Plum Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 I'm not trying to get down but I don't really see his offensive game rising to a 2nd line player, I want him to try and be an offensive beast. Domi had a better PPG than Horvat in the last 2 years, Rychel had a better 13/14 year. If he's isn't scoring 40+ goals on the first line in his first year that trade was a fail!! Derp. I said that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avelanch Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 (edited) I'm not trying to get down but I don't really see his offensive game rising to a 2nd line player, I want him to try and be an offensive beast. Domi had a better PPG than Horvat in the last 2 years, Rychel had a better 13/14 year. I said that? hyperbole, but you DID say If Horvat is not more than a top 6 player than our pick was a fail. more than a top 6, meaning... what? top 5? the common nomenclature is top 3 (first liner) top 6 (second liner with potential to move up every now and then), or top 9 (ability to move around on the first three lines, but usually on the third). there's also bottom three and bottom six... maybe you meant more than a bottom 6 player? Edited July 28, 2014 by avelanch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plum Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 hyperbole, but you DID say more than a top 6, meaning... what? top 5? I was talking about his whole career not one season. If he's going to be a 3rd liner it's a fail of a pick, he has the potential to be more but people are getting more and more satisfied with him becoming a 3rd liner because we have McCann, Virtanen that were just drafted and a potential 2015 high 1st rounder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRAZY_4_NAZZY Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 I'm more comfortable him being insulated on the 4th line playing 10-12 minutes a night and let him make his way up the lineup. Coming right into the NHL and depended upon as a shutdown center to the likes of Getzlaf, Thornton, Kopitar is quite a tall task to ask of a 19 year old who has not played a wink in the NHL. Although he did step into a shutdown role in London at the age of 17 when most of those roles are reserved for 19 year olds. So he has always been ahead of his maturity. But the NHL is a different beast in itself, and I feel that Horvat starting on the fourth line and working his way up the depth chart is better for him. Horvat-Richardson-Dorsett I think would be a competent line and Bo would learn quite a bit from these two vets. Rich and him can switch in and out every so often in the center position. Not saying Horvat isn't capable of being a third line center right away, but its always better allowing players to play less and make them work their way up instead of throwing them to the wolves right away. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avelanch Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 (edited) I was talking about his whole career not one season. If he's going to be a 3rd liner it's a fail of a pick, he has the potential to be more but people are getting more and more satisfied with him becoming a 3rd liner because we have McCann, Virtanen that were just drafted and a potential 2015 high 1st rounder. most people are saying 3rd liner for gaunce, not horvat. also we were saying horvat slotting into the lineup this season in the third, not him becoming a permanent 3rd. you were the one who started on him being developed into a "career thrid liner" in the middle of that. Edited July 28, 2014 by avelanch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plum Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 most people are saying 3rd liner for gaunce, not horvat. But people are laying off Horvat because we have more high end prospects. Last year alot of posters slotted him on the 1st line looking at a "prospect line-up" but now posters put McCann there so the expectations for Horvat have laid off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avelanch Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 But people are laying off Horvat because we have more high end prospects. Last year alot of posters slotted him on the 1st line looking at a "prospect line-up" but now posters put McCann there so the expectations for Horvat have laid off. well of course expectations change when you add new data points into a data set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N4ZZY Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Starting out on the third line is not the same as having a third line ceiling. He's not likely going to be a 60 point 2 way, second line C overnight. that's right. i remember kesler started off as a third line guy, didn't he? and burr started off on the fourth line early in his career, before having the opportunity and chance to develop and play on a top six role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rollieo Del Fuego Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 I'm not trying to get down but I don't really see his offensive game rising to a 2nd line player, I want him to try and be an offensive beast. Domi had a better PPG than Horvat in the last 2 years, Rychel had a better 13/14 year. I said that? Domi is a one dimensional offensive player. Rychel is just not as good as Horvat at anything except skating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 I was talking about his whole career not one season. If he's going to be a 3rd liner it's a fail of a pick, he has the potential to be more but people are getting more and more satisfied with him becoming a 3rd liner because we have McCann, Virtanen that were just drafted and a potential 2015 high 1st rounder. most people are saying 3rd liner for gaunce, not horvat. also we were saying horvat slotting into the lineup this season in the third, not him becoming a permanent 3rd. you were the one who started on him being developed into a "career thrid liner" in the middle of that. Who are these people that are "satisfied"? I've seen more people on here overestimating Horvat's immediate abilities and slotting him in as THIS years 2C than settling for him as a career 3rd liner. As Avelanch mentioned...you're the only person in here that brought it up. He'll start out on the third (heck maybe even 4th) line, maybe even at wing (with less responsibility) and learn the NHL game, pace etc how to check, take faceoffs etc against men and slowly develop from there. From there his offense will slowly come over the next couple years from making good, smart plays and his natural, developing and existing skill set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rollieo Del Fuego Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 He will still have to beat out (tie goes to the young guy is what Benning said) Richardson or Vey or a bottom 6 guy just to get a shot this year. If his skating has improved he will make it close at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N4ZZY Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Domi is a one dimensional offensive player. Rychel is just not as good as Horvat at anything except skating. I guess we'll see. Horvat seems like the more 'complete' player out of the two that you've mentioned. But they are different players. Horvat is projected to be a shutdown, two-way, top six player. Don't know about Rychel. Domi is supposed to be a more offensive top six threat. And Domi's offensive ceiling, probably higher than Horvat's, to be honest. I see Horvat being a 20 goal scorer in the league, 40-50 assist kind of guy. Domi, probably a lot more offensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbadcanucks Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Horvat was one of the best two-way junior players in the country this past season. IMO, he and Gaunce play a "pro-ready" game and are physically mature enough for the pro ranks. What both players need is to be able to translate that game at the professional level. Whether that happens this year or next or the year after will be predicated by their ability to adapt to the speed of the NHL. I like that both Horvat and Guance can move between center and LW, which provides them additional opportunity to make the big club. As it is right now, at center, Horvat is behind Hank, Bonino, Vey, Matthias and Richardson; at LW Horvat is behind Daniel, Burrows, Higgins, Matthias and Richardson (I won't include Sestito since he has a specific role that only he can fulfill at this time). The realistic place for Horvat, if he makes the club, will be fourth line center or fourth line LW. In this role, there's nothing wrong with him playing 9 to 11 minutes per game to get adjusted to the NHL speed. IMO, in time, Horvat will be a solid second or third line center for the Canucks. Last time I checked, you have to be a pretty darn good hockey player to fulfill this role in the NHL. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 (edited) As it is right now, at center, Horvat is behind Hank, Bonino, Vey, Matthias and Richardson; at LW Horvat is behind Daniel, Burrows, Higgins, Matthias and Richardson (I won't include Sestito since he has a specific role that only he can fulfill at this time). On LW if he does manage to displace Matthias, we simply slide Matthias down and Sestito out. Otherwise he takes Sestito's spot. On centre, I think so long as he shows he can play at this level he's got Vey beat on size and faceoff ability (I think the Canucks want Vey on the RW). Vey might simply be more "ready" (pace) as his selling point at C but I don't really see them as being in direct competition. He trumps Richardson on size too. (Though not FO, experience etc) So that leaves Horvat with 4 spots he could earn (3rd/4th LW or C). IMO that's VERY doable. Edited July 28, 2014 by J.R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Down by the River Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 The way Hunter uses Horvat is actually going to stunt his development if returned to the Knights next year. I'm not saying what Hunter is doing is wrong, but he plays Horvat every second or third shift. No way Horvat can push himself to play at top pace when he has such little time to recover between shifts. He has to be given an opportunity to work on his explosiveness, but won't be able to in junior when he's playing 25 minutes a night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plum Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Who are these people that are "satisfied"? I've seen more people on here overestimating Horvat's immediate abilities and slotting him in as THIS years 2C than settling for him as a career 3rd liner. As Avelanch mentioned...you're the only person in here that brought it up. He'll start out on the third (heck maybe even 4th) line, maybe even at wing (with less responsibility) and learn the NHL game, pace etc how to check, take faceoffs etc against men and slowly develop from there. From there his offense will slowly come over the next couple years from making good, smart plays and his natural, developing and existing skill set. I've seen lineups looking like: ________, McCann, Horvat, Gaunce. Horvat as the 3C, not that's not right. Horvat should become a 2nd line player, management shouldn't have a goal of Horvat to become a 3C nor should any other fan IMO. He's a top 10 pick! Starting on the 4th line or wing makes no sense. He's a centre, we drafted him because he's a 200 foot centre. Moving him back to centre after wing makes no sense either, I doubt he's better at wing. If you want him to get ready for the NHL pace starting at wing makes no different because it's easier defensively than centre and when he goes back to centre playing wing would be a big waste of time. Domi is a one dimensional offensive player. Rychel is just not as good as Horvat at anything except skating. Domi isn't one dimensional, he isn't great defensively but he does well enough. Also plays for Dale Hunter, have to play defence. Rychel scored more points than Horvat, he's better than Horvat at that too. well of course expectations change when you add new data points into a data set. I don't think that is right. 2nd line centre are my expectations and it seems right for a top 10 pick regardless of who comes into our team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
73 Percent Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 I've seen lineups looking like: ________, McCann, Horvat, Gaunce. Horvat as the 3C, not that's not right. Horvat should become a 2nd line player, management shouldn't have a goal of Horvat to become a 3C nor should any other fan IMO. He's a top 10 pick! Starting on the 4th line or wing makes no sense. He's a centre, we drafted him because he's a 200 foot centre. Moving him back to centre after wing makes no sense either, I doubt he's better at wing. If you want him to get ready for the NHL pace starting at wing makes no different because it's easier defensively than centre and when he goes back to centre playing wing would be a big waste of time. Domi isn't one dimensional, he isn't great defensively but he does well enough. Also plays for Dale Hunter, have to play defence. Rychel scored more points than Horvat, he's better than Horvat at that too. I don't think that is right. 2nd line centre are my expectations and it seems right for a top 10 pick regardless of who comes into our team.you couldn't be more wrong about domi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluesy_shoes Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 I was talking about his whole career not one season. If he's going to be a 3rd liner it's a fail of a pick, he has the potential to be more but people are getting more and more satisfied with him becoming a 3rd liner because we have McCann, Virtanen that were just drafted and a potential 2015 high 1st rounder. Horvat will earn his icetime with his ability to outbattle players. If you are matched up against first line players, you will be getting ~20 minutes a night, and those are top six minutes. From what I've seen of him, if he is on the powerplay, it will be to win faceoffs, to win puck battles down low, and to battle in front of the net. If he does play on the powerplay, he will definitely be a top six forward. Like I was saying before, it is better to think of drafting in terms of TOI and not conventional first line, second line, third line players. Kesler had more TOI per game than Henrik Sedin in 3 of the last 4 seasons. Henrik was indeed our "first line centre," but i would argue that the player who is on the ice more is the player who is more important to team success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plum Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 you couldn't be more wrong about domi. This year when I watched him, he made mistakes but more often than not he was in position. He was on his man, he backchecked and skated down to the defensive zone when he had to. If you don't believe me talk to these scouting reports: http://www.defendingbigd.com/2013/6/10/4405022/max-domi-scouting-report-2013-nhl-draft-profile http://lastwordonsports.com/2013/04/22/max-domi-2013-nhl-draft-player-profile-13/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plum Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Horvat will earn his icetime with his ability to outbattle players. If you are matched up against first line players, you will be getting ~20 minutes a night, and those are top six minutes. From what I've seen of him, if he is on the powerplay, it will be to win faceoffs, to win puck battles down low, and to battle in front of the net. If he does play on the powerplay, he will definitely be a top six forward. Like I was saying before, it is better to think of drafting in terms of TOI and not conventional first line, second line, third line players. Kesler had more TOI per game than Henrik Sedin in 3 of the last 4 seasons. Henrik was indeed our "first line centre," but i would argue that the player who is on the ice more is the player who is more important to team success. In the NHL? He'll get opportunities on the PP probably when injuries come to the more skilled players but I can't see him becoming a regular top 6 forward in the regular season. If he's good enough for the 3rd line centre spot than put him there but don't start him on the 4th line playing like a usual 4th liner. Give him hard times to play, start him in the defensive zone and netural zones often and let's see where he is at. Nonetheless, a 3rd liner is a fail pick for a top 10 pick. He'll be on the 3rd line spot because he isn't good enough offensively to be top 6. Still developing though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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