Pears Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 41 minutes ago, oldnews said: LOL. Wow. First, it's horrible logic. You don't forego adding something you need because it's not one of the 10 or so #1 D in the NHL. Second, neither Vatanen nor Shattenkirk are #1D - not even close. Vatanen was 6th on the Ducks blueline in 5 on 5 icetime. Shattenkirk was #3 in St Louis. Being a powerplay guy (and not a top pk) does not make you a #1. Tell yourselves you don't need Gudbranson all you want Edmonton. You've been an exceptionally easy team to play against for a long time. Agreed Vatanen isn't a legit #1, but Shattenkirk as one is debatable IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 6 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: Would oilers like a player like Gud? sure their d core could use any sort of help, but they have a big body minute guy in Nurse. They have the shutdown D in Klefbom, they have another big body D in Reinhart, they really need a PMD. Call it a #1, #2 or #4 but Since the Schultz signing didn't work out, the main need for the oilers is experienced PMD who can work on the PP. If he can be a RHD even better. I don't want to stick up for anything of the oilers but if they had the choice of Gudbranson and Shattenkirk/Vantanen, the two PMD make far more sense for their team needs. They will cost more, but they are much more suited to their team need on D. I think that article was just poorly written. But just like in TO the writers in the city of champions are quite used to spinning losses into what they'd call wins. Calling Klefbom a "shutdown D" is a misrepresentation. He's closer to their #1, two way, all situations D than either Vatanen or Shattenkirk would be, who god knows how someone could refer to them that way. Klefbom is more like their junior Edler than a 'shutdown' D. You're also forgetting Sekera, who they're paying 5.5 million for the next 5 years. If they want to add players like they're naming to a roster with players like Draisaitl, Yakupov, Reinhart expiring next year (and a handful of others), McDavid and Nurse the following year, they'll have to move one of their big pedigree forwards to do so. Could they benefit from a move that costs a late 1st, early 2nd instead. Hell yes, they could. Perhaps they deal one of their young forwards for a pmd - the price they'll pay won't be comparable to Gudbranson's. How does the Gudbranson deal matchup to the Reinhart deal? That is a better question than 'do the Oilers even need Gudbranson? nah...' If you have an issue with the semantics however, you should take it up with the blogger. Vatanen and Shattenkirk are not #1 D. Not even close. The 'semantics' aren't important, but it clearly indicates a fundamental lack of conception of what they're talking about. Do they have a true shutdown D? That is debatable, and I would say no, they don't. Do they have a true pmd. That is debatable. No, they have Andrej Sekera haha. But I don't really care tbh. What they most certainly don't have is Gudbranson, and they can suck it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 4 minutes ago, Pears said: Agreed Vatanen isn't a legit #1, but Shattenkirk as one is debatable IMO. Not in the real world he's not. Alex Pietrangelo is St Louis' #1. Shattenkirk simply doesn't handle the kind of minutes to be considered a #1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jiggs50 Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 14 minutes ago, Pears said: Agreed Vatanen isn't a legit #1, but Shattenkirk as one is debatable IMO. Shattenkirk is not a number 1. He's a 3 imo. He was hella shaky during the playoffs this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 28 minutes ago, oldnews said: Calling Klefbom a "shutdown D" is a misrepresentation. He's closer to their #1, two way, all situations D than either Vatanen or Shattenkirk would be, who god knows how someone could refer to them that way. Klefbom is more like their junior Edler than a 'shutdown' D. You're also forgetting Sekera, who they're paying 5.5 million for the next 5 years. If they want to add players like they're naming to a roster with players like Draisaitl, Yakupov, Reinhart expiring next year (and a handful of others), McDavid and Nurse the following year, they'll have to move one of their big pedigree forwards to do so. Could they benefit from a move that costs a late 1st, early 2nd instead. Hell yes, they could. Perhaps they deal one of their young forwards for a pmd - the price they'll pay won't be comparable to Gudbranson's. How does the Gudbranson deal matchup to the Reinhart deal? That is a better question than 'do the Oilers even need Gudbranson? nah...' If you have an issue with the semantics however, you should take it up with the blogger. Vatanen and Shattenkirk are not #1 D. Not even close. The 'semantics' aren't important, but it clearly indicates a fundamental lack of conception of what they're talking about. Do they have a true shutdown D? That is debatable, and I would say no, they don't. Do they have a true pmd. That is debatable. No, they have Andrej Sekera haha. But I don't really care tbh. What they most certainly don't have is Gudbranson, and they can suck it. I'm not saying Vatanen or Shattenkirk are #1 D, but they fit the oilers need far greater than Gudbranson would have. That is all. That's not a knock on Gudbranson, just his skillset is not what the oilers are missing on the back end. I'm not defending the oilers in any way. The massively overpaid in Reinhart. They watched their rival trade for the GM's old teams top young D. They massively overpaid for Sekera, they overpaid for Ference and they crowned Schultz before he was even settled into the NHL. They are terribly run organization and even worse at fixing their back end. But Gudbranson is not the type of player that solves the oilers issue on their back end. The writer of the blog, wrote it as if, the oilers had any matter of say whether they got Gudbranson or not, he makes it seem like it was a good pass on the oilers, but that just an idiot bloger crafting another loss into how they would view it as a win. Sure Vatanen or Shattenkirk would fit better but the oilers still actually would have to make a move. Something they haven't down in 6 years. Also Klefbom is the very definition of shutdown D. I don't know where you get the idea that he's not. http://forecaster.thehockeynews.com/hockeynews/hockey/player.php?8954 Quote Talented shutdown defenseman with upside http://www.coppernblue.com/statistical-analysis/2015/12/19/10621842/klefboms-injury-might-be-the-oilers-most-difficult-hurdle-yet Quote Since his call up last season, Klefbom has proven to be the shutdown defender that Oilers fans have been hoping for since the start of the rebuild. That may surprise some people, but in today's NHL Oscar Klefbom is what a top end defensive defenceman looks like http://edmontonjournal.com/sports/hockey/nhl/cult-of-hockey/how-soon-will-oscar-klefbom-graduate-to-the-edmonton-oilers-and-how-good-will-he-be-when-he-gets-there Quote Add that he’s competent and confident with the puck, and Klefbom has the potential to be an elite shutdown defenceman. He’s almost certainly never going to put up big numbers in the NHL – he’s a puck-mover of the ‘great outlet pass’ rather than ‘power play quarterback’ variety http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/oscar-klefbom-signs-seven-year-29-million-pact-with-oilers/ Quote Klefbom’s shutdown ability should win him serious points with new coach Todd McLellan and there’s even the possibility he has the confidence in the young defenseman to put him on the top pairing alongside Sekera Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 12 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: Also Klefbom is the very definition of shutdown D. I don't know where you get the idea that he's not. http://forecaster.thehockeynews.com/hockeynews/hockey/player.php?8954 http://www.coppernblue.com/statistical-analysis/2015/12/19/10621842/klefboms-injury-might-be-the-oilers-most-difficult-hurdle-yet http://edmontonjournal.com/sports/hockey/nhl/cult-of-hockey/how-soon-will-oscar-klefbom-graduate-to-the-edmonton-oilers-and-how-good-will-he-be-when-he-gets-there http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/oscar-klefbom-signs-seven-year-29-million-pact-with-oilers/ Nope. He's closer to the way I've defined him - and posting the blogs of folks like the one that think Vatanen is a #1 doesn't change that. Klefbom had the 2nd most mintues/game of Edmonton's blueliners on the powerplay. http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_statistics.php?ds=30&s=8&f1=2015_s&f2=5v4&f4=D&f5=EDM&c=0+1+3+5+4+6+7+8+13+14+29+30+32+33+34+45+46+63+67 He's a two way D that they'll count in in all situations - more akin to an Edler - a top pairing two way D. Not a "shutdown" D - that is a misrepresentation - but I don't expect Oilers bloggers to understand what a 1D, two way or shutdown D is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vancouverdepression Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 for years to come..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vancouverdepression Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 For years to come.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vancouverdepression Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 For years to come! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuckster19 Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 Has he spoken to the media since he was traded? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 Just now, canuckster19 said: Has he spoken to the media since he was traded? Currently on vacation in Africa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuckster19 Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 Just now, J.R. said: Currently on vacation in Africa. Did he "Bless the rains down in Africa" when he was traded to Vancouver? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 37 minutes ago, oldnews said: Nope. He's closer to the way I've defined him - and posting the blogs of folks like the one that think Vatanen is a #1 doesn't change that. Klefbom had the 2nd most mintues/game of Edmonton's blueliners on the powerplay. http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_statistics.php?ds=30&s=8&f1=2015_s&f2=5v4&f4=D&f5=EDM&c=0+1+3+5+4+6+7+8+13+14+29+30+32+33+34+45+46+63+67 He's a two way D that they'll count in in all situations - more akin to an Edler - a top pairing two way D. Not a "shutdown" D - that is a misrepresentation - but I don't expect Oilers bloggers to understand what a 1D, two way or shutdown D is. Funny how now you revert analytic's now on what is considered a shutdown D. It's not like games played had anything to do with it, or the fact they there highest offensive D was traded at TD (did you forget about him since he didn't show up on your list) or the fact that oilers didn't have any other option at deploying D, unless they were going to throw nurse into that spot in his first full season. Or the AHL D they had available. Seriously this is a prime example of how analytic's are misused. If anyone should understand that it should be you. Sometimes its better to watch how a player plays the game rather they make a conclusion on what you see on the stat sheet. Maybe Klefbom can put that on his resume for next time he's up for a contract. He's a shutdown and PP specialist since he was 3rd on his team in D power play usage,. for 31 games one season Maybe Bartkowsi and Hammer can do the same since they were giving more PP usage when Edler went down. He was drafted as a shutdown defense, He's been a shutdown D his entire life. Fans and media see him as a shutdown D Oilers mgmt expect him to be their shutdown D. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.....You get the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 15 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: Funny how now you revert analytic's now on what is considered a shutdown D. It's not like games played had anything to do with it, or the fact they there highest offensive D was traded at TD (did you forget about him since he didn't show up on your list) or the fact that oilers didn't have any other option at deploying D, unless they were going to throw nurse into that spot in his first full season. Seriously this is a prime example of how analytic's are misused. If anyone should understand that it should be you. Sometime its better to watch how a player plays the game rather they make a conclusion on what you see on the stat sheet. Maybe Klefbom can put that on his resume for next time he's up for a contract. He's a shutdown and PP specialist since he was 3rd on his team in D power play usage,. for 31 games one season He was drafted as a shutdown defense, He's been a shutdown D his entire life. Fans and media see him as a shutdown D Oilers mgmt expect him to be their shutdown D. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.....You get the point. You're chasing your tail on this one. How many NHL seasons do you have to judge Klefbom's role on? Analytics are more reliable than the impressions of bloggers, who even with them as a tool, can't tell the difference between a complementary second pairing pmd and a #1. Klefbom is the closest thing the Coil have to that #1 - you can attempt to reduce his usage to shutdown, but that would be the equivalent of calling Edler a 'shutdown' D. Yeah, Edler has handled hard minutes - as had Klefbom and here's the evidence that Klefbom in part does fulfill a shutdown role (so you're misunderstanding my point). http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_statistics.php?ds=30&s=13&f1=2015_s&f2=5v5&f4=D&f5=EDM&c=0+1+3+5+4+6+7+8+13+14+29+30+32+33+34+45+46+63+67# Strongest quality of competition on Ed blueline. http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_statistics.php?ds=30&s=63&f1=2015_s&f2=5v5&f4=D&f5=EDM&c=0+1+3+5+4+6+7+8+13+14+29+30+32+33+34+45+46+63+67# Three regulars with lower ozone starts. So, is Klefbom capable of a shutdown role - arguably yes - but when you factor in his actual usage - ie also the 2nd most pp minutes/game... http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_statistics.php?ds=30&s=8&f1=2015_s&f2=5v4&f4=D&f5=EDM&f7=10-&c=0+1+3+5+4+6+7+8+13+14+29+30+32+33+34+45+46+63+67 Then you see that he's not necessarily even their primary go-to 'shutdown' D - it's as easy to make the case that that is Sekera - who also plays a dual role as their top powerplay minutes D. Their D are not cookie cutters - shutdown/pmd - it's not that simple - and Klefbom is not reducible to that role. A young D comes in and puts up 35pts in his first 107 NHL games - you dont reduce/cookie cutter that player into a "shutdown". Edmonton has far closer to a "#1D" in Klefbom than they would in acquiring a Vatanen or Stattenkirk. You can quack all you want about it. You're chasing your tail on this one, quoting bloggers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 6 minutes ago, oldnews said: You're chasing your tail on this one. How many NHL seasons do you have to judge Klefbom's role on? Analytics are more reliable than the impressions of bloggers, who even with them as a tool, can't tell the difference between a complementary second pairing pmd and a #1. Klefbom is the closest thing the Coil have to that #1 - you can attempt to reduce his usage to shutdown, but that would be the equivalent of calling Edler a 'shutdown' D. This should answer everything. And that's why analytic fail. Oilers don't have any other options. Just because canucks used Edler the most on the PP doesn't mean he's a good fit there, it doesn't mean that's what the rest of the league would define him as. Kleftbom is a shutdown d, that's what he is, that's what he always was, that's what he was drafted as, that's what oilers expect him to be. What more do you need, Klefbom himself to say his role is a shutdown D.. 6 minutes ago, oldnews said: Yeah, Edler has handled hard minutes - as had Klefbom and here's the evidence that Klefbom in part does fulfill a shutdown role (so you're misunderstanding my point). http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_statistics.php?ds=30&s=13&f1=2015_s&f2=5v5&f4=D&f5=EDM&c=0+1+3+5+4+6+7+8+13+14+29+30+32+33+34+45+46+63+67# Strongest quality of competition on Ed blueline. http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_statistics.php?ds=30&s=63&f1=2015_s&f2=5v5&f4=D&f5=EDM&c=0+1+3+5+4+6+7+8+13+14+29+30+32+33+34+45+46+63+67# Three regulars with lower ozone starts. Forgetting Schultz again are you..... 6 minutes ago, oldnews said: So, is Klefbom capable of a shutdown role - arguably yes - but when you factor in his actual usage - ie also the 2nd most pp minutes/game... Schultz? I'm pretty sure he played the majority of the season as an oiler... 6 minutes ago, oldnews said: http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_statistics.php?ds=30&s=8&f1=2015_s&f2=5v4&f4=D&f5=EDM&f7=10-&c=0+1+3+5+4+6+7+8+13+14+29+30+32+33+34+45+46+63+67 Then you see that he's not necessarily even their primary go-to 'shutdown' D - it's as easy to make the case that that is Sekera - who also plays a dual role as their top powerplay minutes D. Again, who else were the oilers supposed to use in the 30 game he played this season. How can you not get it? Someone has to play in those situations, and when the rest of your D core is garbage, too young, or AHL quality, it doesn't mean that's what your skill set is because you were the only option.ANd who cares if he played some PP minutes. Being a shutdown D doesn't mean you never allowed to get points. 6 minutes ago, oldnews said: Their D are not cookie cutters - shutdown/pmd - it's not that simple - and Klefbom is not reducible to that role. A young D comes in and puts up 35pts in his first 107 NHL games - you dont reduce/cookie cutter that player into a "shutdown". Edmonton has far closer to a "#1D" in Klefbom than they would in acquiring a Vatanen or Stattenkirk. I don't care about the blog that said the oiler was a #1 D. I also never said Vatanen or Shattenkirk were #1 D. But the oilers need isn't player like Gudbrason, who also isn't a #1 D. The oilers need a PMD. That's the skill set they need going forward and that's why it's not the end of the world they didn't get Gud. 6 minutes ago, oldnews said: You can quack all you want about it. You're chasing your tail on this one, quoting bloggers. You have no clue what you're talking about here, you and your stats are on your own if you think he's not a shutdown D. Sadly you'll stick with you analytic's rather than listen to the people that watch him on the regular, be it oilers fans or not. They still no more about their own team then Oldnews does.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 7 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: This should answer everything. And that's why analytic fail. Oilers don't have any other options. Just because canucks used Edler the most on the PP doesn't mean he's a good fit there, it doesn't mean that's what the rest of the league would define him as. Kleftbom is a shutdown d, that's what he is, that's what he always was, that's what he was drafted as, that's what oilers expect him to be. What more do you need, Klefbom himself to say his role is a shutdown D.. Forgetting Schultz again are you..... Schultz? I'm pretty sure he played the majority of the season as an oiler... Again, who else were the oilers supposed to use in the 30 game he played this season. How can you not get it? Someone has to play in those situations, and when the rest of your D core is garbage, too young, or AHL quality, it doesn't mean that's what your skill set is because you were the only option.ANd who cares if he played some PP minutes. Being a shutdown D doesn't mean you never allowed to get points. I don't care about the blog that said the oiler was a #1 D. I also never said Vatanen or Shattenkirk were #1 D. But the oilers need isn't player like Gudbrason, who also isn't a #1 D. The oilers need a PMD. That's the skill set they need going forward and that's why it's not the end of the world they didn't get Gud. You have no clue what you're talking about here, you and your stats are on your own if you think he's not a shutdown D. Sadly you'll stick with you analytic's rather than listen to the people that watch him on the regular, be it oilers fans or not. They still no more about their own team then Oldnews does.. k The Canucks don't need Gudbranson. They already have Edler and Tanev. And more specifically they already have a RH shutdown D in Tanev. What they need is a pmd. And scoring. So why acquire Gudbranson when what you need is a pmd and offense. Except that is a weak argument that is based on a fallacy. Needing a pmd is another matter - that does not change the need for a player like Gudbranson. Gudbranson now allows the Canucks to find offense on either side of a pairing. Edler, Hutton, Tryamkin, Pedan, (Hamhuis), Sbisa = LHD Tanev - and now Gudbranson - Biega - and now Larsen, Stecher. They added something else they need - the idea that you don't improve your team because you have an 'order' of acquisitions is counterproductive. You add what you need when you can whether it is seen as your "primary" need or not. So Edmonton - yes Edmonton needs Gudbranson, probably moreso than Vancouver did. Why? Klefbom, Sekera, Nurse, Reinhart, Davidson = all LHD You can call Klefbom whatever you want - some characterize him as an offensive D, others as a 'shutdown' D - the reality is that he plays a dual role, is a two way D that plays in different situations - is not pigeon-holed as a 'shutdown' D even if that is in his repertoire. Gryba, Fayne: RHD. How does one arrive at the idea that Edmonton doesn't need Gudbranson? That they also need a pmd does not alter the imbalance they have in terms of young talent on the left side and on the right....a couple average assets. Does Edmonton need a Reinhart more than a Gudbranson? Edmonton needs an Erik Gudrbranson - and they need to replace Justin Schultz - but they also make that project more difficult by also pretty much needing that pmd to be a RH pmd. Not only that, but they've further defined their need (because they know their team so well) as a #1D and simultaneously - a RH PMD - because there are so many of those to choose from. Anyway, I wish them the best, and I'm glad they didn't need Gubbranson. They have Klefbom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elvis15 Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 16 hours ago, Crabcakes said: There's a difference when a D is getting PP time. They often set up on their off-side. Not sure why you include my comment in this post. Are you trying to say that Rowe was deliberately trying to limit the number of teams that were paying attention? In other words, that he was trying to play Benning? Passing him a lemon? I think that Benning knows pretty well what he's got. It's a defensive specialist. A player who gets the tough assignments and has a physical presence. I'd really like to see if the Canucks can get some development from Gudbranson. They did a crappy job with Markstrom. I just had more than one reply in one post to save space, and gave a little extra explanation for the people surprised at a trade while playoffs are still ongoing. It happens, but like I said it's usually minor deals only. No further opinion than that as I'm not sure Rowe's intentions. He may have wanted McCann compared to any options with teams still in the playoffs (or otherwise) or felt familiar with Benning for some reason. You never know, maybe he thought he could pull a fast one as well (and maybe he thinks he did). And while I agree on the of-side options for D when on the PP, that can technically happen any time a team is fully set up in the offensive zone. But my point overall isn't to limit or degrade Gudbranson, just to point out he's culpable in his point totals as well. Giving him more minutes in the offensive zone and PP opportunities isn't going to be the solution for him hitting 20 points and beyond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crabcakes Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 2 hours ago, elvis15 said: I just had more than one reply in one post to save space, and gave a little extra explanation for the people surprised at a trade while playoffs are still ongoing. It happens, but like I said it's usually minor deals only. No further opinion than that as I'm not sure Rowe's intentions. He may have wanted McCann compared to any options with teams still in the playoffs (or otherwise) or felt familiar with Benning for some reason. You never know, maybe he thought he could pull a fast one as well (and maybe he thinks he did). And while I agree on the of-side options for D when on the PP, that can technically happen any time a team is fully set up in the offensive zone. But my point overall isn't to limit or degrade Gudbranson, just to point out he's culpable in his point totals as well. Giving him more minutes in the offensive zone and PP opportunities isn't going to be the solution for him hitting 20 points and beyond. Another poster suggested that Rowe was after a player with a low cap hit in exchange for Gudbranson. A forward on his ELC would be ideal. This would explain why teams like Edmonton weren't involved. I'm sure all this talk is over thinking the situation. My point on the PP was more to explain why defensemen like Edler, who do play on the PP, have a more spread out shot diagram than someone who does not play on the PP. I am still hopeful that Gudbranson has some growth and development. He turned 24 on Jan 7, 16. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salacious Crumb Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 12 minutes ago, Crabcakes said: Another poster suggested that Rowe was after a player with a low cap hit in exchange for Gudbranson. A forward on his ELC would be ideal. This would explain why teams like Edmonton weren't involved. I'm sure all this talk is over thinking the situation. My point on the PP was more to explain why defensemen like Edler, who do play on the PP, have a more spread out shot diagram than someone who does not play on the PP. I am still hopeful that Gudbranson has some growth and development. He turned 24 on Jan 7, 16. Maybe you're not over thinking things...Oh man. If Gudbranson turns out to be an inside job I'm gonna have to revisit chemtrails! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Western Red Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 5 hours ago, vancouverdepression said: for years to come..... No mercy. I love it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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