[Discussion] stop worrying about 5th pick

[ChampStatus]

What the Canucks and everyone here needs to start worrying about is the fact that our Round 2-7 picks and what poor information our scouts are feeding Jim.

I know people are going to say we are getting better, yes we might be getting better.

 

Since 2005 our rounds 2-7/9 players have been arguably the worst picks in the NHL. Our scouts have failed time and time again finding talent in the depth draft. Only three players since 2005 have played a whole season in the NHL and one of them never suited up for the Canucks.

 

Mason Raymond 2005 2nd round

Kevin Connauton 2009 3ed round

Ben Hutton 2012 5th round

 

Honorable mention

Frankie Corrado 2011 5th round.

 

As well as Ben Hutton played this year he still has a lot to prove to be a stand out d-man. Kevin Connauton never played for the Canucks, we flipped him and a second for a bust rental player. Mason Raymond is the best player on this list. H.M. Frankie Corrado for being a bubble D-Man floating form AHL-NHL hopefully he can stick in Toronto.

 

Some lights at the end of the tunnel may or may not be Nikita Tryamkin, Thatcher Demko, and Jordan Subban?.

 

Everyone says well Edmonton can't Draft in the 2-7th round but in comparison  players the have played a full season they drafted since 2005.

 

Chris VandeVelde 2005 5th Round

Taylor Chorney 2005 2nd Round

Theo Peckham 2006 3ed Round (No longer plays in the league) 160 Games!

Jeff Petry 2006 2nd Round

Anton Lander 2009 2nd Round

Brandon Davidson 2010 6th Round

Martin Marincin 2010 2nd Round

Tobias Rieder 2011 4th Round

 

HM

Linus Omark 2007 4th Round

Erik Gustafsson 2012 4th Round (Very similar to Fankie Corrado)

 

Having 8 players in the depth rounds of the NHL draft in 10 years of drafts vs the Canucks only having 3 players.

 

2005-2015 Rounds 2-7/9 Players the played a full season or 100+ games

Best Drafting teams.

1) LA (13 Players)

2) Detroit, Ottawa, Anaheim (12 Players)

5) Nashville, Columbus (11 Players)

7) Dallas (10 Players)

8) Tampa Bay, Buffalo, Carolina, St Louis, San Jose (9 Players)

13) Edmonton, Chicago, New York Rangers (8 Players)

16) Montreal, Toronto, Minnesota, Pittsburgh, Calgary (7 Players)

21) Florida, Colorado, Washington, New York Islanders (6 Players)

25) Boston, Winnipeg, New Jersey (5 Players)

28) Philidelphia, Arizona (4 Players)

30) Vancouver (3 Players)

I know this does not take in to consideration the 1st round and the Canucks go through a lot of changes through the last 10 years. 3 GM's, 4 Head Coaches and a whole lot of AGMS. But one thing has been a constant, our scouting staff. The people that are responsible to give GM and AGM reports on players. Any one of you guys can draft the first few picks but picking players in the latter rounds go more to the scouts that see countless amount of games a year. Ron Delorme has been Chief Amateur Scout for the canucks since 2000. In the last 16 years we should have developed some sort players we drafted what do we have to show for it? A few aging players and a small prospect pool. In the last 16 Years 3 GM's lost there jobs for under preforming and poor drafting, 3 Coaches have lost there jobs for under preforming but yet our head scout for the last 16 years has kept his job. 

 

Looking at our 1st round draft picks from 2005-2015 we have had 12 picks and 5 players have played a full season if you include Jake and Jared. If you think that is acceptable that is your call.

 

In my opinion someone that should take the blame for this should be the head scout. For the people saying that the head scout is not making discussions why is Ron Delorme always at the round table at draft day and why is he always the one on stage taking photos with our first overall pick . 

 

#FireDelorme

[Toews]

So far Thatcher Demko looks to be the most successful pick the Canucks have made outside of the 1st round in possibly a decade. But we still have to be careful here. Demko looks amazing but he still has to go through a lot of development and a lot of progress before we can declare the pick a success.

 

The same goes for Tryamkin, he only played something like 11 NHL games, we shouldn't be penciling him into the lineup as a future top 4 defenseman. There are some promising prospects in the Canucks organization, something that hasn't be there for years. But like I have said a lot of times on these forums, a number of prospects look great after their draft + 2 years. It remains to be seen whether they can make that final jump and translate that to the NHL. 

 

I too would like to see more accountability in our scouting staff. They have been decidedly poor for so long and the man in charge has stayed in charge. 

 

We are always happy to hear as fans that Benning goes out as frequently as possible to watch these young players but I wonder if part of it is because he does not fully trust the judgement of the scouting staff especially when it comes to high picks. I wonder though if it has an effect on other areas of his job.

 

I recently read an article by a GM and former scout, (the name really escapes me though) and he talked about the hardest part of the job being delegating the responsibility of scouting to your scouting department and trusting their judgment as you don't have the time to go on as many scouting trips.

 

Does JB who is a scout at heart trust the scouting department to do its job? Because based on past precedent you can forgive him for having misgivings. It often takes time to revamp the scouting staff so it's not like he can fire them all at once.

[48MPHSlapShot]

3 out of the 7 players we selected in the 2014 draft have already played in the NHL, and Demko is essentially a lock for the NHL as well. Quite a few of the players we selected in the 2015 draft are looking like absolute steals and performing well above expectations so far.

 

The only history that is relevant is recent history, and based on that, I'm not worried.

[87Crosby]

You can't really compare history in drafting. The tools we have today to measure a players skills are astronomically better than those used in times passed. Also with the improvement of technology it makes it easier for people to see more of the world's best players, no matter where they play. 

[ItsMillerTime]

Well ever since 2013 Canucks scouting got good. 2013 the notables were Horvat, Shinkaruk, Cassels and Subban.

Then 2014 Virtanen, McCann, Demko , Tryamkin and Forsling

2015 we got a steal with Boeser and not sure how good the other guys

 

But it just shows how good the scouts are for the Canucks and we shouldn't be worried with them.

[BaerToBo]

48 minutes ago, ItsMillerTime said:

Well ever since 2013 Canucks scouting got good. 2013 the notables were Horvat, Shinkaruk, Cassels and Subban.

Then 2014 Virtanen, McCann, Demko , Tryamkin and Forsling

2015 we got a steal with Boeser and not sure how good the other guys

 

But it just shows how good the scouts are for the Canucks and we shouldn't be worried with them.

Boeser looks like a 30 goal scoring 1st liner. Brisebois looks like a future 4-5 dman. Zuckenov is looking great for a 4th round pick but seems too small. Gaudette is tearing up college hockey putting up better numbers than shmaltz did in his rookie year. Niell is playing in the AHL or just a PTO at worst i see a great AHL dman (like bo-sang). Lukas Jasek has crazy skill but hes not good enough for the major league in the check republic but hes too good for the league hes in. And Tate Olson is a top 20 defenceman in the WHL as of now but i have no idea what his upside is. Everyone relax GMJB has everything under control

[ChampStatus]

5 hours ago, ItsMillerTime said:

Well ever since 2013 Canucks scouting got good. 2013 the notables were Horvat, Shinkaruk, Cassels and Subban.

Then 2014 Virtanen, McCann, Demko , Tryamkin and Forsling

2015 we got a steal with Boeser and not sure how good the other guys

 

But it just shows how good the scouts are for the Canucks and we shouldn't be worried with them.

Forsling is no longer with the canucks shipped to chicago for adam clendening. Tryamkin still has a lot to prove. Demko has yet to play a pro game. McCann seems like everyone here wants him gone. Boeser has yet to play a pro game. A lot of good NCAA players cant make the jump to the NHL.

[ItsMillerTime]

37 minutes ago, ChampStatus said:

Forsling is no longer with the canucks shipped to chicago for adam clendening. Tryamkin still has a lot to prove. Demko has yet to play a pro game. McCann seems like everyone here wants him gone. Boeser has yet to play a pro game. A lot of good NCAA players cant make the jump to the NHL.

I know Forsling is traded. He was a steal in the 5th round. Tryamkin has proven he can still play in the NHL. Demko has played on team USA and was a hobby baker finalist. Im pretty sure everyone want McCann here still. Boeser will play a pro game in 2 years. A lot of Ncaa players have made it to the NHL http://www.collegehockeynews.com/almanac/draft-history.php who are pretty good. Its not the most chosen route to go though. 

[ChampStatus]

 

1 hour ago, ItsMillerTime said:

I know Forsling is traded. He was a steal in the 5th round. Tryamkin has proven he can still play in the NHL. Demko has played on team USA and was a hobby baker finalist. Im pretty sure everyone want McCann here still. Boeser will play a pro game in 2 years. A lot of Ncaa players have made it to the NHL http://www.collegehockeynews.com/almanac/draft-history.php who are pretty good. Its not the most chosen route to go though. 

It does not matter if you draft Forsling at the 5th round when you trade him for someone who did not last with the canucks for more then a year.

Tryamkin has not proven he can play in the NHL. He has played 13 games. Give him 2 years see where he is then.

 

Demko was a great goalie in NCAA but here are a few names for you that also played great in NCAA

 

Drew LeBlanc

Jack Connolly

Andy Miele

Blake Geoffrion

Junior Lessard

Marty Sertich

Matt Carle

Ryan Duncan

Kevin Porter

Matt Gilroy

Peter Sejna

 

All Hobby Baker 'Winners' look at that list, Matt Carle, Kevin Porter and Mat Gilroy are the only NHL players on that list. Just because they played outstanding in NCAA it does not mean that it turns into NHL level talent. That goes for Demko and Boeser.

 

 

[ItsMillerTime]

50 minutes ago, ChampStatus said:

 

It does not matter if you draft Forsling at the 5th round when you trade him for someone who did not last with the canucks for more then a year.

Tryamkin has not proven he can play in the NHL. He has played 13 games. Give him 2 years see where he is then.

 

Demko was a great goalie in NCAA but here are a few names for you that also played great in NCAA

 

Drew LeBlanc

Jack Connolly

Andy Miele

Blake Geoffrion

Junior Lessard

Marty Sertich

Matt Carle

Ryan Duncan

Kevin Porter

Matt Gilroy

Peter Sejna

 

All Hobby Baker 'Winners' look at that list, Matt Carle, Kevin Porter and Mat Gilroy are the only NHL players on that list. Just because they played outstanding in NCAA it does not mean that it turns into NHL level talent. That goes for Demko and Boeser.

 

 

Matt Carle isn't that bad. Also how long ago were those players drafted? Hockey is at such a higher level.

[Gollumpus]

54 minutes ago, ChampStatus said:

 

It does not matter if you draft Forsling at the 5th round when you trade him for someone who did not last with the canucks for more then a year.

 

 

Uhm, could you please expand on this? What I'm thinking you're saying here is that drafting Forsling doesn't count as a positive selection for the Canucks scouting system because he was later traded.

 

                                     regards,  G.

[ChampStatus]

2 hours ago, Gollumpus said:

Uhm, could you please expand on this? What I'm thinking you're saying here is that drafting Forsling doesn't count as a positive selection for the Canucks scouting system because he was later traded.

 

                                     regards,  G.

Forsling drafted then trading for a player that in my opinion an awful player that did not do anything for the Canucks. Yes scouting telling Jim B to trade a valued asset for a player they felt was more NHL ready then Forsling. So an overall pick / trade I would say it was a scouting fail.

 

2 hours ago, ItsMillerTime said:

Matt Carle isn't that bad. Also how long ago were those players drafted? Hockey is at such a higher level.

That list was 2013-2003. In 11 years only 3 NHL players.

[ItsMillerTime]

8 minutes ago, ChampStatus said:

Forsling drafted then trading for a player that in my opinion an awful player that did not do anything for the Canucks. Yes scouting telling Jim B to trade a valued asset for a player they felt was more NHL ready then Forsling. So an overall pick / trade I would say it was a scouting fail.

 

That list was 2013-2003. In 11 years only 3 NHL players.

31 percent of NHL players last year played College hockey. There will be good players and bad players. You can't judge 1 player because the other ones failed to make it. Brock Boeser is one of a kind. If people think Caggiula can play in NHL then Boeser can.

[Gollumpus]

2 hours ago, ChampStatus said:

Forsling drafted then trading for a player that in my opinion an awful player that did not do anything for the Canucks. Yes scouting telling Jim B to trade a valued asset for a player they felt was more NHL ready then Forsling. So an overall pick / trade I would say it was a scouting fail.

So you don't differentiate between a junior scout, vs a European scout, vs a college scout, vs a professional scout and so on? If something fails in one area (assuming it is a fail) then the entire organization fails?

 

I'm also curious as to how you believe Ron Delorme has managed to hold on to his job over various owners, changes in upper management (team presidents, GMs, etc) and coaches if indeed he is so bad at his job? You've listed all/most of his failings, and that he should have been fired, but you haven't stated why you believe he is still here.

 

19 hours ago, ChampStatus said:

 

In my opinion someone that should take the blame for this should be the head scout. For the people saying that the head scout is not making discussions why is Ron Delorme always at the round table at draft day and why is he always the one on stage taking photos with our first overall pick . 

Not sure if you're being serious here. Can you name a team which doesn't have at least a half a dozen team officials up on the stage (including the head scout) when making the announcement for their 1st round pick?

 

                                                        regards,  G.

[ChampStatus]

2 hours ago, Gollumpus said:

So you don't differentiate between a junior scout, vs a European scout, vs a college scout, vs a professional scout and so on? If something fails in one area (assuming it is a fail) then the entire organization fails?

 

I'm also curious as to how you believe Ron Delorme has managed to hold on to his job over various owners, changes in upper management (team presidents, GMs, etc) and coaches if indeed he is so bad at his job? You've listed all/most of his failings, and that he should have been fired, but you haven't stated why you believe he is still here.

 

Not sure if you're being serious here. Can you name a team which doesn't have at least a half a dozen team officials up on the stage (including the head scout) when making the announcement for their 1st round pick?

 

                                                        regards,  G.

Amateur scouts, European Scouts, College Scouts, CHL Scouts, Pro Scouts have been one of the canucks short comings for the last 20 years have been all level of scouting. Jim hiering his son Brandon Benning as a scout after being fired from the Flames for poor judgement of players and lack of hockey knowledge. The problem seems to be that the canucks scouting staff is an olds boys club. Hockey has changed since a lot of them played and other teams have been getting younger in the front office and scouting staff for example. John Chayka and Kyle Dubas. The canucks need to take a more Analytical look at players not gut feelings.

 

Ron has been with the canucks since 2000 if anything its time to change some things up because we have to many old school scouts. His time has come and he can move on now. To look at both sides of the coin, what has he done with scouting reports. How many gem players have we got in the last 16 years. Players the come up to be a huge surprise via trades or draft. I still think not enough compared to other teams. So i still think Ron needs to go!

 

[Gollumpus]

15 hours ago, ChampStatus said:

Amateur scouts, European Scouts, College Scouts, CHL Scouts, Pro Scouts have been one of the canucks short comings for the last 20 years have been all level of scouting. Jim hiering his son Brandon Benning as a scout after being fired from the Flames for poor judgement of players and lack of hockey knowledge. The problem seems to be that the canucks scouting staff is an olds boys club. Hockey has changed since a lot of them played and other teams have been getting younger in the front office and scouting staff for example. John Chayka and Kyle Dubas. The canucks need to take a more Analytical look at players not gut feelings.

 

Ron has been with the canucks since 2000 if anything its time to change some things up because we have to many old school scouts. His time has come and he can move on now. To look at both sides of the coin, what has he done with scouting reports. How many gem players have we got in the last 16 years. Players the come up to be a huge surprise via trades or draft. I still think not enough compared to other teams. So i still think Ron needs to go!

 

So getting a guy like Tanev as a free agent doesn't count as a success by the scouting department? I assume that Lack doesn't count regardless, since you've previously established that a prospect/player who has been traded no longer matters (eg. Forsling).

 

And I'd still like to hear from you how it is that Delorme has managed to stay in the Canucks' employ if he is so bad at his job? Even if he is "old school" in his approach, he has survived regimes that are "new(er) school" with regard to scouting. Why haven't these regimes terminated Delorme if he is doing such a poor job? Is it possible that he has been performing his duties as his employers have asked of him?

 

I look forward to some clarification of your position rather than another diatribe of your gut feelings on this subject.

 

                                                   regards,  G.

[ChampStatus]

45 minutes ago, Gollumpus said:

So getting a guy like Tanev as a free agent doesn't count as a success by the scouting department? I assume that Lack doesn't count regardless, since you've previously established that a prospect/player who has been traded no longer matters (eg. Forsling).

 

And I'd still like to hear from you how it is that Delorme has managed to stay in the Canucks' employ if he is so bad at his job? Even if he is "old school" in his approach, he has survived regimes that are "new(er) school" with regard to scouting. Why haven't these regimes terminated Delorme if he is doing such a poor job? Is it possible that he has been performing his duties as his employers have asked of him?

 

I look forward to some clarification of your position rather than another diatribe of your gut feelings on this subject.

 

                                                   regards,  G.

I don't know how he has kept his job for so long.

I don't know why he has not been fired.

Owners might like him.

GM's might have all liked him.

But going to my original point.

The Canucks have been the worst drafting team in the league for a long time.

Some blame has to go on the scouts?

[Gollumpus]

On 5/10/2016 at 6:32 PM, ChampStatus said:

I don't know how he has kept his job for so long.

I don't know why he has not been fired.

Owners might like him.

GM's might have all liked him.

But going to my original point.

The Canucks have been the worst drafting team in the league for a long time.

Some blame has to go on the scouts?

Sure, some blame has to go to the scouts, but which ones and how much?

 

The question is: if Delorme is supposed to be so bad, as some are suggesting, why hasn't he been relieved of his duties? I think that he could have been made a scapegoat by any number of GMs over the years, but he's still here. This suggests to me that the various owners/front office people/GMs have seen value in Ron Delorme's contributions (more so than some fans) and they have kept him around. because he's doing his job. 

 

Maybe some fans disagree with the above statement, but if you believe Delorme should go then perhaps you should be calling for the GM etc to be dismissed for keeping him around.

 

                                       regards,  G.

[ChampStatus]

12 minutes ago, Gollumpus said:

Sure, some blame has to go to the scouts, but which ones and how much?

 

The question is: if Delorme is supposed to be so bad, as some are suggesting, why hasn't he been relieved of his duties? I think that he could have been made a scapegoat by any number of GMs over the years, but he's still here. This suggests to me that the various owners/front office people/GMs have seen value in Ron Delorme's contributions (more so than some fans) and they have kept him around. because he's doing his job. 

 

Maybe some fans disagree with the above statement, but if you believe Delorme should go then perhaps you should be calling for the GM etc to be dismissed for keeping him around.

 

                                       regards,  G.

Being a Chief Scout he also holds more responsibility then the other scouts that's why he is the chief scout. Holding more responsibility usually means if your team is not functioning properly and not doing there jobs he is the first one talked to by the GM/President. The head of departments usually is the one the reports directly to the superior. The department in question has not been doing what it should be doing under Ron Delorme. I find it surprising that there has not be terminated yet but some of the scouting staff has been.

[Angry Goose]

39 minutes ago, ChampStatus said:

Being a Chief Scout he also holds more responsibility then the other scouts that's why he is the chief scout. Holding more responsibility usually means if your team is not functioning properly and not doing there jobs he is the first one talked to by the GM/President. The head of departments usually is the one the reports directly to the superior. The department in question has not been doing what it should be doing under Ron Delorme. I find it surprising that there has not be terminated yet but some of the scouting staff has been.

 

I wouldn't worry about Delorme so much.  The next guy in charge under Benning is Judd Bracket, and both JB/TL seem extremely confident in him.  Given his recent promotion (and hence responsibility) he is definitely evaluating the performance of the scouting staff, and no doubt he has the autonomy to let JB know if the scouting staff needs to be improved.  I highly doubt he is of the 'old boys club' kinda culture, JB for that matter as well.