canuckistani Posted December 8, 2018 Share Posted December 8, 2018 9 minutes ago, khay said: I think except for that 41 goal season for Kesler, Horvat on average will be better than Kesler. Horvat has this heaviness to his game that Kesler didn't. And EP has all the tools to be better than Henrik, well except an identical hockey genius twin brother. That is because Horvat is about 10 pounds heavier and noticably faster. Ie, significantly more momentum than Kesler when playing the 'barging through' game. He also has a better shot than Kesler, as well as using his wingers better. So far where Kesler is ahead of Bo by a fair bit (both overall and comparing at the same age) is that Kesler was noticably better at killing penalties and defensive zone coverage. IMO Bo is already more ahead of Kesler in the offensive side of things than he is behind the defensive side of things at comparative ages. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-AJ- Posted December 8, 2018 Share Posted December 8, 2018 37 minutes ago, khay said: I think except for that 41 goal season for Kesler, Horvat on average will be better than Kesler. Horvat has this heaviness to his game that Kesler didn't. And EP has all the tools to be better than Henrik, well except an identical hockey genius twin brother. Entirely possible, though I'm still not convinced Bo's defensive game is at Kesler's old level. Kess not only had faceoffs but was a great all-around defensive centreman whereas Bo is mostly strong at faceoffs and decent defensively outside of that. This is no sleight to Bo, as we're comparing him to a Selke-winning player. Offensively, I see them as about equal right now. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khay Posted December 8, 2018 Share Posted December 8, 2018 7 hours ago, canuckistani said: That is because Horvat is about 10 pounds heavier and noticably faster. Ie, significantly more momentum than Kesler when playing the 'barging through' game. He also has a better shot than Kesler, as well as using his wingers better. So far where Kesler is ahead of Bo by a fair bit (both overall and comparing at the same age) is that Kesler was noticably better at killing penalties and defensive zone coverage. IMO Bo is already more ahead of Kesler in the offensive side of things than he is behind the defensive side of things at comparative ages. 7 hours ago, -AJ- said: Entirely possible, though I'm still not convinced Bo's defensive game is at Kesler's old level. Kess not only had faceoffs but was a great all-around defensive centreman whereas Bo is mostly strong at faceoffs and decent defensively outside of that. This is no sleight to Bo, as we're comparing him to a Selke-winning player. Offensively, I see them as about equal right now. Yes, Kesler was ahead of Bo on defensive side of the game at the same age. Kesler got to the NHL so quick because of his ability to kill penalties, play well at defensive side of the game. Bo on the other hand, got here because he played responsible and heavy game. His play at the defensive side of the game was OK but never spectacular even from the beginning and same could be said about his offensive game. But he was able to put his offensive game together faster than Kesler. And although he is not quite the elite defensive player Kesler was/is, but I'd say he is above average right now. So just doing a simple naive math, if Bo > average > Kesler on offence and Kesler > Bo > average on defence, then it's fair to say that overall, Bo may be ahead of where Kesler was at the same age because Kesler's offensive game was below average until his 4th full season (or draft + 6 season) whereas Horvat got there on arguably, his 2nd full season when he put up 0.5PPG (draft + 3). In fact, Bo being able to put up this kind of numbers now allows us to look beyond Kesler as comparison. I think among Bo's player type, the active players at the very top are Kopitar, Toewes, and Bergeron. All of these players being the main pivots for cup winning teams in the last 8 years. Among non-active players of recent memory in the same category as these three would be perhaps, Rod Brind'Amour. These players are good or near elite defensive players but also puts up 60-80 points in a season on a consistent basis. Obviously, Crosby would be at the very high end of the player spectrum in any player comparison, but Crosby is a generational player. And Datsyuk also would be at the high end of this player type comparison but Datsyuk was a player that could not really be defined as one type much like Crosby. And one notch below the top 3 would be Kesler, probably all by himself in that category for the last 6-7 years, being an elite defensive player like the top 3, but not quite having the capability to put up the points on a consistent basis as the top 3. Kesler would be closely followed by Ryan O'Reilly, Jordan Staal, and etc, players who put up offensive numbers similar to Kesler but slightly below Kesler on defensive side of the game. Player like Sutter would be even one level below the likes of O'Reilly and Staal due to offensive output although his defensive game would be on par. I think Horvat has matched or surpassed Kesler, O'Reilly and Staal on the offensive output and as his defensive game improves, he may reach the levels of the top 3 or be only slightly below the top 3. He seems like he will be able to match offensive output of the top 3 (60-80 point range) but slightly below the top 3 in defensive aspect of the game. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BananaMash Posted December 8, 2018 Share Posted December 8, 2018 9 hours ago, 48MPHSlapShot said: Imagine the type of numbers Bo would be putting up if we landed a legit top line winger to play with him, or Boeser had been playing with him all season and he was 100%. I would love to see Baertschi actually recover from his injury and be tried out with Horvat and Virtanen. Baertschi and Goldobin are both weird playmaking wingers, but Sven plays the straight line style of Bo and Jake a lot better than Goldobin can. I think it would be a good fit. Or maybe Roussel will stay over-producing on that line. That would be fun. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
73 Percent Posted December 8, 2018 Share Posted December 8, 2018 18 minutes ago, BananaMash said: I would love to see Baertschi actually recover from his injury and be tried out with Horvat and Virtanen. Baertschi and Goldobin are both weird playmaking wingers, but Sven plays the straight line style of Bo and Jake a lot better than Goldobin can. I think it would be a good fit. Or maybe Roussel will stay over-producing on that line. That would be fun. Man this is such a fun team when healthy 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BananaMash Posted December 8, 2018 Share Posted December 8, 2018 11 minutes ago, 73 Percent said: Man this is such a fun team when healthy I think they're quite fun in general. When we lose, it's generally the guys who wont be here in a year or two messing it up. Green's system can be frustrating occasionally, but more often than not I find the games to be a blast. Even when they're dinged up or losing 12 straight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Attila Umbrus Posted December 8, 2018 Share Posted December 8, 2018 23 minutes ago, BananaMash said: I think they're quite fun in general. When we lose, it's generally the guys who wont be here in a year or two messing it up. Green's system can be frustrating occasionally, but more often than not I find the games to be a blast. Even when they're dinged up or losing 12 straight. Agreed, and I think for all of peoples complaints about Green he is the right coach for us right now. He is a players coach, he understands what these kids are going through. I've loved how he has handled Virtanen, Baertchi, Goldobin, Hutton, etc. He's not going to get through to all of them but the ones that do buy into his development approach seem to really blossom. Unfortunately I don't know if Green's shelf life will see us past this development stage in time. But he is a great developmental coach and provides players with a sound platform to succeed. I also don't think we will truely as fans appreciate how much Green has done for this team until he's gone. On another note, I hope Green does stay and grow with our team. I look back to AV when he was coach, he came up with the guys from Manitoba and worked his way through the system as well. He wasn't perfect off the bat either. He was a very defensive minded coach right from the get go, but when he came to the NHL he was smart enough to know that he had to let the Sedins, Naslund, Bert, etc do their thing offensively. He didn't want to kill that side of them. I see the same in Green. As AV grew as a young NHL coach he learned more and more about the other teams in the leauge and found ways to shut them down. That takes time, I don't know why people expext Green to know everything right off the hop. He's learning too. And has shown willingness to grow. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuckistani Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 The way his game is shaping up this season, he should be nicknamed ' no home' or 'road-vat'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlwaysACanuckFan Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rekker Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Lol. Looking back at previous threads. Any of those that hated the Schneider trade or wanted to draft Nychuskin instead still want to go that route? I liked both moves at the time and it's one of the few times I've been right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuckledraggin Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 What are they waiting for? Have a mid season ceremony where Henrik pins the C on his chest. Do we need to wait for next year? Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-AJ- Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 1 hour ago, canuckledraggin said: What are they waiting for? Have a mid season ceremony where Henrik pins the C on his chest. Do we need to wait for next year? Why? More storybook I guess. It's also when the celebration of the 50th year begins, so it lines up nicely along with how Hank was awarded the captaincy at the start of the celebration for the 40th year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuckledraggin Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 17 minutes ago, -AJ- said: More storybook I guess. It's also when the celebration of the 50th year begins, so it lines up nicely along with how Hank was awarded the captaincy at the start of the celebration for the 40th year. I guess. Maybe it doesn't matter in the locker room and maybe it will mean more for Henrik to pass the torch at that time, but it really is prolonging the inevitable. Horvat is the Captain of this team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rindiculous Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 4 hours ago, rekker said: Lol. Looking back at previous threads. Any of those that hated the Schneider trade or wanted to draft Nychuskin instead still want to go that route? I liked both moves at the time and it's one of the few times I've been right. I don't know, I was young then so I didn't have much of opinion of stuff happening off the ice, but I did know this trade happened and thought we could have gotten more. And overall I think we could have. Imagine having a Horvat plus another bonafide blue chip prospect that would now be a regular NHLer like the Oilers were offering us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rekker Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 3 minutes ago, Rindiculous said: I don't know, I was young then so I didn't have much of opinion of stuff happening off the ice, but I did know this trade happened and thought we could have gotten more. And overall I think we could have. Imagine having a Horvat plus another bonafide blue chip prospect that would now be a regular NHLer like the Oilers were offering us. At the time it was the highest draft pick ever traded for a goalie in NHL history, and still is. I liked the trade at the time but I understand I was in the minority. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rindiculous Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 (edited) 32 minutes ago, rekker said: At the time it was the highest draft pick ever traded for a goalie in NHL history, and still is. I liked the trade at the time but I understand I was in the minority. Is it really? I would have been a lot better though if we took the better offer. Sure Horvat's great, but we could have so much easily gotten more. Edited December 11, 2018 by Rindiculous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 13 hours ago, Rindiculous said: Is it really? I would have been a lot better though if we took the better offer. Sure Horvat's great, but we could have so much easily gotten more. Based on absolutely nothing lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rindiculous Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 9 minutes ago, aGENT said: Based on absolutely nothing lol. Umm, based on some trusted hockey insiders. One said that Edmonton offered the Canucks their first round pick (which was higher than 9th), a blue chip prospect, and another pick. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 1 minute ago, Rindiculous said: Umm, based on some trusted hockey insiders. One said that Edmonton offered the Canucks their first round pick (which was higher than 9th), a blue chip prospect, and another pick. I've got some swamp land to sell you too 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kootenay Gold Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 46 minutes ago, aGENT said: I've got some swamp land to sell you too Agent... I thought you were selling your ocean front property in Arizona... my mistake 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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