[Discussion] Trade VAN-NYR - If Now Is 'The Time'

[theminister]

PREAMBLE

1. Yes, this is a thread for discussion about moving the Sedins this offseason.

2. No, this is not a thread because I want them gone, or undervalue their contribution.

3. This is a thread to discuss how, if they want to leave now, what the best course of action is for the Vancouver Canucks.

 

Please, read the whole thread before commenting.

 

 

THE TIMING

 

With two years remaining on contracts of $7.0 million each and NTCs, any potential trade involving the Sedins will be complicated with limited options. The twins would need to want to move, the acquiring team must want them, and the trade must make sense for both teams, on the roster and economically.

 

For the first time in their careers, the Sedins displayed some vocal frustration with the youth and inexperience of the team, and the losing began to show in their interviews. As we all know, the twins are consumate professionals, on and off the ice, and this uncharacteristic display may point to the suggestions that they realize the team will struggle to be competitive in the remaining years of their contract.

 

If the Sedins have decided to consider moving now, the opportunity for them to have two full seasons on a contending team would allow them enough time to legitimately compete for a Cup and provide stability for their family over that timespan. By agreeing to move now the Sedins are committing to their future team that they are 'In it to win it.'

 

 

THE TRADE

 

After reviewing the options that would be preferable to the Sedins, for which iI will detail later, the best potential and viable fit is the New York Rangers. 

 

Daniel Sedin + Henrik Sedin (33% retained for two seasons - $4.667 million combined) = $9.333 mil cap hit 

 

for

 

Rick Nash ($7.8 mil) + the rights to Eric Staal (UFA - Suggested 3 years at $6.5 mil) + Pavel Buchnevich + 3rd 2016 = $14.3 mil cap hit

 

The trade amounts to the Canucks adding $5 million in payroll, for which we have the freedom to, and the Rags buy the opportunity to gear up for another run by opening up much needed cap space.

 

 

THE SEDIN'S PERSPECTIVE

 

For the Sedins to approve of a difficult decision to move from Vancouver, the list of reasons must perfectly align with their needs as players and individuals. They are:

 

1. The opportunity to play for their old coach in AV who knows their strengths and weaknesses, and how to get the best out of their deployment.

2. The decreased travel time may allow them to be more productive and potentially extend their careers

3. The situation to be 2nd line players, out of the spotlight, behind a top line of Hayes-Stepan-Zuccarello, but with prime PP opportunity

4. Enough depth at C which allows them OZ starts, and a good mix of potential line mates.

5. To play in front of Lundqvist on a team built to win now.

6. World class city and proximity to Sweden for their family, something I don't think can be understated.

 

If they have precious few chances to compete for a Cup in their twilight years, this is the best possible team, situation, and city for them to move to. In fact, IMHO, it is the only real choice.

 

THE CANUCK'S PERSPECTIVE

 

To move the Sedins the Canucks will only be able to trade them to the perfect situation that they want and they will have limited options of locations and type of return. The Canucks will not be able to move them for draft picks and prospects only, as the acquiring team will make the dollar numbers fit and balance that against the current value of the Sedins and their contracts.

 

Trading the Sedins would be a difficult moment for the fans and management of the Canucks, as it would be a turning point for the franchise, but if the twins decide this is 'right for them' then the team needs to make the best deal they can for now and the future. For the main foci would be to:

 

1. Change the make-up of the roster

2. Get younger, faster, bigger

3. Not leave a leadership gap

4. Provide a message to the fans and players that the team is not tanking

 

The suggested trade would address all of these issues by lowering the aggregate age of the roster by approximately 9 years (36+36 to 31+32), would alter every match-up for opposing teams, and would provide a couple of future pieces.

 

 

THE RANGER'S PERSPECTIVE

 

With a tight financial situation, the Rangers are in the difficult spot of needing improve their team while also created cap space to re-sign the young RFAs. To accomplish both they will need to be creative.

 

The Rangers could be certain the players they are acquiring would the epitome of low maintenance to add to their dressing room, and the coach would be able to speak about their qualities with the utmost knowledge. If AV advocated the move, GM Jeff Gorton would need to seriously consider what potential could be worked out that improved their team while their window is open. There would no easier transition for Rangers to bring in players of this calibre than the Sedins, and they would not be expected by the fans or media to be anything other than complimentary leaders. There is great attention to the Rangers in NY but they are still far behind many other sports and the acquisition of the Sedins would not be front page news day-in and day-out. The Sedins may thrive without the added pressure both on and off the ice.

 

It has been quietly circulated in recent weeks, and I am certain we will hear more of it leading up to the draft, that the Rangers do want to move Rick Nash and his contract. Though they like him as a player and a person, Nash has never really fit in the market or the team and the Rgas would like to turn that page and move on, however with his cap hit there are precious few options of teams for them to move him too, and it would need to be a hockey trade that improves their roster. It is also widely known that NY has little interest in bringing back Eric Staal for the numbers he is asking for and do not believe he is the piece be a difference maker.

 

With Lundqvist in net, the Rangers are 'All-In' but have depleted their prospect depth, draft picks, and are tight to the Cap so they need to be creative. They cannot just spend freely in UFA and they don't have major assets to leverage as buyers. They do, however, have many positives to sell to veterans looking to move like the Sedins, and are an attractive situation. This would be a preferable situation to moving a player like Giradi, and have to pay to do so, because it also allows them to maintain depth up front and have the money to retain a key piece like Yandle.

 

The Rangers are also able to leverage the value of the rights to Staal even though they aren't going to retain him anyway.

 

Hayes-Stepan-Zuccarello

Sedin-Sedin-Kreider

Miller-Brassard-Fast

Stalberg-Moore-Linderg/Glass

 

 

THE IMPLICATIONS FOR THE CANUCKS

 

The Canucks would be taking on cap space in this deal though are able to transition some of those dollars that were used by the Sedin contracts. The added $5.0 million in cap space would not account for the bulk of available monies to be spent in 2016 and would allow them to add further pieces to the roster. This change in leadership and direction may also alter the view of UFAs, either for or against, but it would certainly alter the conversation.

 

The team would be losing two of the best players they have ever had, and two of the best people, and it would be a difficult to moment for most. The Canucks would need to be banking that Nash and Staal can recapture previous scoring, somewhat their ages allow for. With the additions of Gudbranson, Tryamkin, and others, the face of the team would shift entirely and would provide some interest in the fan base to buy tickets.

 

Both players have been captains for their teams, won internationally, and perfectly suited for the Western Conference. They would be moving to a situation that allows them to make this 'their team' and also creates a new environment for the younger players already present, and signals that this is their time to grow into leaders and no longer the Sedin's team. 

 

Baertschi-Staal-Nash

Rodin-Sutter-Etem

Burrows-Horvat-Hansen

Dorsett-Granlund-Virtanen

Vey/Gaunce

 

Edler-Tanev

Hutton-Gubranson

Sbisa-Tryamkin

Pedan/Larsen

 

Miller Markstrom

 

The above forward lines show a few things... the team will be bigger, faster, and stronger down the middle. The scoring structure of the team changes dramatically, and the need to have a player like Hansen on the top line changes. The team may still have trouble scoring but would have opportunities to grow for young players, and options to add in FA. Burrows may or may not need to be included next year but his fit displayed above shows he could be a valuable contributor in that role too. 

 

The defence could still add a FA, like Hammer or Goligoski, or there could be room to make another trade, and I would advocate investigating both.

 

The team adds Buchnevich as a scoring prospect and a pick to recoup some assets, the cost of retaining salary on the Sedins. 

 

ANTICIPATED FAQ ANSWERS

 

1. Yes, Nash and Staal would need to want to move to Vancouver, something none of us can know for sure, but an argument could be made either way. The deal would be contingent on both players agreeing, Nash to waive and Staal to sign.

2. No, I do not believe it is not viable to move the Sedins only for futures only even if we retain a full 50%, for either the Canucks or the acquiring team.

3. Yes, we would eat up some cap space for next season but would still have room to add up front or on D.

4. Yes, We are tying up future cap in some older players but we are also moving 'sideways' across the cap structure by losing two years of the Sedins. Nash also only has two years left, the same contract length, and Staal only gets the extra year, possibly another

5. The main reason for the trade is do what is best for the desires of the Sedins, while making the most out of the situation.

6. Moving them to the situation on the Rangers would be an acceptable and understandable request and move for most fans. They would not lose respect for the Sedins or their legacy in this deal.

 

SUMMARY

 

None of us can know what the mindset of the Sedins is currently yet we must consider that they are entertaining all options in their minds of what is best for their future. 

Though ending the Sedin era would be a hard bridge to cross, if they want to move, I believe the Rangers are the only viable option in the league. The management of the Canucks would have a very difficult job and would not be able to please everyone with the deal but must take the best trade they can make from the acquiring team. 

 

The Sedins have been great warriors for us, and even better citizens and leaders, but if they want to move on then we should wish them well and try to understand their needs and desires. As fans, as we could hope that AV can get them a Cup, while we change the perception of the make-up and attitude of the team going forward.

 

 

[Blue Jay 22]

I understand the idea of trading the Sedins (Even though I hate it)

 

What I don't understand is why they would be traded for 2 guys like Staal and Nash. Yes we get a top 20 prospect back in Buchnevich, but isn't the whole point of trading the Sedins is to rebuild and get younger? We are going to suck if/when we trade them so if we are going to suck, we might as well do it properly and get young assets back, as opposed to 30+ year old guys who are declining harder than the Sedins.

 

In short, we are replacing the twins with worse options, and really only gaining 1 prospect out of it. This is one of the more thought out proposals that I have seen on here, and I do think you deserve credit for that. I just think There are better trading partners out there.

[oldnews]

[theminister]

5 minutes ago, Blue Jay 22 said:

I understand the idea of trading the Sedins (Even though I hate it)

 

What I don't understand is why they would be traded for 2 guys like Staal and Nash. Yes we get a top 20 prospect back in Buchnevich, but isn't the whole point of trading the Sedins is to rebuild and get younger? We are going to suck if/when we trade them so if we are going to suck, we might as well do it properly and get young assets back, as opposed to 30+ year old guys who are declining harder than the Sedins.

 

In short, we are replacing the twins with worse options, and really only gaining 1 prospect out of it. This is one of the more thought out proposals that I have seen on here, and I do think you deserve credit for that. I just think There are better trading partners out there.

What other trading partners do you see the Sedins being willing to go to? IMHO, there are none that would be preferable to them and be enough of an argument to move.

 

I think that the reality of the situation must be faced... the Sedins are not going to return only young prospects/players and draft picks. That's not how the situation works in today's NHL if you are attempting to move $14 million players. As there will be only 1 or 2 teams they might consider, the Canucks management would need to work with the teams to make a fit that is acceptable to both.

 

This trade does get the Canucks younger though not at a breakneck pace. it does buy them years though and does return some future assets. To expect us to be able to accomplish all of the needs/desires of the teams/players involved is a complicated situation, and we must try to gauge what the market would be.

[Alflives]

I understand your post, and the concept.  (It's a very well thought out post.  

 

I have only only one Question?  Are the Twins better players at 36 than Staal and Nash at 31?  

[ken kaniff]

If St.Louis decides to let Backes walk they could use the Sedin's. We can get some good young guys out of them 

 

NYI are going hard after Stamkos if they miss out on him they could possibly be interested in the Sedin's. 

 

That's all I think really make sense rn. Can't think of why other teams would need the Sedin's 

[theminister]

3 minutes ago, ken kaniff said:

If St.Louis decides to let Backes walk they could use the Sedin's. We can get some good young guys out of them 

 

NYI are going hard after Stamkos if they miss out on him they could possibly be interested in the Sedin's. 

 

That's all I think really make sense rn. Can't think of why other teams would need the Sedin's 

I'm not convinced that S Louis would be a preferable option for the Sedins to move to. I'm also not sure how they could make the dollars fit and return better assets for the Canucks. They also have significant questions in net and on the bench with Hitch's contract being up.... certainly not enough for it to as good of a fit as the Rags.

 

The Isles were a team to consider, and I did, but none of the factors mentioned above make them preferable to the Sedins, certainly not the coach or in net.... the same problem with St Louis.

[Bur14Kes17]

Nash and Staal are $&!#.... I mean, Nash has zero heart and is a perimeter player and Staal is closer to a 3rd line center now...

[ken kaniff]

Yeah also Nash and Staal are deuce like Bur14kes17 said

[theminister]

1 minute ago, Bur14Kes17 said:

Nash and Staal are $&!#.... I mean, Nash has zero heart and is a perimeter player and Staal is closer to a 3rd line center now...

Disagree.

 

And we are dealing with a situation where the Sedins ask to be moved and only name 1 or two teams.... if you think the return would be different or better... I'd like to hear how.

 

The proposed deal is to meet the needs of all parties involved.... the Canucks would need to make the most out of a hard situation.... it may not be ideal but it may also be the best we could expect.

[shazzam]

If we move the Sedins, it better set us up nicely in the future. We might take some cap dump but we need plenty of picks and prospects. 

[theminister]

Just now, ken kaniff said:

Yeah also Nash and Staal are deuce like Bur14kes17 said

Nash scored 42 goals a year ago. Stall was getting stale on that team in Carolina. We would need to be banking that we could get some good play out of them in the coming years, sure, but they are far from trash.

 

I also think you need to consider what the trade value of the Sedin's would be in this situation. It's not as much as many would like to think IMO.

[theminister]

1 minute ago, shazzam said:

If we move the Sedins, it better set us up nicely in the future. We might take some cap dump but we need plenty of picks and prospects. 

I don't think that trade would exist.

 

If the Sedins ASK for a move and provide limited options... we aren't getting the farm of another team. The most we could hope for would be useful NHL players and a couple of pieces.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

23 minutes ago, theminister said:

What other trading partners do you see the Sedins being willing to go to? IMHO, there are none that would be preferable to them and be enough of an argument to move.

 

I think that the reality of the situation must be faced... the Sedins are not going to return only young prospects/players and draft picks. That's not how the situation works in today's NHL if you are attempting to move $14 million players. As there will be only 1 or 2 teams they might consider, the Canucks management would need to work with the teams to make a fit that is acceptable to both.

 

This trade does get the Canucks younger though not at a breakneck pace. it does buy them years though and does return some future assets. To expect us to be able to accomplish all of the needs/desires of the teams/players involved is a complicated situation, and we must try to gauge what the market would be.

There isn't and that precisely why they will never be moved..  It's a very well thought out and put together proposal, but if anything it just verifies even more why the twins will retire as members of Canucks.  

[Bur14Kes17]

5 minutes ago, theminister said:

Disagree.

 

And we are dealing with a situation where the Sedins ask to be moved and only name 1 or two teams.... if you think the return would be different or better... I'd like to hear how.

 

The proposed deal is to meet the needs of all parties involved.... the Canucks would need to make the most out of a hard situation.... it may not be ideal but it may also be the best we could expect.

You can disagree all you want but it doesn't change the fact that everyone here still thinks  it's a terrible deal and that Nash has zero heart and Staal just isn't what he used to be. He's been on a consistent decline for the past 5 seasons. 

This deal doesn't meet any of the Canucks needs. The Canucks are not in a hard situation with the Sedins contracts.  The Sedins will likely retire as Canucks and are the best players out there to mentor our next core. 

I appreciate the work you put into your thread, it's just Nash and Staal are no where near what they use to be.

[theminister]

Just now, ForsbergTheGreat said:

There isn't and that precisely why they will never be moved..  It's a very well thought out and put together proposal, but if anything it just verifies even more why the twins will retire as members of Canucks.  

Maybe... but if there is a deal to the Rags that would work for all parties... I could see it happen.

 

The reasons for the Sedins would be the deciding factor.

 

[Kaner]

Very well thought out, and I agree with most of it.

 

The reality is, that if the Sedins ask for a move, there will only be 1-3 possible suitors. It will be the exactly like the Kesler fiasco all over again. If a team knows that your player has asked for a trade, you won't get full value, and you're at a disadvantage.

[shazzam]

3 minutes ago, theminister said:

I don't think that trade would exist.

 

If the Sedins ASK for a move and provide limited options... we aren't getting the farm of another team. The most we could hope for would be useful NHL players and a couple of pieces.

Well they aren't asking for a move. I much rather let their contracts expire than take on Rick Nash and Eric "I don't care anymore' Staal

[theminister]

4 minutes ago, Bur14Kes17 said:

You can disagree all you want but it doesn't change the fact that everyone here still thinks  it's a terrible deal and that Nash has zero heart and Staal just isn't what he used to be. He's been on a consistent decline for the past 5 seasons. 

This deal doesn't meet any of the Canucks needs. The Canucks are not in a hard situation with the Sedins contracts.  The Sedins will likely retire as Canucks and are the best players out there to mentor our next core. 

I appreciate the work you put into your thread, it's just Nash and Staal are no where near what they use to be.

I think you are missing the point of the post... this is if the Sedins decide that now is the time... the Canucks would work to make that happen. 

 

A 'Terrible deal' as you put it may all we are able to get.

 

[theminister]

Just now, shazzam said:

Well they aren't asking for a move. I much rather let their contracts expire than take on Rick Nash and Eric "I don't care anymore' Staal

It's a hypothetical situation, yes. It's also far from impossible. 

 

My main point was that if they ASK to move and the Rangers are the team they want, this is the type of return we could/should expect.

 

If they ASK we will abide.