Horvat vs. Sutter

[AntiTank]

Now Mr. Willie D likes rolling his four lines, so I guess in his mind every line must be defensively responsible and be a scoring threat at all times. Looking back at the points both guys put up this year, it makes me wonder why WD emphasizes Horvat's defensive game so much. It almost seems like he wants to use Sutter like a utility guy (Wing/Centre, PK/PP, can play on any line) and Horvat as the go-to PK/defensive centre. (Correct me if I'm wrong) Horvat did make the NHL as a solid two-way guy, but to me it seems he can be more than that. I guess there wasn't much choice this year (Sutter being injured etc.) but do you think Horvat will do his share of defensive starts next year with Sutter healthy?

 

To expand, going back to the four lines thing, WD does not necessarily do match-ups, but if there was a go-to shutdown centre for the Canucks, who would you pick? Horvat or Sutter? 

 

I'm not very familiar with advanced stats (and Horvat's sample size wouldn't be that large) but it would be helpful if some of you guys could show me this stuff!

[thejazz97]

17 minutes ago, AntiTank said:

do you think Horvat will do his share of defensive starts next year with Sutter healthy?

Definitely. If there's one guy who's proved he can get the puck out of the zone, it's Horvat. Not only that, but that's how most of his points come as well.

[Toews]

I expect Sutter to handle the hardest minutes going forward. Horvat was thrown into the fire this season and will need to have his QOC scaled back going forward. He won't be sheltered and still be asked to carry some of the burdens but not nearly as much as this year.

 

Horvat also has considerably higher offensive upside and having a guy like Sutter can help him focus on that part of his game. 

 

I have been critical of a lot moves JB has made but the move for Sutter was something I always supported and still do now.

[Googlie]

The book on Sutter was largely written in Pittsburgh where he played as 3rd line center behind Crosby and Malkin,  Big shut down guy, can skate, good speed, good shot, not a particularly great puck distributor. (always had more goals than assists). Sounds like a prototypical shut-down center who can fit on the power-play or fill in as a winger ....... exactly as WD has been using him.

 

Bo has many of the same attributes, but better assists / goals ratio, suggesting that he is a better puck-distributor. (also has much better +/- stats with London Knights than Sutter's with the Red Deer Rebels, suggesting a better offensive pedigree),

 

I see Bo as our 2nd line center, with Bae on the left wing and a retriever on the right (to save Bo some of the heavy lifting in the corners) such as Etem or Hansen, Virt, maybe, (but certainly not Vrby!!) leaving Sutter as the shut-down guy perhaps with Gaunce and Grenier - or Burr, if retained, as his wingers.

 

Neither are suited for the 4th line "energy guy" role, IMO

[MaxVerstappen33]

People rag on Sutters point totals. But unfortunately we have to build a team to suit the playoffs. Its not going to be a fun regular season team to watch simply because the whistles get put away and the yahoo's run the show in the playoffs.

 

Sutter will earn his keep in the post season. So will Horvat. But really, I'd rather watch Bonino and Nichushkin for 82 games

[MJDDawg]

It's not an issue. Only Horvat's second year in the league and he's learning the defensive side of the game as most rookies usually have to. He has shown his flashes of offense and this part of his game will get better and better with time. Bo's top end is probably second line center, but depending on how things turn out at the draft, he could be our third line center for the next couple of years, with lots of PK and PP responsibility.

 

Having Sutter to help him along so the pressure will not be all on him is what the team intended all along, so it's all good.

[DownUndaCanuck]

I'd rather see Horvat with more offensive opportunities such as PP while Sutter plays the majority of our PK minutes.

 

Ideally both centers get 15 minutes a game, depending on the game (more PPs compared to PKs), we'll have an evening out of Sutter and Horvat's minutes over the course of the season but Horvat SUCKED on the penalty kill last season and really needs to learn to play better defensively before we make him our #1 PK center. Obviously Sutter is better when healthy and if we use these guys properly, we'll have nice even minutes and a much better special teams.

 

We're going to have to try and get Henrik's minutes down too now that he's getting injured and older. Make them easier, mainly 1st unit PP, no PK time whatsoever)

 

Henrik Sedin (17 minutes a night)

Horvat (15 minutes)

Sutter (15 minutes)

Granlund (13 minutes)

 

Granlund at 13 minutes depends on how good he gets over the next year, but if anyone needs more minutes make it Horvat - he's really growing lately. Give Henrik #1PP time, Horvat #2 PP time, Sutter #1 PK time, Granlund #2 PK time, Horvat #3 PK time.

[Odd.]

If Sutter hadn't been injured all season long, I think Horvat would probably have had less than 40 pts. The fact that Horvat jumped in big to fill in a veteran presence while pretty much excelling it as a sophomore in the NHL, that's pretty 'clutch'. 

 

And Sutter isn't injury prone, he has multiple 82 game seasons, he was just unlucky this year. I think Horvat will focus more on offense next season. He's progressed quite well. Maybe shoot for 100 pts in his career, as he's at 65. He'll need 35 pts to get 100 in his career, so I think those are solid expectations. 

 

As for Sutter, I expect him to excel at all areas. Chipping in on offense, shutting down other opponents, and the neat thing is is that he can fit in any parts of the line-up. He can play anywhere, just like Hansen. If Sutter can get 35 pts playing on a shutdown role, absolutely great.

 

As for the question, I'd pick Sutter as the shutdown guy because he has more experience than a 21 year old. However, whose to say Horvat can't do that job after this season though? 

[87Crosby]

What if they play on the same line?

[AntiTank]

 

14 minutes ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

I'd rather see Horvat with more offensive opportunities such as PP while Sutter plays the majority of our PK minutes.

 

Ideally both centers get 15 minutes a game, depending on the game (more PPs compared to PKs), we'll have an evening out of Sutter and Horvat's minutes over the course of the season but Horvat SUCKED on the penalty kill last season and really needs to learn to play better defensively before we make him our #1 PK center. Obviously Sutter is better when healthy and if we use these guys properly, we'll have nice even minutes and a much better special teams.

 

We're going to have to try and get Henrik's minutes down too now that he's getting injured and older. Make them easier, mainly 1st unit PP, no PK time whatsoever)

 

Henrik Sedin (17 minutes a night)

Horvat (15 minutes)

Sutter (15 minutes)

Granlund (13 minutes)

 

Granlund at 13 minutes depends on how good he gets over the next year, but if anyone needs more minutes make it Horvat - he's really growing lately. Give Henrik #1PP time, Horvat #2 PP time, Sutter #1 PK time, Granlund #2 PK time, Horvat #3 PK time.

You would take Granlund over Gaunce?

 

I guess we did give up Shink for him...

[Crabcakes]

Long term, I still see Sutter as the shutdown/match up centre.  In the meantime, he has the ability to be a number 2.  This will allow sheltered minutes for developing players.  That was the plan going into last season and I see no reason why it won't continue in the short term.

 

Horvat was asked to do more than he was ready for when Sutter was injured.  He was in the running for the green jacket as league leader in minus stats.  However most of these minuses came early in the year.  Horvat certainly developed as the season went on and after new years, he and Baertschi showed chemistry and they both produced well.  Horvat failed to capture the green jacket on a late season surge.

 

A healthy Sutter will also see better face off stats for the rest of the team because he good and is right handed.  Horvat and Sedin are left.  Team puck possession should improve.  Also, Sutter will be the go to centre on the PK which will give Horvat more opportunity 5 on 5 and on the PP.

[jstewboy]

1 hour ago, LolClarkson said:

People rag on Sutters point totals. But unfortunately we have to build a team to suit the playoffs. Its not going to be a fun regular season team to watch simply because the whistles get put away and the yahoo's run the show in the playoffs.

 

Sutter will earn his keep in the post season. So will Horvat. But really, I'd rather watch Bonino and Nichushkin for 82 games

So you would rather have two players who you *think* are more exciting to watch in the regular season than guys that will win in the playoffs?

 

 

Bonino is soft and Nichushkin only shows up half the time. Hard to explain that to someone who is always thinking of "what could have been" though. 

[theminister]

47 minutes ago, Odd. said:

If Sutter hadn't been injured all season long, I think Horvat would probably have had less than 40 pts. The fact that Horvat jumped in big to fill in a veteran presence while pretty much excelling it as a sophomore in the NHL, that's pretty 'clutch'. 

 

And Sutter isn't injury prone, he has multiple 82 game seasons, he was just unlucky this year. I think Horvat will focus more on offense next season. He's progressed quite well. Maybe shoot for 100 pts in his career, as he's at 65. He'll need 35 pts to get 100 in his career, so I think those are solid expectations. 

 

As for Sutter, I expect him to excel at all areas. Chipping in on offense, shutting down other opponents, and the neat thing is is that he can fit in any parts of the line-up. He can play anywhere, just like Hansen. If Sutter can get 35 pts playing on a shutdown role, absolutely great.

 

As for the question, I'd pick Sutter as the shutdown guy because he has more experience than a 21 year old. However, whose to say Horvat can't do that job after this season though? 

Actually, I see it the other way. I think he might have had more. 

 

Because match-ups become a domino effect throughout a lineup when guys get hurt, the situational changes gave Bo less opportunity to be in an offensive role, not more. He had to spend more of his ice time, which I agree was likely increased, attempting to drive possession against the top two lines of the other teams rather than get favourable match ups against the bottom 6. The increased icetime may also not have been to his advantage as he would get more fatigued during the course of a night with less recovery time on the bench leading to less effective minutes. 

 

When both Sutter and Hank were out, and Vey became our de facto 1C for a stretch, it forced Bo into situations that, if his development could be mapped out as a second year player, we probably wouldn't want him to need to face until he was further along. I think he acquitted himself well enough, and he might reap the benefits in coming years for the learning lesson, but his line was over matched at many times and the play was hard to get back in the offensive zone. This meant he was spending more of his season in the defensive zone to neutral zone ice, with the puck not on his stick. 

 

With a fully healthy lineup next season, knock on wood, Bo will get more opportunities to push the play from the neutral zone into the offensive zone versus lesser QOC and handle the puck more often. We've seen that when he gets an opening to carry the puck that he can create time and space, find seams, and drive to the danger areas seemingly at will on occasion. What we hope to give him is more occasion to do so and a healthy Sutter allows that possiblity. The fact of getting the RH/LH draws balanced will also have a great affect on the deployment. 

 

If anything, is what I'm saying, it isn't a 'vs' situation in any shape or form. It will be complimentary and they could both set career point total benchmarks next year. One doesn't steal production from each other over competing for icetime. They will share the burden and the rewards, and the whole team will produce more goals.

 

That's the dynamics of being a deeper team versus a shallow team. 

 

 

[kloubek]

I agree with all that has been said here.  Horvat is a far more dynamic player, and I see him heading up our 2nd line in the future; possibly as early as this coming season.  If so, that would drop Sutter to the 3rd line center role, unless Willie decides to put him on the wing again, in which case he'd be our 2nd line winger.  (And that would largely depend on what draft pick we get and how much our young wingers improve in the offseason I imagine). 

 

I do think Sutter is our best option to take PK draws though.  So even if he fell to a 3rd center on a regular basis, he'd still get good minutes when you add in PK responsibilities.

[ice orca]

1 hour ago, LolClarkson said:

People rag on Sutters point totals. But unfortunately we have to build a team to suit the playoffs. Its not going to be a fun regular season team to watch simply because the whistles get put away and the yahoo's run the show in the playoffs.

 

Sutter will earn his keep in the post season. So will Horvat. But really, I'd rather watch Bonino and Nichushkin for 82 games

I like Bones but Nichushkin is a lazy player, has to have the perfect line mates and situations to perform. The perfect example of a high maintenance player. Horvat all the way for me.

[Down by the River]

I want Sutter to handle the heavy matchups (Kopitar, Getzlaf, Benn), but I don't want Bo to be completely sheltered either, he needs to experience what it takes to play hard minutes against those guys every night. You can work hard off the ice, but until you truly experience a game situation, it is tough to know what to work on.

 

He also struggled on the PK last year. Give him an opportunity to watch some tape over the summer, learn from his mistakes, and get to redeem himself in the Fall. 

[smokes]

I don't care if it is line 2 or line 3. But I would love to see a Burrows-Sutter-Hansen line.

[Bob Long]

2 hours ago, Googlie said:

The book on Sutter was largely written in Pittsburgh where he played as 3rd line center behind Crosby and Malkin,  Big shut down guy, can skate, good speed, good shot, not a particularly great puck distributor. (always had more goals than assists). Sounds like a prototypical shut-down center who can fit on the power-play or fill in as a winger ....... exactly as WD has been using him.

 

Bo has many of the same attributes, but better assists / goals ratio, suggesting that he is a better puck-distributor. (also has much better +/- stats with London Knights than Sutter's with the Red Deer Rebels, suggesting a better offensive pedigree),

 

I see Bo as our 2nd line center, with Bae on the left wing and a retriever on the right (to save Bo some of the heavy lifting in the corners) such as Etem or Hansen, Virt, maybe, (but certainly not Vrby!!) leaving Sutter as the shut-down guy perhaps with Gaunce and Grenier - or Burr, if retained, as his wingers.

 

Neither are suited for the 4th line "energy guy" role, IMO

This is exactly right imo. If Bo is back on the 2nd line with Baertschi there's a line that will be more of an offensive threat that's good defensively too, and then Sutter with Hanson is a shut down line that can score. With these two guys in the 2C/3C we're going to be a lot better next year if everyone can stay healthy. 

 

Its the top line that needs help.... hopefully through the draft but maybe a UFA.

[Qwags]

I kinda hope Horvat starts on the third line next season, as opposed to being thrown into the fire. That being said, he did very well for what he was given.

[Bob Long]

49 minutes ago, theminister said:

With a fully healthy lineup next season, knock on wood, Bo will get more opportunities to push the play from the neutral zone into the offensive zone versus lesser QOC and handle the puck more often. We've seen that when he gets an opening to carry the puck that he can create time and space, find seams, and drive to the danger areas seemingly at will on occasion. What we hope to give him is more occasion to do so and a healthy Sutter allows that possiblity. The fact of getting the RH/LH draws balanced will also have a great affect on the deployment. 

 

People got a bit hung up on the +/- thing with Bo this year, but I think he ended up being something like a -6 from the all star break on, which is a hell of an improvement from -24 before that point, so he did become much better defensively even with some line mates that weren't carrying their weight and in games where the team was struggling to care. If he's in a role more like you describe next year, then the combo of Sutter and Horvat is going to be really complimentary and effective.