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[Proposal] Drouin to Vancouver


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5 hours ago, BI3KSA- said:

Yep, 2 years into his pro career and he only has a 32 pt rookie season and, so far, 5 pts in 6 games in his first playoff series. Thats a wrap folks, hes a bust! He hasnt made a Stanley cup contender in his first 2 yrs as a pro (his first yr they made the finals), hes worth a late first at best now. Trade Ballard for him, wait, never mind his stock is falling through the floor, just wait a little while and we might be able to pick him up for a Rogers Arena hot dog

CDCs patience man, always good for a laugh

CDC - always good for some stupid strawman 'arguments'.

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5 hours ago, BI3KSA- said:

Yep, 2 years into his pro career and he only has a 32 pt rookie season and, so far, 5 pts in 6 games in his first playoff series. Thats a wrap folks, hes a bust! He hasnt made a Stanley cup contender in his first 2 yrs as a pro (his first yr they made the finals), hes worth a late first at best now. Trade Ballard for him, wait, never mind his stock is falling through the floor, just wait a little while and we might be able to pick him up for a Rogers Arena hot dog

CDCs patience man, always good for a laugh

His comparison is VERY apt...Baertschi and Granlund had both produced more than Drouin has at this point in their pro careers look what their trade value was

 

Trades based on draft pedigree are about as stupid as trades based off of potential.

 

As of right now people are claiming Drouin's value based off of his draft pedigree, because if they were basing it off of his career numbers, that 5th or 6th overall pick would be worth Drouin plus a first without question no matter how you want to spin it.

 

3 years ish of playing in the NHL for all 3 players

 

Granlund:  102 games 31 points.  Shinkaruk trade value

 

Baertschi:  66 games 30 points 2nd round pick

 

Drouin:  91 games 42 points.....do the math

 

Again basing it off of his former draft position is a poor argument. 

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3 hours ago, oldnews said:

Drouin is 21.  +3 draft year.  So no, that's not what I mean.  You can mean that if you're looking for weak analogies.

Drouin is one year older than Jake, you make it sound like he is lot older, he was from the draft year before Jake. So comparing Jake (#6 overall) to Drouin (#3 the year before) is a weak analogy? You mean that these are totaly different situations?

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McCann and our 1st, for Tampa's 1st, 2nd, and 5th rounders and Drouin, on provision it's a No. 6 pick. 

 

We downgrade our pick, but it's offset by a more NHL ready, higher ceiling forward, we pick up two extra picks.

 

Tampa gets a slightly taller and more lanky forward, but with less baggage and top 6 pick. And a kid that has put up 9 goals, 9 assists in his first season. 

 

We get a second rounder and our pick back from the Kassian trade. And a lower pick but hopefully we can find a rock solid d-man. 

We also get an impact forward who can help us next year in the top six right away. 

 

Hockey trade? 

 

 

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4 hours ago, oldnews said:

CDC - always good for some stupid strawman 'arguments'.

Pretty ironic considering how many you had in your comments towards me, while yours were actually argumentative and mine were merely jokes. 

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5 hours ago, Warhippy said:

His comparison is VERY apt...Baertschi and Granlund had both produced more than Drouin has at this point in their pro careers look what their trade value was

 

Trades based on draft pedigree are about as stupid as trades based off of potential.

 

As of right now people are claiming Drouin's value based off of his draft pedigree, because if they were basing it off of his career numbers, that 5th or 6th overall pick would be worth Drouin plus a first without question no matter how you want to spin it.

 

3 years ish of playing in the NHL for all 3 players

 

Granlund:  102 games 31 points.  Shinkaruk trade value

 

Baertschi:  66 games 30 points 2nd round pick

 

Drouin:  91 games 42 points.....do the math

 

Again basing it off of his former draft position is a poor argument. 

The comparison is absolutely awful. Sven was much, much closer to bust territory because of age and other factors than Drouin is. 

Yes, players get traded and valued based off of their potential. There is talent and potential analysis in prospects, and obvious subsequent risk, but thats part of the game. The entire reason players are drafted 3rd overall is because of what they might become. There is no way Drouin, after 2 seasons as a pro, is past the point of his potential being realized and thus his value sliding that much. Drouin is an elite prospect, same as when he was drafted, with a very high ceiling and very high pedigree, and that comes with value, there is absolutely nothing "stupid" about that. Go ask Benning if talent and potential evaluation is stupid. Its a huge part of hockey management. 

You arent basing value so much on where he was drafted, you are basing it off of why he was drafted there though, which is the whole, you know, elite prospect, with an elite skill set and elite talents in various abilities, thing.

Drouin had a stronger rookie season than Horvat (better than Barkov, Lindholm and the similar to Monahans) then came into his sophomore season slumping (just like Horvat), got 10 pts in 21 games on a 4th line (which he somehow produced 32 pts on his rookie season too), got sent down instead of being allowed to play through it like Horvat did, and has now come back and scored 5 pts in 6 playoff games. Its fascinates me that you guys think that a scenario like that takes a very elite prospect down to a friggen late 1st rounder. Would you guys have traded Horvat for a late first rounder during his slump in the first half of his sophomore season? Or was he still more valuable because his potential and pedigree? Cause to that point he had less impressive stats than Drouin did.

I wish more GMs thought like you fellows do when it comes to their slumping, elite prospects, because if they were all this closed minded and short sighted, the Canucks would have a much fuller cupboard, especially with Bennings eye for talent. 

 

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13 minutes ago, BI3KSA- said:

The comparison is absolutely awful. Sven was much, much closer to bust territory because of age and other factors than Drouin is. 

Yes, players get traded and valued based off of their potential. There is talent and potential analysis in prospects, and obvious subsequent risk, but thats part of the game There is no way Drouin, after 2 seasons as a pro, is past the point of his potential being realized and thus his value sliding that much. Drouin is an elite prospect, same as when he was drafted, with a very high ceiling and very high pedigree, and that comes with value, there is absolutely nothing "stupid" about that. Go ask Benning if talent and potential evaluation is stupid. Its a huge part of hockey management. 

You arent basing value so much on where he was drafted, you are basing it off of why he was drafted there though, which is the whole, you know, elite prospect, with an elite skill set and elite talents in various abilities, thing.

Drouin had a stronger rookie season than Horvat (better than Barkov, Lindholm and the similar to Monahans) then came into his sophomore season slumping (just like Horvat), got 10 pts in 21 games on a 4th line (which he somehow produced 32 pts on his rookie season too), got sent down instead of being allowed to play through it like Horvat did, and has now come back and scored 5 pts in 6 playoff games. Its fascinates me that you guys think that a scenario like that takes a very elite prospect down to a friggen late 1st rounder. Would you guys have traded Horvat for a late first rounder during his slump in the first half of his sophomore season? Or was he still more valuable because his potential and pedigree? Cause to that point he had less impressive stats than Drouin did.

I wish more GMs thought like you fellows do when it comes to their slumping, elite prospects, because if they were all this closed minded and short sighted, the Canucks would have a much fuller cupboard, especially with Bennings eye for talent. 

 

LMAO

 

Montoya, Filatov, Stefan, Hickey, barker, Dipietro, Helenius, Picard, Tukonen, Hamil, Beach, Glennie, White the list goes on and on and on and on.

 

Potential, lemme tell you what potential a trade proposal and 3 beer get you.  

 

Ridiculed.  

 

For ALL that potential, there is also, less than .5 ppg with sheltered minutes and zone starts, multiple issues with coach/management, inabilities to meet imposed curfews and practices and of course let's not forget a VERY public demand or request for a trade.

 

Keeping in mind I am not saying Drouins potential is stupid, only that your argument is/was

 

Keeping in mind that Drouin also had FAR more sheltered minutes and better line mates than Horvat, Barkov, Lindholm and was not expected to be a saviour like Monahan (who absolutely ran with it)

 

You keep using Horvat as a bench mark yet not once consider positional need or organizational need.  We NEEDED Horvat for PR and team reasons, Drouin wasn't expected nor needed to produce.  He just really didn't.  There is no comparison or similarity between the two except the year they got drafted in

 

You're literally saying he's worth so much more than he is, you can ask for a BMW for a miata, but nobody is going to pay it end of argument.

 

Simply stated, just because he was drafted at 3rd overall does not mean he is worth a 3rd overall let alone currently a top 6 pick.

 

And if you need further analysis I again suggest you look at Cam Barker who also was a 3rd overall and in 81 games or the same amount of season Drouin has played had 26 points or .31 ppg and in his next season was a 40 point in 68 game D man...where is he now again?  how did we come about having him on the Canucks, oh yes.  as an unwanted player who is now at home in Bratislava for his 2nd season.

 

Where again?

 

 

Again, potential nets you squat, this is not a try league, this is a get it done league.

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25 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

LMAO

 

Montoya, Filatov, Stefan, Hickey, barker, Dipietro, Helenius, Picard, Tukonen, Hamil, Beach, Glennie, White the list goes on and on and on and on.

 

Potential, lemme tell you what potential a trade proposal and 3 beer get you.  

 

Ridiculed.  

 

For ALL that potential, there is also, less than .5 ppg with sheltered minutes and zone starts, multiple issues with coach/management, inabilities to meet imposed curfews and practices and of course let's not forget a VERY public demand or request for a trade.

 

Keeping in mind I am not saying Drouins potential is stupid, only that your argument is/was

 

Keeping in mind that Drouin also had FAR more sheltered minutes and better line mates than Horvat, Barkov, Lindholm and was not expected to be a saviour like Monahan (who absolutely ran with it)

 

You keep using Horvat as a bench mark yet not once consider positional need or organizational need.  We NEEDED Horvat for PR and team reasons, Drouin wasn't expected nor needed to produce.  He just really didn't.  There is no comparison or similarity between the two except the year they got drafted in

 

You're literally saying he's worth so much more than he is, you can ask for a BMW for a miata, but nobody is going to pay it end of argument.

 

Simply stated, just because he was drafted at 3rd overall does not mean he is worth a 3rd overall let alone currently a top 6 pick.

 

And if you need further analysis I again suggest you look at Cam Barker who also was a 3rd overall and in 81 games or the same amount of season Drouin has played had 26 points or .31 ppg and in his next season was a 40 point in 68 game D man...where is he now again?  how did we come about having him on the Canucks, oh yes.  as an unwanted player who is now at home in Bratislava for his 2nd season.

 

Where again?

 

 

Again, potential nets you squat, this is not a try league, this is a get it done league.

The Hippy is bang on.  I enjoy all your posts, but this one is at the top.  Really good job.  

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6 hours ago, Warhippy said:

LMAO

 

Montoya, Filatov, Stefan, Hickey, barker, Dipietro, Helenius, Picard, Tukonen, Hamil, Beach, Glennie, White the list goes on and on and on and on.

 

Potential, lemme tell you what potential a trade proposal and 3 beer get you.  

 

Ridiculed.  

 

For ALL that potential, there is also, less than .5 ppg with sheltered minutes and zone starts, multiple issues with coach/management, inabilities to meet imposed curfews and practices and of course let's not forget a VERY public demand or request for a trade.

 

Keeping in mind I am not saying Drouins potential is stupid, only that your argument is/was

 

Keeping in mind that Drouin also had FAR more sheltered minutes and better line mates than Horvat, Barkov, Lindholm and was not expected to be a saviour like Monahan (who absolutely ran with it)

 

You keep using Horvat as a bench mark yet not once consider positional need or organizational need.  We NEEDED Horvat for PR and team reasons, Drouin wasn't expected nor needed to produce.  He just really didn't.  There is no comparison or similarity between the two except the year they got drafted in

 

You're literally saying he's worth so much more than he is, you can ask for a BMW for a miata, but nobody is going to pay it end of argument.

 

Simply stated, just because he was drafted at 3rd overall does not mean he is worth a 3rd overall let alone currently a top 6 pick.

 

And if you need further analysis I again suggest you look at Cam Barker who also was a 3rd overall and in 81 games or the same amount of season Drouin has played had 26 points or .31 ppg and in his next season was a 40 point in 68 game D man...where is he now again?  how did we come about having him on the Canucks, oh yes.  as an unwanted player who is now at home in Bratislava for his 2nd season.

 

Where again?

 

 

Again, potential nets you squat, this is not a try league, this is a get it done league.

Players are traded all the time because of potential and expectations as to what player they will become. We did not trade a 2nd for Sven because we really, really wanted a guy that couldnt stick in the NHL and had a career high of 11 pts in a season, we did it because we thought there was potential for him to become a top 6 forward for us. The entire trade was based off of what he could become, cause if he stayed as he was at the time of the trade he certainly was not worth a 2nd. This is one example, but GMs trade based off of potential all the time. The entire idea of trading draft picks is based off the potential of what the pick might become, for god sakes. I have no idea how you could possibly come to the logical conclusion you are stating, that there is no value in potential and that only fools deal in it, when its so obviously apparent there is and that all GMs do deal in it. 

Drouin didnt have better linemates than Barkov, Lindholm and certainly not Monahan. Monahan was nearly as sheltered as him zone start wise, had better linemates and higher time on ice, and scored 2 more points. Barkov had much higher TOI and better linemates and still scored quite a bit less points. Lindholm was even more sheltered with higher TOI than he had and still produced less. All when comparing rookie seasons. Regardless, none of this really matters, the point I was making is that he did relatively equal compared to his peers in his rookie season and then slumped in his sophomore year and was cut. Sophomore slumps are common.

Montoya, Filatov, Stefan, Hickey, barker, Dipietro, Helenius, Picard, Tukonen, Hamil, Beach, Glennie, White the list goes on and on and on and on.

Alright now do a quick list like this of elite players that had sophomore slumps. 

There isnt anything wrong with what Drouin has produced in his first 2 years. He had a good rookie showing followed by a slump in his sophomore year, got cut, by all accounts worked his way back (albeit, after some drama, as he felt he was being misused on the 4th line and thats why he wasnt producing, which to me, is quite understandable), earned his ice time, and while he did have clashes with coaches this year they are now singing his praise and talking about how proud they are of him. 
 

Quote

 

You're literally saying he's worth so much more than he is, you can ask for a BMW for a miata, but nobody is going to pay it end of argument.

 

Simply stated, just because he was drafted at 3rd overall does not mean he is worth a 3rd overall let alone currently a top 6 pick.

 

Thats not what I'm saying, and I've clarified this a few times already. I'll give it another go, when you draft someone they havent proven anything whatsoever at the NHL level, you pick them based off potential. There is no reason for Drouin to be considered a bust at his age, or because of his production thus far. So, because Drouins pedigree, skill set and potential is higher than likely anyone available at 6, I'd say his value is at or around that level. Pretty simple logic. 

Edit: Also it comes as absolutely no surprise at all to anyone with a brain that Drouin is being so successful thus far in the playoffs getting PP time and much higher minutes, with much better linemates, compared to how well he was doing with 4th liners and 4th line time. No surprise at all. 

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The whole league is based on potential. You couldnt ice a team without potential. From draft picks, to trades, to 2nd contracts, to UFA's, its mostly about potential.

You want a team that is full of proven stars? A team full of BMW's? You cant afford it in a cap world. You need cheaper players with potential.

How can you possibly say that picks 3-6 are worth more then him? You have no clue how they will play in the NHL... but they have potential. We are just saying that you can clearly see Drouins potential right now, on NHL ice, playoffs no less. Draft picks are playing among boys, not men.

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8 hours ago, BI3KSA- said:

Players are traded all the time because of potential and expectations as to what player they will become. We did not trade a 2nd for Sven because we really, really wanted a guy that couldnt stick in the NHL and had a career high of 11 pts in a season, we did it because we thought there was potential for him to become a top 6 forward for us. The entire trade was based off of what he could become, cause if he stayed as he was at the time of the trade he certainly was not worth a 2nd. This is one example, but GMs trade based off of potential all the time. The entire idea of trading draft picks is based off the potential of what the pick might become, for god sakes. I have no idea how you could possibly come to the logical conclusion you are stating, that there is no value in potential and that only fools deal in it, when its so obviously apparent there is and that all GMs do deal in it. 

Drouin didnt have better linemates than Barkov, Lindholm and certainly not Monahan. Monahan was nearly as sheltered as him zone start wise, had better linemates and higher time on ice, and scored 2 more points. Barkov had much higher TOI and better linemates and still scored quite a bit less points. Lindholm was even more sheltered with higher TOI than he had and still produced less. All when comparing rookie seasons. Regardless, none of this really matters, the point I was making is that he did relatively equal compared to his peers in his rookie season and then slumped in his sophomore year and was cut. Sophomore slumps are common.

Montoya, Filatov, Stefan, Hickey, barker, Dipietro, Helenius, Picard, Tukonen, Hamil, Beach, Glennie, White the list goes on and on and on and on.

Alright now do a quick list like this of elite players that had sophomore slumps. 

There isnt anything wrong with what Drouin has produced in his first 2 years. He had a good rookie showing followed by a slump in his sophomore year, got cut, by all accounts worked his way back (albeit, after some drama, as he felt he was being misused on the 4th line and thats why he wasnt producing, which to me, is quite understandable), earned his ice time, and while he did have clashes with coaches this year they are now singing his praise and talking about how proud they are of him. 
 

Thats not what I'm saying, and I've clarified this a few times already. I'll give it another go, when you draft someone they havent proven anything whatsoever at the NHL level, you pick them based off potential. There is no reason for Drouin to be considered a bust at his age, or because of his production thus far. So, because Drouins pedigree, skill set and potential is higher than likely anyone available at 6, I'd say his value is at or around that level. Pretty simple logic. 

Edit: Also it comes as absolutely no surprise at all to anyone with a brain that Drouin is being so successful thus far in the playoffs getting PP time and much higher minutes, with much better linemates, compared to how well he was doing with 4th liners and 4th line time. No surprise at all. 

Marty St.Louis and Brett Hull who were trade for nothing but had potential.

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3 hours ago, Wrecken said:

The whole league is based on potential. You couldnt ice a team without potential. From draft picks, to trades, to 2nd contracts, to UFA's, its mostly about potential.

You want a team that is full of proven stars? A team full of BMW's? You cant afford it in a cap world. You need cheaper players with potential.

How can you possibly say that picks 3-6 are worth more then him? You have no clue how they will play in the NHL... but they have potential. We are just saying that you can clearly see Drouins potential right now, on NHL ice, playoffs no less. Draft picks are playing among boys, not men.

So...top draft picks have potential.  But Drouin has potential so he's worth something because he's played a few mediocre seasons?

 

Trade you an Erat for him

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8 hours ago, Warhippy said:

So...top draft picks have potential.  But Drouin has potential so he's worth something because he's played a few mediocre seasons?

 

Trade you an Erat for him

You expect your 6th overall to be doing better then .5 ppg for the first few years? I sure am glad you arent my GM or coach. A #3 is pulling those numbers with 4th line minutes and linemates, and now having a hell of a playoff run at 1+ppg. Yah, sounds like a kid I wouldnt want on my team.

You keep your mystery pick at #6, I'll be over here with the Canadian kid that is proving he can play right now. Who knows what yours will turn into, I like the sure thing.

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I don't see Tampa doing this at all. The fans have fallen in love with Drouin, coaches coming out saying they never pulled the plug on him. Put it this way Jon Cooper has been having Drouin out there with average ice time of 17:39, that's 2 SECONDS less than Tyler Johnson. 

 

His hands are also magical and he has been piling up those assists. He's third in points in the playoffs for Tampa. Don't think there's a chance they trade him unless it's something insane coming back their way. 

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Drouin can dangle in the frickin playoffs, I do not know why so many haters on this guy. He played limited fourth line minutes and then requested a trade because of that. Then he shows up in the playoffs and is dangerous offensively with quite a stickhandling skillset. He is Tampa's 1st C of the future now that stammer is gone

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