aGENT Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 4 minutes ago, kloubek said: In my opinion, Horvat looks to me to have a ceiling of a solid, 2-way, 2nd line center. Who knows though - he developed well last year and if he continues that pace I might be surprised. I do think that if there is any chance of getting Stamkos that we do so. Getting an elite center would do wonders for our club. It's just that it would be a hard sell since our cap would be a consideration if we did manage to sign him, so finding solid talent for him to play with in the short term while Boeser, Baertschi, and Virtanen are working through the system could be a challenge. With a better chance of winning the cup with Tampa in the short term, I see no reason why he'd leave to come here. He'd definitely have to consider ~2+ years out. And even then, it's certainly a long shot he'd consider signing with us. Still, there's only so many teams who could fit him and very few are currently contenders. Still most likely he stays in TBL. But a lineup in a couple years something like below would not be horrible... Dubois, Stamkos, Boesser Daniel, Hank, Sutter Baer, Horvat, Virtanen Gaunce, Granlund, Etem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.B Cooper Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 7 minutes ago, Alflives said: If Tkatchuk is there at 5, this could be one of those rare occasions where he is worth the 7 and 20 to Arizona. Why? Because his dad played there? sorry but nope. That doesn't mean you just throw in a first round pick. It is a business. Not the Kieth club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaudette Celly Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 23 minutes ago, drummerboy said: I would be blown away if Jost because a #1. He had a couple good tourneys this year, but I jost don't see it happening. Also, the difference between pick 5 and 7 is not another first round pick. Especially 20. We would have to add something fairly decent. According to current scouting consensus there is a tiered difference, just as there is from the top-3. Moving up at the top end of the draft is almost always very expensive. Little point for a team in a position of power to trade down from there if all they're getting is a 2nd round pick in return. Very often there's someone who really wants a player and is willing to pony up, and with either Dubois or Tkachuk on the board at #5 that will almost certainly be the case this year. Canucks are in that second tier and a position of power. Highly doubt JB moves out of it if all that's there is a 2nd round pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.B Cooper Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 3 minutes ago, Hutton Wink said: According to current scouting consensus there is a tiered difference, just as there is from the top-3. Moving up at the top end of the draft is almost always very expensive. Little point for a team in a position of power to trade down from there if all they're getting is a 2nd round pick in return. Very often there's someone who really wants a player and is willing to pony up, and with either Dubois or Tkachuk on the board at #5 that will almost certainly be the case this year. Canucks are in that second tier and a position of power. Highly doubt JB moves out of it if all that's there is a 2nd round pick. I know there is a slight step down after 5, but I really doubt someone is willing to pay a mid level 1st to move up 2 spots, because the kids dad used to play there. Personally im still not convinced a lot of Tkachuks points and high rankings aren't because he plays on a line with some of the best players in the league. Where would he rank if not for all those easy tap ins? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elvis15 Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 You have to consider the fan base though, it's not just keeping it in the family but also the thought that fans might be more interested to come watch a the son of a player they used to know - one born and raised in Arizona as well. He'd be a marketable item. Sure, he's not Matthews and all the hype that comes with him, but he's still something they could consider moving for. That said, I think they have bigger needs at D to where they'd want to pick one of the top 3 available and see if another falls to them at 20th (or pick from the second tier). They'd have a development wait on that though so who knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 38 minutes ago, drummerboy said: I know there is a slight step down after 5, but I really doubt someone is willing to pay a mid level 1st to move up 2 spots, because the kids dad used to play there. Personally im still not convinced a lot of Tkachuks points and high rankings aren't because he plays on a line with some of the best players in the league. Where would he rank if not for all those easy tap ins? Tkachuk has a lot of first assists and solo effort goals too. But there's no doubt that the possession and play driving afforded by the quality players he shares the ice with have helped his numbers, especially since he's at his best from the circles in. Still, I think he's a legit player and in many other draft years would be ranked even higher than #4/5 overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 1 hour ago, drummerboy said: Why? Because his dad played there? sorry but nope. That doesn't mean you just throw in a first round pick. It is a business. Not the Kieth club. The kid is from there. He could be marketing for a club that few people really care about in their state. "Local Boy" kind of stuff. This is a rare circumstance. No way are they getting Matthews, so Tkatchuk could be all they can afford. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeNiro Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 I guess TSN didn't feel like they criticized this trade enough yet so they post another article by Yost about Gudbranson. This time it's about how defensemen aren't a product of their environment and a change of scenery won't make a difference. He even uses a bunch more analytics to "prove" this theory. I like this line: Quote It seems like every time a non-first pairing defender with shaky underlying performance at even strength is moved, the go-to argument is that the player will simply benefit from change. Could this guy try any harder to try and discredit Gudbranson? I'm gonna laugh so hard if he does reach a new level here and this guy looks like a tool. Meanwhile we get articles about how Marner and Matthews are guaranteed to be a dynamic duo in Toronto based on absolutely nothing. Keep up the quality work TSN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thad Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 18 minutes ago, DeNiro said: I guess TSN didn't feel like they criticized this trade enough yet so they post another article by Yost about Gudbranson. This time it's about how defensemen aren't a product of their environment and a change of scenery won't make a difference. He even uses a bunch more analytics to "prove" this theory. I like this line: Could this guy try any harder to try and discredit Gudbranson? I'm gonna laugh so hard if he does reach a new level here and this guy looks like a tool. Meanwhile we've articles about how Marner and Matthews are guaranteed to be a dynamic duo in Toronto based on absolutely nothing. Keep up the quality work TSN. Just read that lol. He acts like analytics is the end all be all on player evaluations. While I appreciate another view of the player, I trust the former pro athlete with years of scouting under his belt over the pro mathlete that writes for TSN who trash talks anyone not involved with the leafs... How's Phil doing on his new line, Mr Yost? Haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeNiro Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 1 minute ago, thad said: Just read that lol. He acts like analytics is the end all be all on player evaluations. While I appreciate another view of the player, I trust the former pro athlete with years of scouting under his belt over the pro mathlete that writes for TSN who trash talks anyone not involved with the leafs... How's Phil doing on his new line, Mr Yost? Haha He's very arrogant in coming to a conclusion about it as if analytics is a perfect science. In reality there's way too many outside factors that you couldn't possibly calculate with these formulas. These are human beings after all that can be affected by such as things as coaching, teammates, personal lives, and just growing as people and as players. The idea that players can't reach a new level at 24 is so ridiculous, and there's so much evidence to dispute that. His simplistic argument is nothing more than a way to try and dis Gudbranson and the Canucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 6 hours ago, DownUndaCanuck said: I would have rathered we wait to draft a center in the draft than replace McCann with a defenceman straight away. It's obvious what assets we have right now (top-end wise) and what assets we need. We have Virtanen (winger), McCann (center) who are both future top-6 scorers. We have Boeser as well who's proving to be the same. On defence we really lack some nice future top-4 guys apart from Hutton. Tryamkin, Subban and Brisebois are our defensive prospects and to be honest none of them may become full time top-4 defencemen. With the 5th overall pick, we have a legitimate stab at Dubois (a good two way center who is more skilled than McCann), Tkachuk (arguably a better gritty winger who scores more clutch goals than Virtanen) or Chychrun/Sergachev/Juolevi (an instant improvement over any of our defensive prospects except for Hutton maybe). I just think we should have waited to see who Edmonton draft before jumping into the assumption that Dubois will be on the table. We may well end up with having to take Tkachuk and end up with essentially a bunch of powerforwards and no true future center. I think if Dubois is off the table we need to make a big time trade for a future center. We need that future 1st line center, whether it was going to be McCann, Dubois or someone else via a trade. Honestly, Do you think JB makes this deal if he feels McCann is a lock to be a first line centre? ??? Clearly McCann is a good player. But there is a long way, and a few good bounces, between here & him stealing a top pivot spot. In the meantime > You cannot run your team manoeuvring every & all your assets & moves around this mythical top line pivot. Right now we had a chance to land a 6'5'' 220lb D man. You need that on your championship building block as well. Especially a decent right handed one, and with toughness our team currently dearly needs. Its not like the 1C, or for centre's in general, need is dire either. We have Hank, still highly serviceable if not dynamic, for at least another 2 years. Horvat is a highly capable 3C, charging hard to claim a role as a dominating 2C. 1C may be in his upside, but who knows? We have Sutter, a workable 2C & is certainly among the better 3C's in the league. We even have some young depth in Granlund, Vey & Gaunce. You have to grab that component you need when the opportunity is there. 5 hours ago, Alflives said: It looks like JB has enough verteran depth now to draft guys that will take 2 to 3 years to develop. So Jost and Fabbro might just be what he is planning to do? Who is that really big and tough D man that's figured to go in the middle of round one. I forgot his name, but he might be a JB guy too? Logan Stanley? 4 minutes ago, DeNiro said: He's very arrogant in coming to a conclusion about it as if analytics is a perfect science. In reality there's way too many outside factors that you couldn't possibly calculate with these formulas. These are human beings after all that can be affected by such as things as coaching, teammates, personal lives, and just growing as people and as players. The idea that players can't reach a new level at 24 is so ridiculous, and there's so much evidence to dispute that. His simplistic argument is nothing more than a way to try and dis Gudbranson and the Canucks. Money Ball / Money Puck / Analytics? Sure they have their place. I was a stats Junky as a coach in other sports. I still cast & deployed guys to handle, in fact dominate, physical match ups. The hockey analogy is nobody comes in the crease without paying the price. Even a lanky baseball pitcher can brush back a big batter or bust him in the chops. And impact a game physically. The point is every team needs guys who can, and WILL, impact physical match ups. We're developing a few, including Goody, which is great! Analytics help lines 2-3, your 2knd & 3rd pairing. How to coach, and yes help pick SOME guys that fill out your line up. No stats guy is required to tell anyone about physical match ups. Or that Kopitar or Malkin is a dominating centre, or that Chara can bust match ups. Yost can suck it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentSam Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 On May 28, 2016 at 0:15 PM, Pears said: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 44 minutes ago, thad said: Just read that lol. He acts like analytics is the end all be all on player evaluations. While I appreciate another view of the player, I trust the former pro athlete with years of scouting under his belt over the pro mathlete that writes for TSN who trash talks anyone not involved with the leafs... How's Phil doing on his new line, Mr Yost? Haha It's not even the 'analytics vs old school' battle the media and some here are attempting to colour it as IMO. Analytics are only as good as the analyzer and the context of the players usage. This is more a case of poor analysis and a lack of context leading to incorrect/inaccurate conclusions. 'Old school' has very little, if anything, to do with the trade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goal:thecup Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 Took me over a week (from May 25th) to read all of this thread, but I finally caught up, and can honestly say that I have read everybody's posts prior to this reply. Much as I wanted to keep and develop Jared McCann, I still absolutely love this trade. I cannot believe we have Erik Gudbranson. I have coveted him since his draft day. I wanted him in every trade with Florida. The exact piece we need on our eventual Cup-Winning Roster (CWR). And we now know for sure that JB is building a big, tough-to-play-against team. And we are getting younger and faster. Sure there are still holes in the CWR, it is a work-in-process. But there is no longer a hole at 2nd RHD, and Erik doesn't just fill the hole either, he is much more than that. 300 games in and just turned 24, hits like a truck, backs it, and his mates, up with his fists, and hardly takes any penalties? Are you kidding me? We turned a corner when Tryamkin showed he can make the roster. But we just blew down the highway getting Gudbranson! Also, much as I liked Mike Gillis, isn't it nice to see GMs phoning our GM up and offering deals? Unfortunately for Gillis, he did not seem to develop good working relationships around the league. JB is more like one of the boys, an honest trader, and 'one who knows what a Stanley Cup Winning Team looks like'. - (paraphrased from a quote attributed to Benning in the New Analytics vs Traditional Scouting discussion). Imo, and contrary to many on here, I do not think we need to replace McCann, or the 2nd round pick. What we did need was to acquire a player like EG, that is to say, a solid, 2RHD, young, fast, big, and developed, and there are not many (any?) out there. He does a lot more than fill that roster spot and he is going to help build respect for the Vancouver Canucks. Not only does he fill the bill, but he will help fill the building. I know a lot more of us are looking forward to watching him and the newly-firmer Canucks. We probably won't win it all this year, but we have taken massive steps forward, and JB & Co. are not finished yet. I think we will get one more high draft pick from this season's results, and remember, these high picks become high picks in every round. JB keeps filling the prospect pipeline, and the 21-26 year-old pipeline, and when a deal like this is offered, he has the assets to close the deal. When the acquisition fits the Cup-Winning Roster plan, he makes the hard decision and lets go of players like McCann and draft picks. Much as JB values draft picks and as much as JB makes the most out of every pick, he also knows that players that are ready to fill holes in the roster are more valuable than picks. Given there is always an element of uncertainty with draft picks, understandably less so of course with sure-fire picks like Ekblad or McDavid, but other than generational-type talents, and especially after the first say 10 picks, there is considerable uncertainty that any particular pick will work out "real good". 33rd overall is worth less than almost any roster player. That is also why it worked to trade for Vey, Baertschi, and (who else was it?) Etem(?), giving up 2nds for players needed on our current roster. These three helped fill in the 21-26 year-old pipeline and are available for trade if final CWR players become available. JB so far, has exercised his 1st round picks, but been willing to move later picks to get deals done. I'm not going to project what he will do this year, maybe drafting Tkachuk or Dubois, if he thinks they might fit the eventual roster, trading down, or who knows? But I didn't think we would see Reinhart traded to Edmonton, and I didn't think Boston was ever going to trade Hamilton. So I sure as shootin' didn't see us getting Eric Gudbranson. I don't know what Jim Benning is going to do next, but I love what he's done so far. This season is going to be another fun season to see it start to come together. I am looking forward to a much more physical team. Virtanen a year older, Pedan holding the 13th forward / 7th defenseman spot, Tryamkin at 2LD / 3LD, Gudbranson 2RD. Settle a few scores, gain a bit of respect in the west, and make our home ice a place NHL players no longer enjoy visiting. Yes please. And more please, Mr. Benning; keep up the real good work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentSam Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 1 hour ago, DeNiro said: I guess TSN didn't feel like they criticized this trade enough yet so they post another article by Yost about Gudbranson. This time it's about how defensemen aren't a product of their environment and a change of scenery won't make a difference. He even uses a bunch more analytics to "prove" this theory. I like this line: Could this guy try any harder to try and discredit Gudbranson? I'm gonna laugh so hard if he does reach a new level here and this guy looks like a tool. Meanwhile we get articles about how Marner and Matthews are guaranteed to be a dynamic duo in Toronto based on absolutely nothing. Keep up the quality work TSN. DeNiro, I too am sick and tired of the TSN journalism.. How can Yost explain Justin Schultz's turn around in Pittsburgh? Or Petrangelo's turn around in St Louis. Yost believes the Leafs will win the Cup next year on Babcock's and Lamorillo's credibility alone. But the fact remains, they took the jobs for the money going into retirement. How about the " turn around" play of some of the Leafs they traded !! Kessel, Pollak, Winnik looked great in Washington. Yost is a "milk" dud. ** ps Marner and Mathews will get pummelled like Hall, Eberle, RNH, have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phat Fingers Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 5 hours ago, Warhippy said: Sorry not a chance at #2 Laine/Matthews (unlikely Toronto takes Laine unless they ensure they've got Stamkos long term) is the big boy winger that the Jets have been looking for, skates well and has a size and shot like Ovi. at # 3 you've the arguably 2nd best Finn, possibly the best depending on your needs, a large amazingly smooth skating playmaker on the wing....being drafted by a Finnish GM in kekalainen. No chance Chevy or Kek go take Tkachuk I wouldn't do it, just quoting the Elliot. Click bait most likely, but I would do nearly anything not to see JP in Edmonton. It it is not beyond the bounds as Tkachuk is showing off with no other players to cloud the scouting. Plus he would be a great marketing tool for Columbus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cripplereh Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 I can say this much about the trade; We gave up McCann who I thought could use a year or two in the minors to become a first line center, we gave up a second that in any other draft would be a 1st a 4th a bit over payment but that is life in the NHL to get what you want!! we get back Erik Gudbranson which we need another top 4 D man and one that is BIG a 5th round pick and with benning drafting well mightg be a decent pick!! I am happy that we now have a great D and Goalies!! now we need to round out our top 6 forwards and we will be a playoff team!!! saying this now we have to let hamhuis go or trade his rights,trade another D man (Pedan maybe) and a couple forwards Burr and Higgs I expect draft day we make a trade or two and get picks or players which benning loves to do at the draft!!! i think this year I am more excited then the last 3 to 4 years for the season to start!!!! I trust Benning and Linden the way the team is going!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phat Fingers Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 8 hours ago, elvis15 said: This. I'd be very surprised if they don't go 1-2-3 as predicted. Johansen, sure, but O'Rielly is not a Henrik-worthy heir. Horvat could be on the top line but there's a lot of room to improve in that area if he's not with two very offensive wingers. It would be very surprising indeed if the top 3 didn't go in order, but Friedman was talking about the possibility as Tkachuk has turned some heads. It would make me sick if Edmonton ended up with JP. Horvat is deffinately a work in progress. He has a lot of upside to look forward too. Quite a few posters keep referring to McCann as a the "1st line Center" of the future. I was pointing out that Horvat was already showing more potential to becoming that player, and he only has one year on McCann. No guarantee that either reach their potential, but I like Horvats odds to get there better than McCanns. O'reilly was a bit of a reach, but Horvat does compare well to both players. Hoping he becomes more like Johanson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phat Fingers Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 5 hours ago, SilentSam said: DeNiro, I too am sick and tired of the TSN journalism.. How can Yost explain Justin Schultz's turn around in Pittsburgh? Or Petrangelo's turn around in St Louis. Yost believes the Leafs will win the Cup next year on Babcock's and Lamorillo's credibility alone. But the fact remains, they took the jobs for the money going into retirement. How about the " turn around" play of some of the Leafs they traded !! Kessel, Pollak, Winnik looked great in Washington. Yost is a "milk" dud. ** ps Marner and Mathews will get pummelled like Hall, Eberle, RNH, have. Just consider the negative TSN/ Toronto media play on an offseason trade as confirmation that JB made a heck of a deal. Ever since the cup run, bashing Vancouver has become a must for out if town media, and pretty much local guys too. If the analytics guys soil themselves every time JB makes a move, then it must be a decent move. If they love the deal, then I might start to get worried. Gudbranson will have more access to player development support in Vancouver than he ever did in Florida. Wilie and Lidster must be pouring over game tape of Gudbransons play and are already thinking about ways to help him reach his potential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phat Fingers Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 5 hours ago, Goal:thecup said: Took me over a week (from May 25th) to read all of this thread, but I finally caught up, and can honestly say that I have read everybody's posts prior to this reply. Much as I wanted to keep and develop Jared McCann, I still absolutely love this trade. I cannot believe we have Erik Gudbranson. I have coveted him since his draft day. I wanted him in every trade with Florida. The exact piece we need on our eventual Cup-Winning Roster (CWR). And we now know for sure that JB is building a big, tough-to-play-against team. And we are getting younger and faster. Sure there are still holes in the CWR, it is a work-in-process. But there is no longer a hole at 2nd RHD, and Erik doesn't just fill the hole either, he is much more than that. 300 games in and just turned 24, hits like a truck, backs it, and his mates, up with his fists, and hardly takes any penalties? Are you kidding me? We turned a corner when Tryamkin showed he can make the roster. But we just blew down the highway getting Gudbranson! Also, much as I liked Mike Gillis, isn't it nice to see GMs phoning our GM up and offering deals? Unfortunately for Gillis, he did not seem to develop good working relationships around the league. JB is more like one of the boys, an honest trader, and 'one who knows what a Stanley Cup Winning Team looks like'. - (paraphrased from a quote attributed to Benning in the New Analytics vs Traditional Scouting discussion). Imo, and contrary to many on here, I do not think we need to replace McCann, or the 2nd round pick. What we did need was to acquire a player like EG, that is to say, a solid, 2RHD, young, fast, big, and developed, and there are not many (any?) out there. He does a lot more than fill that roster spot and he is going to help build respect for the Vancouver Canucks. Not only does he fill the bill, but he will help fill the building. I know a lot more of us are looking forward to watching him and the newly-firmer Canucks. We probably won't win it all this year, but we have taken massive steps forward, and JB & Co. are not finished yet. I think we will get one more high draft pick from this season's results, and remember, these high picks become high picks in every round. JB keeps filling the prospect pipeline, and the 21-26 year-old pipeline, and when a deal like this is offered, he has the assets to close the deal. When the acquisition fits the Cup-Winning Roster plan, he makes the hard decision and lets go of players like McCann and draft picks. Much as JB values draft picks and as much as JB makes the most out of every pick, he also knows that players that are ready to fill holes in the roster are more valuable than picks. Given there is always an element of uncertainty with draft picks, understandably less so of course with sure-fire picks like Ekblad or McDavid, but other than generational-type talents, and especially after the first say 10 picks, there is considerable uncertainty that any particular pick will work out "real good". 33rd overall is worth less than almost any roster player. That is also why it worked to trade for Vey, Baertschi, and (who else was it?) Etem(?), giving up 2nds for players needed on our current roster. These three helped fill in the 21-26 year-old pipeline and are available for trade if final CWR players become available. JB so far, has exercised his 1st round picks, but been willing to move later picks to get deals done. I'm not going to project what he will do this year, maybe drafting Tkachuk or Dubois, if he thinks they might fit the eventual roster, trading down, or who knows? But I didn't think we would see Reinhart traded to Edmonton, and I didn't think Boston was ever going to trade Hamilton. So I sure as shootin' didn't see us getting Eric Gudbranson. I don't know what Jim Benning is going to do next, but I love what he's done so far. This season is going to be another fun season to see it start to come together. I am looking forward to a much more physical team. Virtanen a year older, Pedan holding the 13th forward / 7th defenseman spot, Tryamkin at 2LD / 3LD, Gudbranson 2RD. Settle a few scores, gain a bit of respect in the west, and make our home ice a place NHL players no longer enjoy visiting. Yes please. And more please, Mr. Benning; keep up the real good work. Great summary. Thumbs up from me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.