished 2nd last.

 

I'm sorry but a young, developing offensive #6D shouldn't be expected to 'make them any better' all on his own on a team that has never heard of defensive structure or back checking.

 

For a guy like him to find any success and develop as an offensive D, he needs to be paired with a steady, defensively sound partner and have a forward group committed to 2 way play and back checking that allows him the freedom to create without the constant risk of that creativity ending up back in his own net more often than not. (Sounds kind of like the environment Benning is putting together in Van, eh?). Does that sound anything like EDM of 2 years ago?

I agree with most of what you are saying.  

Personally, I'm not a fan of one dimensional players. That's why I said I hope he has picked up his defensive game. 

If Tryamkin can really play a solid shutdown role, I'd be fine with Larsen going out and doing his own thing on that pairing. 

It's a safer move to stick with Sbisa, who is really starting to get his game together.  

For the most part tho, I agree with you J.R

i was more arguing about not wanting to trade Tanev or Edler to make a spot for Larsen.    That is just silly.    

It is Sbisa or Tryamkin who will be fighting with Larsen for that spot.  And because of Tryamkins contract out to go back to Russia, it is mostly Sbisa who has to worry. 

 At the end of last season, Sbisa was arguably our best Dman.   If he continues that run, do you think Larsen will take his place?

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14 minutes ago, drummerboy said:

I agree with most of what you are saying.  

Personally, I'm not a fan of one dimensional players. That's why I said I hope he has picked up his defensive game. 

If Tryamkin can really play a solid shutdown role, I'd be fine with Larsen going out and doing his own thing on that pairing. 

It's a safer move to stick with Sbisa, who is really starting to get his game together.  

For the most part tho, I agree with you J.R

i was more arguing about not wanting to trade Tanev or Edler to make a spot for Larsen.    That is just silly.    

It is Sbisa or Tryamkin who will be fighting with Larsen for that spot.  And because of Tryamkins contract out to go back to Russia, it is mostly Sbisa who has to worry. 

 At the end of last season, Sbisa was arguably our best Dman.   If he continues that run, do you think Larsen will take his place?

I agree, moving Edler or Tanev at this point would be silly. Though if all of Larsen, Tryamkin and Pedan make serious strides this season, the TDL could be a different story. We shall see.

 

Even Sbisa, I think they'll wait to see how the first ~month or two are looking before they make a serious effort to move (if at all). Though I can't imagine he'll be too happy if he's press box bound more often than not.

 

As for Larsen, I'd say 6th spot is his to lose in camp. They want a guy to play on the PP regularly and he's penciled in there with a pretty dark pencil IMO, if not quite pen.

 

The 5th spot will be Sbisa or Tryamkin IMO. (though they'll likely both see regular time with injuries and Try occasionally watching even if he nabs the 5th spot).

 

But regardless, longer term (later this year/next summer), SOMEONE is going to need to be moved out and Try has far more upside than Sbisa long term.

Edited by J.R.
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6 hours ago, J.R. said:

The entire team played/was coached like 'pooh' and his usage was highly questionable. He could clearly see he was better off developing elsewhere than a poorly managed, tire fire.

 

I don't blame the guy one bit for getting the duck out of fodge.

At least he only had 30 games of pooh-tainting, unlike Justin Schultz with 4 season's worth.

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5 hours ago, J.R. said:

I agree, moving Edler or Tanev at this point would be silly. Though if all of Larsen, Tryamkin and Pedan make serious strides this season, the TDL could be a different story. We shall see.

 

Even Sbisa, I think they'll wait to see how the first ~month or two are looking before they make a serious effort to move (if at all). Though I can't imagine he'll be too happy if he's press box bound more often than not.

 

As for Larsen, I'd say 6th spot is his to lose in camp. They want a guy to play on the PP regularly and he's penciled in there with a pretty dark pencil IMO, if not quite pen.

 

The 5th spot will be Sbisa or Tryamkin IMO. (though they'll likely both see regular time with injuries and Try occasionally watching even if he nabs the 5th spot).

 

But regardless, longer term (later this year/next summer), SOMEONE is going to need to be moved out and Try has far more upside than Sbisa long term.

I agree that trading Edler or Tanev may not be a wise move yet as we already have unproven guys fighting for spots on the bottom pair. Having said that, if management were to trade either one of those guys, it would not be to gift a spot, but to address another team need and gain assets as they would have determined that whoever would move into the starting 6 would be ready.

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On ‎7‎/‎13‎/‎2016 at 10:06 AM, J.R. said:

I agree, moving Edler or Tanev at this point would be silly. Though if all of Larsen, Tryamkin and Pedan make serious strides this season, the TDL could be a different story. We shall see.

 

Even Sbisa, I think they'll wait to see how the first ~month or two are looking before they make a serious effort to move (if at all). Though I can't imagine he'll be too happy if he's press box bound more often than not.

 

As for Larsen, I'd say 6th spot is his to lose in camp. They want a guy to play on the PP regularly and he's penciled in there with a pretty dark pencil IMO, if not quite pen.

 

The 5th spot will be Sbisa or Tryamkin IMO. (though they'll likely both see regular time with injuries and Try occasionally watching even if he nabs the 5th spot).

 

But regardless, longer term (later this year/next summer), SOMEONE is going to need to be moved out and Try has far more upside than Sbisa long term.

Camp and pre-season otta be good! I expect Sbisa to start strong. Tryamkin and Larson are big ?. I suspect Sbisa to be #5 and the other two to alternate pending an injury. No point in rushing Joulevi or Stecher.

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18 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

Camp and pre-season otta be good! I expect Sbisa to start strong. Tryamkin and Larson are big ?. I suspect Sbisa to be #5 and the other two to alternate pending an injury. No point in rushing Joulevi or Stecher.

Yeah it's going to be good! Juolevi trying to show what he's got. Subban and Stetcher trying to nab Larsen's likely PP/6th spot. Sbisa vs Tryamkin for # 5, Gudbranson coming in and completely revamping our top 4 and giving Hutton room to blossom. Edler and Tanev with a bit of weight off their shoulders....

 

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1 hour ago, Boudrias said:

Camp and pre-season otta be good! I expect Sbisa to start strong. Tryamkin and Larson are big ?. I suspect Sbisa to be #5 and the other two to alternate pending an injury. No point in rushing Joulevi or Stecher.

If Sbisa only played within his skill set rather than try and do too much he's be better for it IMO

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I just hope if it is going to be Tryamkin and Larsen swapping in and out for the 6th spot, that Nikita understands he'll get his games and better development than heading back to Russia.  Larsen too for that matter.  Please be patient big man!

 

... Cant wait to see stecher at camp. :) 

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2 hours ago, Fred65 said:

If Sbisa only played within his skill set rather than try and do too much he's be better for it IMO

I think you're probably right here. He does much better playing a simpler game. And when he stays more "contained" in his role, his skillset actually has a chance to really shine through.

 

Sbisa tends to get the "all the tools and no toolbox" criticism thrown at him, and in some respects this is fair. He has the size, skating, and god-given talent to be a top level guy. But he seems to lack the decision making and "hockey IQ" to play to the full potential of his natural ability. We can still hope for improvement but he's approaching the age where what you see is what you get.

 

But when he's supported well, both in his paring and in the D order as a whole, he's able to be a very good #5, and one who has more natural talent than the average guy playing in that role. 

 

He's also extremely successul in gaining possession in the defensive zone. As in puck retrieval, stripping the puck from opponents, using his body to limit time and space, and forcing things to the outside. This is why he really shines as a PKer.

 

And when Sbisa has a partner with good vision and hockey IQ, and one who can be very dynamic on the breakout, he can be a very complimentay player and actually provide a solid defensive anchor to what can be a highly successful pairing.

 

Here's an HFBoards user who speaks very well to Sbisa's strengths:

 

Quote

It's tied into something that Sbisa actually does do quite well. Better than most of our other blueliners really. Puck retrieval. It's not a sexy thing, but it's important. He doesn't move it as well or as consistently as others once he does have it on his stick...but that's kind of a separate issue, and where simplifying his game when he does gain possession can make him an overall more useful player. Something they're clearing working on. But when Sbisa goes back for a puck, he doesn't often bail out like several of our guys consistently do, he doesn't often get out-muscled or physically pushed off, or out-raced. He tends to retrieve the puck, or at least scramble it on the wall.  

 


But that stuff is hardly ever mentioned because "herp derp Pizza overpaid rabble rabble". You'd think judging from most of the conversation about Sbisa that he's incapable of doing anythingwell...which isn't true.

 

 

This is where you see Sbisa really shine. And it might just be a role where he could pair extremely well with Larsen.

 

Another thing about Sbisa is that he tends to look better with more minutes. When he plays low minutes, his occasional gaffes tend to overly taint what was otherwise solid defensive play. But when he's been given a bigger role in the past (due to injuries), the higher minutes and higher quality on-ice teammates have often resulted in some strong games for Sbisa. Especially when he's had good support from his partner and from the 5 man on-ice unit. 

 

While I'm not quite sure Sbisa (on his current contract) fits this D order well longterm, I do think that the addition of Larsen provides a possibility where he could really settle in to a pairing where he could play to his strengths and have the support of a player (Larsen) who excels in transition and whose strengths shine after his team gains possession (and who struggles against opposition possession--a game state where Sbisa can really help him). Basically Sbisa and Larsen, on paper at least, should compliment each other very well.

 

One more thing about Sbisa (and I'll likely take some heat from the Benning "true believers" for saying this): I don't think his contract or Benning's repeated "top-4" comments did him any favours.

 

Certainly Sbisa isn't being hurt by having all that money or enjoying his GMs confidence. However, I think that the salary and expectations make it difficult for him to be fully appreciated as a very good #5 defenseman. I still believe that the best course this team could have taken, when Sbisa's previous contract was expiring, would have been to file for "cut down" arbitration (seeking a 15% reduction in his $2.9 million final year salary).

 

The Canucks likely would have been able to win the arbitration award and get Sbisa under contact at $2.465 million. And even better would have been to use the threat of arbitration as the "stick" and then offer the "carrot" of a 2-3 year extension at somewhere around $2.5-2.75 million AAV (this type of carrot/stick approach tends to work because both sides usually prefer to avoid the adversarial process of arbitration).

 

If Sbisa was on that kind of a deal, I don't think he'd take nearly as much heat. And he'd fit much better into longterm plans for the roster (with Edler, Tanev, Hutton, and Gudbranson as a set top-4). It's a ship long since sailed but I still wish we'd gone a different direction in the negotiations.

 

Anyway, sorry for the "essay" on Sbisa in the Stecher thread. The quoted post just prompted a few thoughts that I felt might be worth sharing. :) 

Edited by SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME
Minor additions and fixed typos
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5 hours ago, Fred65 said:

If Sbisa only played within his skill set rather than try and do too much he's be better for it IMO

The Canuck backend was a gong show at times last year. When your scrambling to recover the puck or you have two forecheckers on you with no support it looks bad. Injuries forced Sbisa and Hutton into top pairing TOI for many games.

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On July 15, 2016 at 3:49 PM, Boudrias said:

The Canuck backend was a gong show at times last year. When your scrambling to recover the puck or you have two forecheckers on you with no support it looks bad. Injuries forced Sbisa and Hutton into top pairing TOI for many games.

I'd also add that Sbisa has been the victim of some terrible forward support, especially from his wingers. Many of the "pizzas" he's been vilified for have actually been the fault of forwards being out of position or missing assignments. Some of this probably falls on coaching as well (in terms of breakout systems). Not excusing Sbisa for all his gaffes, but there have been many instances when his teammates' poor play has made Sbisa look far worse than he actually is.

 

EDIT: I kind of wish we could move these posts over to a Sbisa thread because there's a good topic for discussion here but it's happening in a place where we're supposed to be talking about Stecher (and I'm probably the most guilty of going OT in this thread).

Edited by SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME
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27 minutes ago, tyhee said:

If I can tell correctly this was written about Philip Larsen.

 

If it is about Larsen, it's wrong, at least about Edmonton not qualifying him.  If Edmonton didn't qualify him, they'd have lost his rights and wouldn't have had anything to trade to the Canucks for that conditional draft pick the Canucks gave the Oilers for his rights.

 

Edmonton DID qualify him.  He chose not to sign with them and signed to play in the KHL.

 

A news release announcing the qualifying offer at the time is still online at http://oilers.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=724663.  Other news reports from later times that refer to the Oilers having made the qualifying offer can be seen at

 

http://edmontonjournal.com/sports/hockey/nhl/cult-of-hockey/cult-of-hockey-should-the-oilers-bring-back-philip-larsen

"A couple of years back, the Edmonton Oilers sent qualifying offers to a pair of restricted free agents that they knew would spend the next year in Europe. One of those players was defenceman Philip Larsen ..."

 

A news article from the time of the Oilers-Canucks Larsen trade at

http://edmontonjournal.com/sports/hockey/nhl/cult-of-hockey/cult-of-hockey-oilers-canucks-both-make-decent-bets-with-philip-larsen-trade

 

says "This is a trade that goes back to 2014, when then-Oilers general manager Craig MacTavish gave the KHL-bound Larsen a qualifying offer, thereby allowing Edmonton to retain his rights. It didn’t cost Edmonton anything, and Larsen was just 24 years old at the time so there was a realistic chance that he would continue to improve and perhaps eventually return to the NHL. "

 

 

Well there you go.  Lol.  

The article I read on the oilers page bashed his play big time, then said they didn't qualify him.    Maybe it meant to say didn't sign his qualifying offer.   

Either way, he was hot garbage and couldn't cut it in the NHL at the time. 

 

I hope he fixed the shortcomings tho.  

Id be stoked to finally see a true offensive dman on our team.  It's been a long time. 

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Hot garbage is a bit of a stretch. One dimensional is more to the point, but the Oilers wanted him back because what he does bring he does so at a reasonable level.

 

Anyway, Stecher will compete for that same spot in camp and it'll be up to them (and Subban who will want to show for that role) to try and earn it. Larsen has a leg up since the other two don't require waivers, but we'll see how it goes.

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On 7/17/2016 at 0:55 PM, drummerboy said:

Well there you go.  Lol.  

The article I read on the oilers page bashed his play big time, then said they didn't qualify him.    Maybe it meant to say didn't sign his qualifying offer.   

Either way, he was hot garbage and couldn't cut it in the NHL at the time. 

 

I hope he fixed the shortcomings tho.  

Id be stoked to finally see a true offensive dman on our team.  It's been a long time. 

He looked pretty good in Dallas as a young player.

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On July 17, 2016 at 11:55 AM, drummerboy said:

Well there you go.  Lol.  

The article I read on the oilers page bashed his play big time, then said they didn't qualify him.    Maybe it meant to say didn't sign his qualifying offer.   

Either way, he was hot garbage and couldn't cut it in the NHL at the time. 

 

I hope he fixed the shortcomings tho.  

Id be stoked to finally see a true offensive dman on our team.  It's been a long time. 

The article you read on the Oilers page was obviously poorly researched and factually incorrect. Any opinion based on that is likely to be equally flawed. He couldn't cut it in the gong show that was Edmonton. Like Baer couldn't cut it in Calgary. That is absolutely not the same as not being able to cut it in the NHL. Nor does it mean that he was hot garbage.

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On 7/17/2016 at 11:55 AM, drummerboy said:

Well there you go.  Lol.  

The article I read on the oilers page bashed his play big time, then said they didn't qualify him.    Maybe it meant to say didn't sign his qualifying offer.   

Either way, he was hot garbage and couldn't cut it in the NHL at the time. 

 

I hope he fixed the shortcomings tho.  

Id be stoked to finally see a true offensive dman on our team.  It's been a long time. 

Can we maybe look and see what he provides rather than coming up with conclusions about him being "hot garbage?"

 

I know it's summer and all and everyone's anxious for the next season, but that's no excuse to think things before even seeing them play. This is hockey, not pin-the-tail-on-the-player-that-we-have-no-clue-about.......

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52 minutes ago, Salmonberries said:

Little in the way of Troy Stecher talk here lately, I see.

 

Shame, that.

It's a great discussion, however it should be in the Lucaa Sbisa talk. Is it possible to move replies to another topic?

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