Bo Horvat | #53 | C

[RunningWild]

The only word I could see is exactly

It's a good word, I'm glad you can see it.

Which have been the others?

There have been many IMO, Linden hiring, food/concession changes, Gillis firing etc.

[Guest Dasein]

And my point was that he earned it.

And It was 6 ozone draws: Link Also my #'s aren't off, it's called rounding. He took 14 D zone draws, won 9.

Of course Horvat isn't taking the # of draws the other centres are - cause he wasn't given the opportunity. Which was my point. So what you evaluate is what you have, small sample sizes.

How does his corsi have do with him not getting TOI in the certain periods, or when game his close? His corsi rel is good, that would indicate they would want/need him in those situations. But they don't, which was my point.

You are assuming his SA/60 will go up if his TOI does. There's no indicator of that, that's just a guess. is SA/60 is relative to teams TOI. We won't know unless we see him play more. So perhaps you are fooling yourself into believing your assumptions are fact.

Plenty of prospects get decent line mates, even on 9 game tryouts. Draisaitl in EDM is a good example for this season (Perron,Purcell are his most common linemates. It's not even an argument that's players line mates influence their play/advanced stats. All you have to do is take a look at WOWYs.

I am not making any assumptions. There are advanced stats websites, which I've used to provide the data. I've voiced my opinion about how he's being treated despite a good showing in 5 games.

We all realize he's only played 5 hockey games thus far, which I outlined above.

You can talk about what you 'think' is going on in Wilies mind. That's fine, but that's more assumption than anything I've written. I was simply posting some facts about Horvats play this far, relaying that they are good #'s and wondering why they aren't using him. Given the dog and pony show this summer about doing everything to make the fans happy, I assumed they were giving Horvat 9 games as apart of that. Cause it they were serious, his early #'s would indicate he's ready for more opportunity.

Vs COL - Off (1/1) Def (4/5) http://www.nhl.com/scores/htmlreports/20142015/FS020182.HTM

Vs SJS - Off (0/1) Def (0/1) http://www.nhl.com/scores/htmlreports/20142015/FS020196.HTM

Vs LAK - Off (0/0) Def (4/6) http://www.nhl.com/scores/htmlreports/20142015/FS020213.HTM

Vs ANA - Off (2/2) Def (1/2) http://www.nhl.com/scores/htmlreports/20142015/FS020217.HTM

Vs OTT - Off (0/4) Def (1/2) http://www.nhl.com/scores/htmlreports/20142015/FS020230.HTM

According to NHL faceoff summary. Add'em up big boy. 8 o-zone faceoffs and 16 d-zone faceoffs.

He hasn't earned jack with his play - the sample size is way too small to make an argument one way or the other.

I made an argument saying you made a whole bunch of assumptions - you seem to make an argument that I am making a whole bunch of assumptions as well. Yup. We are both looking at the same facts and coming up with two very different conclusions - that's because the sample size is insufficient to make any one of our claims come true. That's my point.

You are making assumptions:

The data is factual (well - the faceoff data is wrong so who knows how credible the other numbers are, but we'll look past that for now). What you say the data indicates is your opinion about what you think these stats mean. When you make a claim about what a fact means, you are assuming something additional to the fact (data) to be the case - ex. that you're opinion is also a fact. So don't tell me you are giving the facts - you're just giving your opinion about the facts.

Other points:

Draisaitl in EDM is a good example? You want to cite EDM as a good example of developing young players? EDM doesn't have NHL calibre centers after RNH so they put a high-profile kid on the 2nd line by default. Does 2G3A5P in 17GP look like a 2nd line center who deserves his minutes to you? Look at where EDM is in the standings and look where VAN is.

Yes, for sure what I've said about practice is 100% assumption. But tell me. Honestly. Do you not think that, if Bo was outplaying any one of Henrik, Bonino or Richardson (our top 9 centers) on a consistent basis during practice for the past two weeks, that Willie Desjardins would at least try him one game in the top 9? Does that seem like a real stretch to you?

Well, that was an assumption based on one fact:

That you and I watch only the games to measure Bo's performance,

While WD watches the games and practices to measure Bo's performance.

Just like your opinions made assumptions based on facts from Behindthenet.

Edited November 14, 2014 by Dasein

[Mr.53]

I like the idea of trying and groom Vey and Horvat together if he stays. Their styles seem pretty complementary and they can start developing chemistry immediately.

[aGENT]

Err or

Edited November 14, 2014 by J.R.

[Guest Dasein]

Eventually one if not two players on this roster will have moved next year. Our young players will be knocking on the doorstep.

But JB is not going to leave those holes open for the young guys to just waltz into. We saw him sign Miller in the off-season when Lack looked to have a clear path to the #1 spot and Markstrom the #2 spot. We signed Vrbata in the off-season that pushed Kassian back into a 3rd line role.

Similarly, I expect JB to fill the holes with veterans if he doesn't re-sign a forward or two. There are quite a few quality bottom 6 centers in the UFA market next season. Bo should have just as stiff a competition as he did this year to make the team if he doesn't make it this year.

[avelanch]

Can anyone comment as to a scenario where we keep him up the full year, thus burning a year off his ELC followed by sending him down to the AHL the following year? Will he have to clear waivers and if he is playing the second year in the AHL does that also burn an additional year off his ELC?

as soon as his contract uses up a year it can no longer be deferred and will continue to use up years no matter where he plays, even if he were to be sent back to the chl as an overager for some reason.

[aGENT]

I fail to see how Horvat is our best option when what he does could be easily replaced with Lain at this point.

Vey is a -3, but Richardson is -6, Hansen -5, Kassian -4, Dorsett -2, and Matthias -10. DeFazio, Jensen and Horvat are +/-0. Tom Sestito is a +1. Our regular bottom 6 forwards gets scored on, yes. What's your point?

We do have more than Richardson for the defensive zone faceoffs. Henrik and Bonino take a bulk of them as well. Horvat taking 10 draws overall isn't going to free them up all that much.

-Lain is bigger than Horvat, that's about it. He's also far less likely to improve at the pace Horvat will (and IMO isn't at his level of hockey IQ).

-My point is that Horvat doesn't get scored on. Kind of key.

-Using Henrik/Bonino for d-zone draws is not the best use of their talents. Torts, is that you?

Lastly, you are making all these assumptions based on limited game action and interpreting statistics positively to construct your view even though the sample size is clearly too small to make an argument for one way or another.

That argument works both ways

Basically we have a glass half full or half empty scenario. I personally think he's shown enough with limited minutes, little o-zone starts and rotating (and recently AHL quality) wingers no less. Despite what you seem to think and a lack of actual points (so far), he's created offense despite those hindrances (or lack so far of actual point production). He's shown IMO that point production should come with more time and more consistent line mates. You evidently disagree, though I can't really see why.

If nothing else, Bo should IMO remain up to keep pushing Matthias, Vey and to a lesser extent, Richardson. I personally don't think it's any coincidence Matthias' play picked up when Bo was set to return...

Edited November 14, 2014 by J.R.

[Nuxfanabroad]

Agreed, keep Horvat up, based on play, thus far.

[I.Am.Ironman]

But JB is not going to leave those holes open for the young guys to just waltz into. We saw him sign Miller in the off-season when Lack looked to have a clear path to the #1 spot and Markstrom the #2 spot. We signed Vrbata in the off-season that pushed Kassian back into a 3rd line role.

Similarly, I expect JB to fill the holes with veterans if he doesn't re-sign a forward or two. There are quite a few quality bottom 6 centers in the UFA market next season. Bo should have just as stiff a competition as he did this year to make the team if he doesn't make it this year.

We will likely be contributing 1 or 2 players to that market in Mathias and RIchardson... On a side note do you think Was re-ups Mike Green or do you think he goes to FA?

A few big potential names hit te market next year.. Spezza, Green.. I would consider going after Stewart for the right price as well. He would be an upgrade over Mathias.. And I am actually one of the few that think Mathias has something to contribute to this team

[Guest Dasein]

-Lain is bigger than Horvat, that's about it. He's also far less likely to improve at the pace Horvat will (and IMO isn't at his level of hockey IQ).

-My point is that Horvat doesn't get scored on. Kind of key.

-Using Henrik/Bonino for d-zone draws is not the best use of their talents. Torts, is that you?

That argument works both ways

Basically we have a glass half full or half empty scenario. I personally think he's shown enough with limited minutes, little o-zone starts and rotating (and recently AHL quality) wingers no less. Despite what you seem to think and a lack of actual points (so far), he's created offense despite those hindrances (or lack so far of actual point production). He's shown IMO that point production should come with more time and more consistent line mates. You evidently disagree, though I can't really see why.

If nothing else, Bo should IMO remain up to keep pushing Matthias, Vey and to a lesser extent, Richardson. I personally don't think it's any coincidence Matthias' play picked up when Bo was set to return...

Definitely - like I mentioned in the post in response to RunningWild above, if you saw it. We're both assuming a lot of things from the same statistics - glass half full or half empty sounds about right.

That being said, WD is not Torts, but he is not AV either. Everyone has a strong reaction against what Torts did last year, but the only significant difference between Torts and WD in their deployment of the Sedins is that WD manages their minutes. For example, WD still plays the Sedins on the PK (like Torts - but not as much - 1:04 and 0:54 per game for Hank and Dank, respectively so that they don't sit there getting cold like they used to under AV) and give them quite a few defensive zone starts when plays dictates that.

You can catch WD explain how he deploys the Sedins here: http://youtu.be/vOUsO0MkNwA?t=1m7s

Basically, depending on the matchup, there will be nights where the Sedins take more defensive zone draws than offensive zone (ex. vs SJS where Henrik took 12 in the d-zone and only 4 in the o-zone) - and the same goes for Bonino. So in that sense, WD's closer to Torts than AV. In the minute managing, he's much closer to AV than Torts. So WD is kind of in between the two - he expects his players to be good in both ends of the ice and deploys them that way - except he makes sure they are fresh by managing their minutes.

I don't know about Bo staying just to push Matthias, Vey and etc. Honestly, if they struggle, WD will pull the plug and play whoever is in the press box. As for Matthias, it was coincidence IMO - the guy is just a slow starter

Vancouver CanucksVerified account‏@VanCanucks

"Three years in a row I've scored my first goal of the year in the 13th game" - @ShawnMatthias #Canucks

https://twitter.com/VanCanucks/status/529855716870594560

Edited November 14, 2014 by Dasein

[Guest Dasein]

We will likely be contributing 1 or 2 players to that market in Mathias and RIchardson... On a side note do you think Was re-ups Mike Green or do you think he goes to FA?

A few big potential names hit te market next year.. Spezza, Green.. I would consider going after Stewart for the right price as well. He would be an upgrade over Mathias.. And I am actually one of the few that think Mathias has something to contribute to this team

I think we re-up on one of Matthias or Richardson. I think it'll be Matthias and we'll look to Bo Horvat and UFA market to fill the void of Richardson.

Regarding Green - I don't know - personally I think they should. But I also think they should not have signed Niskanen and Orpik to those big contracts, which might force their hands on Green. That should be a trade deadline decision - they probably don't want to lose Green for nothing.

I think Spezza might stay in DAL unless he strongly wants to move back east, as it seems like a good fit for him behind Benn at this stage of his career. I love Chris Stewart's potential, but the guy is just such an enigma. The right price would have to be pretty low for him, but I think another team would overpay for his potential.

[snizzle_]

Free Agency is a sellers market, they hold the bargaining power and therefore prices for UFAs are always outrageous. It is very rare, with exception to a few, that a contending team is built through free agency in a Salary Cap world. A contender has to be build through the draft and the use of ELC's. The Vrbata and Miller deals are placeholders while we develop our young talent, and are I hope they are the only big contracts we dish our in Free Agency in the coming years.

Competition is good, but you need to give your prospects a chance for the sake of the Salary Cap. The only big name free agent that is on a contending team right now that I can think of is Marian Hossa, and I believe he took a pay cut to play in Chicago. We need to develop our core around our new young prospects and bring in veteran free agents as complementary players, no center pieces and preferably on discount deals because they want to play on a up and coming team.

Horvat, Shinkaruk, Virtanen, McCann, and Gaunce are all good prospects that need to prove themselves. They are already trying to differentiate themselves from their peers and each other, why create added adversity by bringing in more veterans and telling them to beat out veterans. As a GM, it makes sense, but as a Coach it doesn't. In the end, a coach will rely on that veteran more time than not in key situations regardless of the potential of that prospect or how he's playing, because the coach is supposed to thing short term; win the game.

We need our prospects to play and play in key situations for them to develop. I'm not against competition by any means but it's hard to compete against a veteran because of the stigma around the game of hockey.

Edited November 14, 2014 by junglesniper

[Robongo]

I think we re-up on one of Matthias or Richardson. I think it'll be Matthias and we'll look to Bo Horvat and UFA market to fill the void of Richardson.

Regarding Green - I don't know - personally I think they should. But I also think they should not have signed Niskanen and Orpik to those big contracts, which might force their hands on Green. That should be a trade deadline decision - they probably don't want to lose Green for nothing.

I think Spezza might stay in DAL unless he strongly wants to move back east, as it seems like a good fit for him behind Benn at this stage of his career. I love Chris Stewart's potential, but the guy is just such an enigma. The right price would have to be pretty low for him, but I think another team would overpay for his potential.

If we resign anyone, it's probably Richardson. However, I doubt we resign either of them. Jensen will be ready for full time duty next year, as will Bo and maybe even Gaunce/Kenins.

[VegasCanuck]

Unless we run into a bunch of injuries in the next couple of weeks, I have a feeling that Bo will be loaned to the WJC.

I don't think they want to send him back to junior this year as. There's not a lot he can really learn, playing games against players where 80 - 90% of them will never play a game in the NHL.

WJC is completely different. You have the top Junior players in the world, and you would expect that about 80% of the players in that tournament will, at some point, play in the NHL. That gives him a whole different range of competition, and in January, when we usually start dealing with injuries, they can just pull him back into the lineup.

I could easily be wrong, but I think that's the general plan for him this year.

[I.Am.Ironman]

Unless we run into a bunch of injuries in the next couple of weeks, I have a feeling that Bo will be loaned to the WJC.

I don't think they want to send him back to junior this year as. There's not a lot he can really learn, playing games against players where 80 - 90% of them will never play a game in the NHL.

WJC is completely different. You have the top Junior players in the world, and you would expect that about 80% of the players in that tournament will, at some point, play in the NHL. That gives him a whole different range of competition, and in January, when we usually start dealing with injuries, they can just pull him back into the lineup.

I could easily be wrong, but I think that's the general plan for him this year.

I think the general [CDC] consensus is that they plan to give Bo his 9 games then lend him to WJC then send him down but I don't think the numbers will quite work out that way. Bo has 4 or 5 games remaining out of his 9 and the tournament starts in 8 weeks. That is a long time to stretch out 5 games. The decision on Bo will come before the WJC

[RunningWild]

Vs COL - Off (1/1) Def (4/5) http://www.nhl.com/scores/htmlreports/20142015/FS020182.HTM

Vs SJS - Off (0/1) Def (0/1) http://www.nhl.com/scores/htmlreports/20142015/FS020196.HTM

Vs LAK - Off (0/0) Def (4/6) http://www.nhl.com/scores/htmlreports/20142015/FS020213.HTM

Vs ANA - Off (2/2) Def (1/2) http://www.nhl.com/scores/htmlreports/20142015/FS020217.HTM

Vs OTT - Off (0/4) Def (1/2) http://www.nhl.com/scores/htmlreports/20142015/FS020230.HTM

According to NHL faceoff summary. Add'em up big boy. 8 o-zone faceoffs and 16 d-zone faceoffs.

He hasn't earned jack with his play - the sample size is way too small to make an argument one way or the other.

I made an argument saying you made a whole bunch of assumptions - you seem to make an argument that I am making a whole bunch of assumptions as well. Yup. We are both looking at the same facts and coming up with two very different conclusions - that's because the sample size is insufficient to make any one of our claims come true. That's my point.

You are making assumptions:

The data is factual (well - the faceoff data is wrong so who knows how credible the other numbers are, but we'll look past that for now). What you say the data indicates is your opinion about what you think these stats mean. When you make a claim about what a fact means, you are assuming something additional to the fact (data) to be the case - ex. that you're opinion is also a fact. So don't tell me you are giving the facts - you're just giving your opinion about the facts.

Other points:

Draisaitl in EDM is a good example? You want to cite EDM as a good example of developing young players? EDM doesn't have NHL calibre centers after RNH so they put a high-profile kid on the 2nd line by default. Does 2G3A5P in 17GP look like a 2nd line center who deserves his minutes to you? Look at where EDM is in the standings and look where VAN is.

Yes, for sure what I've said about practice is 100% assumption. But tell me. Honestly. Do you not think that, if Bo was outplaying any one of Henrik, Bonino or Richardson (our top 9 centers) on a consistent basis during practice for the past two weeks, that Willie Desjardins would at least try him one game in the top 9? Does that seem like a real stretch to you?

Well, that was an assumption based on one fact:

That you and I watch only the games to measure Bo's performance,

While WD watches the games and practices to measure Bo's performance.

Just like your opinions made assumptions based on facts from Behindthenet.

"Add em up big boy", mmm kay. I can see what type of person I'm dealing with here.

I prefer to get #'s the advanced stats websites. I linked them in my previous post. Therefore, the #'s are accurate. NHL use these site as well.

I 'm also not sure how you can make assumptions based on a players advanced stats. The #'s are concrete. Either he was on the ice for 'x' shots against or he hasn't Either he was on the ice for 'x' goals against, or he wasn't. These are called facts, which as I've already stated have been collected by Behind the Net (a website which man NHLteams use):

- He's played more than 9 min TOI in exactly 1 game this yr. Been given exactly 2 seconds of PP time, 1:40 of PK time.

- He's taken 52 face-offs - exactly 6 of them while starting in the offensive zone. And won 65% of the defensive zone draws he's taken....... which by the way is the best % of any Canucks centre by a country mile.

- He's been on the ice for exactly 1 goal against.

- He has the 6th best corsi relative to his teammates (forwards only), despite starting the 'team lowest' 33% of his shifts in the offensive zone.

- He's been given, by far, the worst wingers on the team every single game.

- Only Vrbata, Hank and Dank have fewer shots against/per ice time. *Keep in mind those 3 players start 55+% of shifts startin in the ozone. Horvat is 33%*

Please explain how any of the above is my assumption.

Also, did I say EDM was a good example of developing prospects? Answer: No. You are trying to twist this my post into something that works for some new argument you're trying to make. Refer to my original post for my statement, which is also a fact. His most common line mates were better than Horvats line mates (via advanced stats). And players line mates do influence their play and #'s, refer to any WOWY (which are also facts cause they are hard #"s);

I have zero idea what's in Willis mind, I never met the guy. So I'm not going to speak to what he would or would not do re: Bo in practice.

Edited November 14, 2014 by RunningWild

[Off_The_Schneid!]

I like Bo on the canucks

Adds a level of depth we've been lacking past years

I say burn the year of his elc, whatever it won't be a big deal long term because he's not that type of player or person that demands a ton of money

Without Bo we would prob have to sign another center

It has worked out well having Bo with all these injuries the team hasn't lost a beat.

He's only going to get better as the year goes on and when it comes down to it I think he makes the canucks a better team

That should be the deciding factor in keeping any player

[73 Percent]

I like Bo on the canucks

Adds a level of depth we've been lacking past years

I say burn the year of his elc, whatever it won't be a big deal long term because he's not that type of player or person that demands a ton of money

Without Bo we would prob have to sign another center

It has worked out well having Bo with all these injuries the team hasn't lost a beat.

He's only going to get better as the year goes on and when it comes down to it I think he makes the canucks a better team

That should be the deciding factor in keeping any player

I do to I'd like to see him log more than 6 mins though

You have no idea what kind of person he is. Dont pretend like hes your brother. Hes a professional athletelooking to get paid.

Hank

bonino

vey

Richardson

Last time i checked 4 lines makes a forward group so no we wouldn't need to sign another center.

WD Linden amd beginning will be the deciding factors. Not anything you make up.

[I.Am.Ironman]

I like Bo on the canucks

Adds a level of depth we've been lacking past years

I say burn the year of his elc, whatever it won't be a big deal long term because he's not that type of player or person that demands a ton of money

Without Bo we would prob have to sign another center

It has worked out well having Bo with all these injuries the team hasn't lost a beat.

He's only going to get better as the year goes on and when it comes down to it I think he makes the canucks a better team

That should be the deciding factor in keeping any player

It's not like he could demand a ton of money anyway.. Defensive centers with 0's across the board don't break the bank.

[Guest Dasein]

"Add em up big boy", mmm kay. I can see what type of person I'm dealing with here.

I prefer to get #'s the advanced stats websites. I linked them in my previous post. Therefore, the #'s are accurate. NHL use these site as well.

I 'm also not sure how you can make assumptions based on a players advanced stats. The #'s are concrete. Either he was on the ice for 'x' shots against or he hasn't Either he was on the ice for 'x' goals against, or he wasn't. These are called facts, which as I've already stated have been collected by Behind the Net (a website which man NHLteams use):

Please explain how any of the above is my assumption.

Also, did I say EDM was a good example of developing prospects? Answer: No. You are trying to twist this my post into something that works for some new argument you're trying to make. Refer to my original post for my statement, which is also a fact. His most common line mates were better than Horvats line mates (via advanced stats). And players line mates do influence their play and #'s, refer to any WOWY (which are also facts cause they are hard #"s);

I have zero idea what's in Willis mind, I never met the guy. So I'm not going to speak to what he would or would not do re: Bo in practice.

I provide the official faceoff summary from the NHL that have the faceoff stats for Bo which differ from your advanced stats website count. However, you prefer to get numbers from the advanced stats website, and therefore you claim that they are accurate. Hmm. I see what kind of a person I'm dealing with here as well, so I won't bother responding regarding this subject after this.

The above you indicate are indeed facts.

I'm not sure how anyone could say "he was given every opportunity with the Canucks in this 5 game try out. It's hogwash anyway you look at it. He was not given a chance, period.

[The Facts]

This is exactly the type of player that has earned more ice time. You couldn't write the script better. Yet after his best game of the season against the defending Cup champions, he's been given less than 8 min each of the last 2 games. And been demoted to the 4th line with scrubs.

They've in now way given him any type of opportunity to succeed, other than placing his nameplate in the locker room. I honestly believe this is another horse and pony show from the Canucks brass to make the fan base happy, "give the top prospect a few games to make the fans happy". There's no other way to explain the way they're using (or not using him). I won't explain in detail how he's currently a better option than Richardson or Matthias (cause he is an the #'s prove it). But I will say, send him back to Jr. where he can play big minutes instead of being wasted in Van and being trotted out as a prize to the fan base.

The rest are assumptions surrounding the facts.

Edited November 14, 2014 by Dasein